Sure, but it's not a general property of LBB2 hulls, just a few of the most heavily discounted standard hulls.For most of the small hulls LBB2 is going to be cheaper. 100/200/400 ton hulls are discounted at 80%/60%/60%
400 ton hulls are still a better deal in LBB2, they are discounted at 60% in LBB 2. And for most games you are going to want a smaller ship the passenger and cargo capacity are not going to be there to support a larger ship.So, LBB2 hulls.Sure, but it's not a general property of LBB2 hulls, just a few of the most heavily discounted standard hulls.
In general LBB5 hulls are cheaper than LBB2 hulls.
It's really only the Scout and Free Trader (and variants), the only LBB2 ships possible with the two smallest standard hulls, that can benefit from that.
At 400+ Dt LBB5 ships can offset the standard hull discount with larger payload and/or bigger standard design discount, with the same LBB2 drives.
Using the 1.1 x cost for minor modifications from TCS (p.34) to convert 20 dTons of fuel to cargo … the cost for the HULL is MCr 0.1 x 20 dT x 1.1 = MCr 2.2 of your missing MCr 2.982 (pretty close).So theoretically you've got:
That gives 21.608 MCr which is 2.982 MCr under the quoted cost.
- Surplus Scout 29.43 MCr, discounted 40% --> 17.658
- Remove 4 state rooms 2.2 MCr
- Add 4 Double occupancy staterooms 1.1 MCr
- Swap Air Raft for Buggy +0.15 MCr
- Pulse laser +0.5 MCr
- Remove fuel tanks/hull space/instuments ????
You could add a 10% fee for ????? {10% of base ship cost} and 1% architect's fee,
Which would get you to 24.79651 MCr, Which is close to the final cost, But I'm not happy with the 10% fee, It's just a cost I pulled out of my hat to justify raising the cost.
400 ton hulls are still a better deal in LBB2, they are discounted at 60% in LBB 2. And for most games you are going to want a smaller ship the passenger and cargo capacity are not going to be there to support a larger ship.So, LBB2 hulls.
The big flaw for LBB 2 hulls is the wasted space due to the fixed size engineering section.
M1-4611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 63,2 400 Dton
bearing Crew=4
batteries TL=12
Cargo=261 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=1
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard No subsidy
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 63,18 kCr 12 636 kCr 263 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 126 360 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 25 000 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 8 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 8 160 Cargo Cr 208 000
Maintenance Cr 2 527
Berthing Cr 400
Summa kCr 170 kCr 208
Income potential per jump kCr 38
Yearly yield on down payment 7,4%
M1-4611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 66,0 400 Dton
bearing Crew=4
batteries TL=12
Cargo=280 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=1
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard No subsidy
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 65,98 kCr 13 195 kCr 275 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 131 952 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 5 000 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 8 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 8 160 Cargo Cr 224 000
Maintenance Cr 2 639
Berthing Cr 400
Summa kCr 156 kCr 224
Income potential per jump kCr 68
Yearly yield on down payment 12,9%
Except during a refit:LBB5 doesn't really have separate hull sections, so you can fit whatever you want however you want.
TCS, p34:
The degree to which a ship may be changed is limited. Power plant, M-drive, J-drive, and spinal mount weapons may not be increased in tonnage. There may be no additional launch facilities built (although they may be removed). Armor and configuration may not be changed. The number and size of weapons bays may not be changed.
I made it streamlined to make it usable.A stripped LBB2 400 ton cargo haul, similar to what you seem to have built is going to come in at about 60 MCr,
M1-4611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 63,2 400 Dton
bearing Crew=4
batteries TL=12
Cargo=261 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=1
Single Occupancy LBB2 design 261 70,2
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Streamlined 400 Dt 4 400
Configuration Flattened Sphe 6 20
Scoops Streamlined
Engineering 25
Jump Drive B 1 1 15 20
Manoeuvre D B 1 1 3 8
Power Plant B 1 1 7 16
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-1, 4 weeks 1 50
Bridge 1 20 2
Computer m/1 1 1 1 2
Staterooms 4 16 2
Cargo 261
Empty hardpoint 2 2 0,2
Nominal Cost MCr 70,20 Sum: 261 70,2
Class Cost MCr 7,72 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 63,18
Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 2
Passengers Mid 0 4 Engineers 1
Low 0 Gunners 0
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 1
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 0 Marines 0
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard No subsidy
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 63,18 kCr 12 636 kCr 263 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 126 360 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 25 000 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 8 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 8 160 Cargo Cr 208 000
Maintenance Cr 2 527
Berthing Cr 400
Summa kCr 170 kCr 208
Income potential per jump kCr 38
Yearly yield on down payment 7,4%
Unless you use the same LBB2 drives, with a more expensive streamlined hull...An LBB5 equivalent is going to be close to 80MCR,
M1-4611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 65,9 400 Dton
bearing Crew=4
batteries TL=12
Cargo=280 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=1
Single Occupancy 280 82,4
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Streamlined Custom 4 400
Configuration Flattened Sphe 6 32
Scoops Streamlined 0,4
Jump Drive B 1 1 15 20
Manoeuvre D B 1 1 3 8
Power Plant B 1 1 7 16
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-1, 4 weeks 1 50
Purifier 1 6 0,0
Bridge 1 20 2
Computer m/1 1 1 1 2
Staterooms 4 16 2
Cargo 280
Empty hardpoint 2 2
Nominal Cost MCr 82,43 Sum: 280 82,4
Class Cost MCr 17,31 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 65,94
Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 2
Passengers Mid 0 4 Engineers 1
Low 0 Gunners 0
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 1
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 0 Marines 0
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard No subsidy
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 65,94 kCr 13 189 kCr 275 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 131 888 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 5 000 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 8 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 8 160 Cargo Cr 224 000
Maintenance Cr 2 638
Berthing Cr 400
Summa kCr 156 kCr 224
Income potential per jump kCr 68
Yearly yield on down payment 12,9%
Quite, that is the offsetting factor.But that's largely down to the greater LBB5 discount compounding on the total ship cost, not the Hull cost.
At 400+ Dt LBB5 ships can offset the standard hull discount with larger payload and/or bigger standard design discount, with the same LBB2 drives.
I made it streamlined to make it usable.
M1-4611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 63,2 400 Dton
bearing Crew=4
batteries TL=12
Cargo=261 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=1
Single Occupancy LBB2 design 261 70,2
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Streamlined 400 Dt 4 400
Configuration Flattened Sphe 6 20
Scoops Streamlined
Engineering 25
Jump Drive B 1 1 15 20
Manoeuvre D B 1 1 3 8
Power Plant B 1 1 7 16
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-1, 4 weeks 1 50
Bridge 1 20 2
Computer m/1 1 1 1 2
Staterooms 4 16 2
Cargo 261
Empty hardpoint 2 2 0,2
Nominal Cost MCr 70,20 Sum: 261 70,2
Class Cost MCr 7,72 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 63,18
Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 2
Passengers Mid 0 4 Engineers 1
Low 0 Gunners 0
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 1
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 0 Marines 0
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard No subsidy
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 63,18 kCr 12 636 kCr 263 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 126 360 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 25 000 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 8 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 8 160 Cargo Cr 208 000
Maintenance Cr 2 527
Berthing Cr 400
Summa kCr 170 kCr 208
Income potential per jump kCr 38
Yearly yield on down payment 7,4% [/CODE][/SPOILER]
Unless you use the same LBB2 drives, with a more expensive streamlined hull...
Code:M1-4611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 65,9 400 Dton bearing Crew=4 batteries TL=12 Cargo=280 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=1
Spoiler:Code:Single Occupancy 280 82,4 USP # Dton Cost Hull, Streamlined Custom 4 400 Configuration Flattened Sphe 6 32 Scoops Streamlined 0,4 Jump Drive B 1 1 15 20 Manoeuvre D B 1 1 3 8 Power Plant B 1 1 7 16 Fuel, #J, #weeks J-1, 4 weeks 1 50 Purifier 1 6 0,0 Bridge 1 20 2 Computer m/1 1 1 1 2 Staterooms 4 16 2 Cargo 280 Empty hardpoint 2 2 Nominal Cost MCr 82,43 Sum: 280 82,4 Class Cost MCr 17,31 Valid ≥0 ≥0 Ship Cost MCr 65,94 Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 2 Passengers Mid 0 4 Engineers 1 Low 0 Gunners 0 Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 1 # Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0 Marines 0 Marines 0 Estimated Economy of Ship Standard No subsidy Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled MCr 65,94 kCr 13 189 kCr 275 80% Expenses per jump Revenue Bank Cr 131 888 High Cr 0 Fuel Cr 5 000 Middle Cr 0 Life Support Cr 8 000 Low Cr 0 Salaries Cr 8 160 Cargo Cr 224 000 Maintenance Cr 2 638 Berthing Cr 400 Summa kCr 156 kCr 224 Income potential per jump kCr 68 Yearly yield on down payment 12,9%
Quite, that is the offsetting factor.
Flattened sphere is fully streamlined. Close Structure is partially streamlined.A flattened sphere is -20% cost, and base cost is 40MCr, so 32 MCR, not 20 MCr. You should be using a Closed Structure, which offers the best discount of the LBB5 Hulls, -40% or 24 MCr, unless you are willing to forego streamlining.
The LBB2 standard hulls are not streamlined at all by default, it has to be added at MCr 1/100Dt.If you want to be able to land on a planet, which the LBB2 hull can, you are going to be restricted to Cone or Wedge which cost 44 or 48 MCR respectively.
I don't care if the hull component is cheaper, I care if the ship is cheaper or more usable.The only way a LBB5 400 ton hull will be cheaper than a LBB2 hull is by sacrificing some capabilities.
At 400+ Dt LBB5 ships can offset the standard hull discount with larger payload and/or bigger standard design discount, with the same LBB2 drives.
I don't care if the hull component is cheaper, I care if the ship is cheaper or more usable.The only way a LBB5 400 ton hull will be cheaper than a LBB2 hull is by sacrificing some capabilities.
LBB5 has another trick that my spreadsheet included by default: Fuel purifier.But in the end, the LBB5 ship is more expensive, and the extra cargo space doesn't necessarily offset that. On the same route, with the same cargo both ships will net the same revenue and the LBB2 design's lower cost will win out.
There are no purifier component in LBB2, they are automatic for "military and quasi-military starships".And, if you are going to fit the fuel purifier to the LBB5 design you can fit it to also fit it to the LBB 2 design.
LBB2'81, p6:
Military and quasi-military starships often use unrefined fuel because it is more available, and because their drives are specially built to use it.
Sure, the Referee or "super-referee" can rule anything they want, but I, as a lowly ship designer, can't.None of that prohibits you from fitting a fuel purifying plant. It only says that military ships' drives are built to use unrefined fuel.
There is no prohibition against fitting fuel purification plants to LBB2 designs, Infact there are canonical examples, both the Broadsword and Subsidized Merchant have cannonically been shown fitted with fuel purification plants.
I used these rules for when my characters purchased a surplus x-boat tender and added an ore processor, converting it to a milling ship for their asteroid mine.For reference:
Refitting rules in TCS, p. 34:
Major (Drive swaps): 1.5 x cost of the new drives, 1/4 the time needed to build the ship from scratch.
Minor (everything else); 1.1 x cost of new fittings, 1/10 of original ship build time.
The LBB2 standard hulls are not streamlined at all by default, it has to be added at MCr 1/100Dt.
TTB says the same thing as LBB2:In fact, LLB2 (or at least TTB, that is the version I have) does not care about streamlining, ...
TTB, p60:
OPTIONAL COMPONENTS
___The following are optional components. Where not present, they may be added to a standard design by the purchaser.
___Atmospheric Streamlining: The hulls specified are rough deep space configurations incapable of entering atmospheres. They may be streamlined by so indicating in the design plans, at a cost of MCr1 per 100 tons of ship.
TTB, p64:
___Subsidized Merchant (type R): Using a 400-ton hull, the subsidized merchant (nicknamed fat trader) is a trading vessel intended to meet the commercial needs of clusters of worlds. It has jump drive-C, maneuver drive-C, and power plant-C, giving performance of jump-I and I-G acceleration. Fuel tankage for 50 tons supports the power plant and allows one jump-1. Adjacent to the bridge is a computer Model/1. There are thirteen staterooms and nine low berths. The ship has two hardpoints and two tons set aside for fire control. No weapons are mounted. There is one ship's vehicle: a 20-ton launch. Cargo capacity is 200 tons. The ship is streamlined.
___The fat trader requires a crew of five:
Oops...TTB says the same thing as LBB2: