Missle Tubes in Traveller
- Thread starter endersig
- Start date
Well Traveller doesn't have the Missile Tube as on it's own per say, it does however have missile turret weapons and small to large scale missile bays. They are very common in Traveller.
TheEngineer
SOC-14 1K
Could somebody explain the missile tube/missile turret difference to me ?
Madarin Dude
SOC-13
Tube is just what it sounds like a missile turret is like what you see on guided missile cruisers and frigates. They are holders that can pivot.
TheEngineer
SOC-14 1K
Hmmm, is it of great value to pivot a weapon, that maneuvers itself and has to go several thousend kms to the target anyway ?
(uhh, this question comes just 19 years after starting the game
(uhh, this question comes just 19 years after starting the game
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Actually yes. Because even a few seconds going in the wrong direction can take you quite a bit of time to compensate for.
It also depends on the way seeker heads work in YTU. Real world examples of the difference would be the AIM-7F Sparrow Missile Versus the Sea Sparrow version. THe AIM-7 (Used in both Launchers) is a Passive Radar Homing Missile. The Seeker head looks out the front of the missile. In order for the missile to hit the target it has to see the radar reflection off the target to go to it. Which means the seeker haed needs to be pointed at the target from Launch to Impact/Detonation. In a typical Air Launch the plane is pointed at the target so you can only fire forward. In the Sea Sparrow version the mount rotates so it provides 360 degrees of capability. (Well minus any superstructure that might be in the way.)
Newer ship launched missiles are vertically launched (AEGIS system) but still have to aquire the target from the front of the missile. They are launched balistically in the general direction of the target before aquiring it after already getting airborne. At shorter ranges it is likely to cause engagement problems. The nice thing about a turret is you can lock onto your target and get a lock before letting the missile go. (And you know your missile has the target before launch.)
In the Honor Harrington Series you have Missile Tubes. You, at least until later in the series, have to point them in the general direction of the enemy. And even in the later books you can't fire both Broadsides at a target in front of or behind you.
It also depends on the way seeker heads work in YTU. Real world examples of the difference would be the AIM-7F Sparrow Missile Versus the Sea Sparrow version. THe AIM-7 (Used in both Launchers) is a Passive Radar Homing Missile. The Seeker head looks out the front of the missile. In order for the missile to hit the target it has to see the radar reflection off the target to go to it. Which means the seeker haed needs to be pointed at the target from Launch to Impact/Detonation. In a typical Air Launch the plane is pointed at the target so you can only fire forward. In the Sea Sparrow version the mount rotates so it provides 360 degrees of capability. (Well minus any superstructure that might be in the way.)
Newer ship launched missiles are vertically launched (AEGIS system) but still have to aquire the target from the front of the missile. They are launched balistically in the general direction of the target before aquiring it after already getting airborne. At shorter ranges it is likely to cause engagement problems. The nice thing about a turret is you can lock onto your target and get a lock before letting the missile go. (And you know your missile has the target before launch.)
In the Honor Harrington Series you have Missile Tubes. You, at least until later in the series, have to point them in the general direction of the enemy. And even in the later books you can't fire both Broadsides at a target in front of or behind you.
Originally posted by TheEngineer:
Hmmm, is it of great value to pivot a weapon, that maneuvers itself and has to go several thousend kms to the target anyway ?
(uhh, this question comes just 19 years after starting the game
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Once again from the foggy recesses of my mind...
I have typed some of it before here so it may be familiar to some and a search might turn it up though it might be a bit differently remembered
And of course I keep stealing ideas 
but I think some of them are mine...
So, imtu the standard missiles (50kg) are really nothing more than a munition. A hyper-velocity smart munition but basically just a big bullet. There is very little in the way of thrusters (terminal aiming) and the turret launcher is what gives it the huge kick that sends it to the target so yes it needs to aimed. These are the civilian missiles and are conventional warheads.
Next up from these is a heavy missile (150kg) which is a paramilitary or military version of the above. It fits in the same volume as the normally 3 ready standard missiles per launcher. Being heavier the launcher is used just for a primer kick and then an onboard solid rocket takes over for a short boost phase. Again this all happens right at launch so the turret must be aimed. The larger payload allows a bigger warhead and advanced electronics which gives this missile the same punch as 3 standard missiles and the defender is required to make three successful defenses to stop it. The paramilitary version, available to accredited mercenary operations, is a conventional warhead. The military only version is also available in a nuclear warhead version. It is illegal for civilian ships to possess either of these. (see pg.245 ed.1 of T20 for a picture that to me shows a double missile launcher with two heavy missiles just fired).
Imtu missiles have the long range (as listed) but because of the high velocity they hit (if not stopped) at the end of the turn. I don't do vectors for missiles. By comparison the reason energy weapons take a full turn to hit is beacuase they are saturating a cone of probability with lots of shots. I worked it out a little bit ago for T20 and think I came up with a shot a minute based on converting to vehicle scale.
The only actual maneuvering missiles imtu are the full size bay weapon torpedos which are about 1ton each (450kg of payload and 450kg of thrusters). These are what I would describe as the guided or smart missile you are describing. The bay launcher is used for loading and popping these. I think I worked out 1 per turn (single tube) for 50ton bays (which hold 25 torpedoes) and two per turn (two tubes) for 100ton bays (which hold 50 torpedoes). These do not need to be aimed and maneuver to the target. They have advanced stealth and electronics and multiple warheads, conventional only for paramilitary with a nuclear option for military. I also use these for drop capsule launchers, replacing the warheads with the BD Trooper.
Something like that. I'm still ironing out the wrinkles and need to compile it all so I stop confusing old and new since it's been in development for some 20 years (it's back to the drawing boards to check everytime they change the rules). Now with T20 it's about come full circle back to the basic CT ideas 
I have typed some of it before here so it may be familiar to some and a search might turn it up though it might be a bit differently remembered
but I think some of them are mine...So, imtu the standard missiles (50kg) are really nothing more than a munition. A hyper-velocity smart munition but basically just a big bullet. There is very little in the way of thrusters (terminal aiming) and the turret launcher is what gives it the huge kick that sends it to the target so yes it needs to aimed. These are the civilian missiles and are conventional warheads.
Next up from these is a heavy missile (150kg) which is a paramilitary or military version of the above. It fits in the same volume as the normally 3 ready standard missiles per launcher. Being heavier the launcher is used just for a primer kick and then an onboard solid rocket takes over for a short boost phase. Again this all happens right at launch so the turret must be aimed. The larger payload allows a bigger warhead and advanced electronics which gives this missile the same punch as 3 standard missiles and the defender is required to make three successful defenses to stop it. The paramilitary version, available to accredited mercenary operations, is a conventional warhead. The military only version is also available in a nuclear warhead version. It is illegal for civilian ships to possess either of these. (see pg.245 ed.1 of T20 for a picture that to me shows a double missile launcher with two heavy missiles just fired).
Imtu missiles have the long range (as listed) but because of the high velocity they hit (if not stopped) at the end of the turn. I don't do vectors for missiles. By comparison the reason energy weapons take a full turn to hit is beacuase they are saturating a cone of probability with lots of shots. I worked it out a little bit ago for T20 and think I came up with a shot a minute based on converting to vehicle scale.
The only actual maneuvering missiles imtu are the full size bay weapon torpedos which are about 1ton each (450kg of payload and 450kg of thrusters). These are what I would describe as the guided or smart missile you are describing. The bay launcher is used for loading and popping these. I think I worked out 1 per turn (single tube) for 50ton bays (which hold 25 torpedoes) and two per turn (two tubes) for 100ton bays (which hold 50 torpedoes). These do not need to be aimed and maneuver to the target. They have advanced stealth and electronics and multiple warheads, conventional only for paramilitary with a nuclear option for military. I also use these for drop capsule launchers, replacing the warheads with the BD Trooper.
Something like that. I'm still ironing out the wrinkles and need to compile it all so I stop confusing old and new
since it's been in development for some 20 years (it's back to the drawing boards to check everytime they change the rules). Now with T20 it's about come full circle back to the basic CT ideas 
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
In several old CT ship deckplans, the Kinunir especially springs to mind, the missile "turrets" the ship is equipped with are shown on the deckplans as submarine like torpedo launchers.
IMTU I have ruled that the "missile turret" is a hyper velocity rail gun which launches the 50kg "missile" in the direction of the target. The extreme acceleration of the rail gun is able to compensate for the vector differences between the attacker and target ship.
The missile has a limited maneuver capability for terminal guidance before it explodes and releases a swarm of penetrators.
The larger missiles fired by missile bays are still accelerated by rail guns and have more maneuvering capability.
Both types may be launched at a distance and cruise on their imparted vector towards a target area before the terminal guidance kicks in, and due to their small size they are very difficult to see coming...
IMTU I have ruled that the "missile turret" is a hyper velocity rail gun which launches the 50kg "missile" in the direction of the target. The extreme acceleration of the rail gun is able to compensate for the vector differences between the attacker and target ship.
The missile has a limited maneuver capability for terminal guidance before it explodes and releases a swarm of penetrators.
The larger missiles fired by missile bays are still accelerated by rail guns and have more maneuvering capability.
Both types may be launched at a distance and cruise on their imparted vector towards a target area before the terminal guidance kicks in, and due to their small size they are very difficult to see coming...
TheEngineer
SOC-14 1K
Many thanks Bhoins & Dan & Sigg from the Heawy Weapons Information Center for this information.
Hmmm, the missile topic really seems to be a bit under-developed in the old releases
.
At least, those close distance problems somehow fit to the +1 DM for MT missile attacks, if the target is beyond planetary range.
Really a long way to go for the rocket.
What size would a real world missile have, which should be able to go that far ?
Hmmm, the missile topic really seems to be a bit under-developed in the old releases
At least, those close distance problems somehow fit to the +1 DM for MT missile attacks, if the target is beyond planetary range.
Really a long way to go for the rocket.
What size would a real world missile have, which should be able to go that far ?
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
More than welcome Engineer
There was the old CT special supplement in JTAS that detailed missiles, but yeah other than that not much.
iirc a modern cruise missile comes in around 1000-2000kg and is kind of what I modeled the torps on, with much higher tech getting the increased range and such. I think the cruise missiles range is a couple hundred kms but I'm really not remembering the stats too clearly. A little luck with google should pop some specifics.
There was the old CT special supplement in JTAS that detailed missiles, but yeah other than that not much.
iirc a modern cruise missile comes in around 1000-2000kg and is kind of what I modeled the torps on, with much higher tech getting the increased range and such. I think the cruise missiles range is a couple hundred kms but I'm really not remembering the stats too clearly. A little luck with google should pop some specifics.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Rats, Dan mentioned SS3 Missiles before I could
I also like the way missiles were handled in TNE, derived from Traveller 2300. I would have liked impact variants as well as the nuclear bomb pumped x-ray laser warhead missiles though.
I also like the way missiles were handled in TNE, derived from Traveller 2300. I would have liked impact variants as well as the nuclear bomb pumped x-ray laser warhead missiles though.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
As well as missiles IMTU I have 5-10t drone missiles.
These are remote operated/robotic small craft, armoured to withstand anti-missile fire, equipped with their own decoy/sandcaster launchers, and fitted with several MIRV-like contact detonating nuclear warheads and a large onboard nuclear warhead in a damper box to protect it from external nuclear damper fields.
These things cost a lot, but one of them can criple a capital ship if it gets through. It gives those anti-missile fighers/ escort vessels, anti-missile missiles and anti-missile energy weapons something to worry about
These are remote operated/robotic small craft, armoured to withstand anti-missile fire, equipped with their own decoy/sandcaster launchers, and fitted with several MIRV-like contact detonating nuclear warheads and a large onboard nuclear warhead in a damper box to protect it from external nuclear damper fields.
These things cost a lot, but one of them can criple a capital ship if it gets through. It gives those anti-missile fighers/ escort vessels, anti-missile missiles and anti-missile energy weapons something to worry about
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Real world Missiles with Planetary range? OK the Cruise Missile mentioned above depending on payload and sensor package had a design range of around 1500 miles. (At least these were the original numbers, reality may have changed things a bit.) THat was against a stationary target with no need for search. Against a mobile target, like an opposing surface fleet, the range was down to around 500 miles. These numbers are old. (Early stages of the Tomahawk project.) Based on the engine capabilities of the F22 (even the unclassified information) there appears to be a quantum leap in engine effeciency recently and the next generation of Cruise Missiles will be even longer ranged even if none of those changes came to the Tomahawk system. (Doubtful as most of the inventory has been blown through at least twice.)
Given advances in technology 1/10th of a displacement ton, (in space does actual mass really matter?) seems reasonable. Further in space, because of a lack of friction and no need for lift, a missile's engine need not be constantly operating for longer ranges. A smart missile, (and we are already almost at the smart enough stage to do this now) will know when it needs its drive on and not. You are only burning fuel while you are maneuvering. So a missile can accelerate during the boost phase, shut down its engines or drop a stage, and coast at high velocity towards the target, then use its engines to maneuver and hit the target at the other end of its run. In some cases having an extremely high velocity is a good thing but momentum is a bitch and at too high a velocity it is fairly easy for a target to get out of the way. Relative velocity and acceleration are the more important things. Hal and I had this discussion over in the fleet forum.
I think you will find that no matter how many times you ask the question as to how missiles work in Traveller you will always get different answers. I also think you will be hard pressed to find three people that do missiles the same way in their particular Traveller Universes.
Given advances in technology 1/10th of a displacement ton, (in space does actual mass really matter?) seems reasonable. Further in space, because of a lack of friction and no need for lift, a missile's engine need not be constantly operating for longer ranges. A smart missile, (and we are already almost at the smart enough stage to do this now) will know when it needs its drive on and not. You are only burning fuel while you are maneuvering. So a missile can accelerate during the boost phase, shut down its engines or drop a stage, and coast at high velocity towards the target, then use its engines to maneuver and hit the target at the other end of its run. In some cases having an extremely high velocity is a good thing but momentum is a bitch and at too high a velocity it is fairly easy for a target to get out of the way. Relative velocity and acceleration are the more important things. Hal and I had this discussion over in the fleet forum.
I think you will find that no matter how many times you ask the question as to how missiles work in Traveller you will always get different answers. I also think you will be hard pressed to find three people that do missiles the same way in their particular Traveller Universes.
Originally posted by TheEngineer:
Many thanks Bhoins & Dan & Sigg from the Heawy Weapons Information Center for this information.
Hmmm, the missile topic really seems to be a bit under-developed in the old releases.
At least, those close distance problems somehow fit to the +1 DM for MT missile attacks, if the target is beyond planetary range.
Really a long way to go for the rocket.
What size would a real world missile have, which should be able to go that far ?
fredofmars
SOC-12
I wrote an article on missile magazines that relates to this topic.
Freelance Traveller: Missile Magazines For High Guard
Specific sections of relevance to this topic are:
Turret and Bay Missiles Compared
Large Bay Missile Derivation
- Joseph
Freelance Traveller: Missile Magazines For High Guard
Specific sections of relevance to this topic are:
Turret and Bay Missiles Compared
Large Bay Missile Derivation
- Joseph
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
A missile tube like this is very similar to a smallcraft launch port - so if a 10 ton fighter can be launched why not a 10 ton missile/drone?
Jeff M. Hopper
SOC-14 1K
If you do this, may I suggest that you include rules allowing you to launch drop troops using this same launcher. A drop capsule would be about the same size as a 500kg missile IMHO.
And, no, I'm not talking about the infamous Vargr boarding torpedo.
a vehicle constantly accelerating at 6G will require 53 minutes to traverse one light second. if it coasts it will take many hours to traverse one light second. before missiles can be used in traveller it must first be decided what the sensor rules are, and then what ranges energy weapons have using these sensor rules. then it becomes possible to decide if missiles have any role in space combat.
imtu missiles are similar in use and function to the japanese long lance of world war two.
