"Marching In Place?" or "Wither the GT ATU?"

[rancke]

IRIS became canonical when the author took the helm for developing MT IIRC. Let's face it, it's no worse than the rest of the fan based stuff (i.e. DGP) that became part of MT canon.

The quality is not the issue.

TNE sort of retconned it away - but then TNE also retconned that all Traveller ships had always been equipped with HEPlaR drives rather than fusion rockets (HG1) or thruster plates (MT).

Survival Margin was a transition product. And IIRC it was devoid of any rules material at all. And TNE's most egregious retcons were retconned in turn. The bits that weren't are still canon.

So choose your retcons with care...

Unless a retcon has internal inconsistencies, I go with the most recent. Sometimes I do so with pangs of regret. I may even try to persuade TPTB to re-retcon it, but until and unless this is done, the most recent retcon is it.

Well... sometimes I'm so morally certain that something new is a mistake and not a retcon -- that surely the author could NOT have been serious -- that I may try to use the old version anyway, but when I do, I always point that out to the editor I'm dealing with.


Hans

 

[LeperColony]

Survival Margin was a transition product. And IIRC it was devoid of any rules material at all. And TNE's most egregious retcons were retconned in turn. The bits that weren't are still canon.

It had some rules in the back for converting MT characters to TNE, but essentially you're right.

The thing is, I just don't feel that the IRIS makes a lot of sense. I haven't read the Challenge articles (got to get those cds I guess...), but if they have such a central role in Imperial succession, why is it that the Emperor has never heard of them? I understand they are also a conspiracy of spies and psychics, but they claim the legal right, indeed the responsibility to vet the claims of Imperial heirs.

Nothing that central to Imperial ceremonial would be secret, even if its true working were far more extensive. However obscure or illegal IRIS's methods or actual activities, every single Imperial accession would have an IRIS proclamation. So even if the agency's activities were secret, it's existence couldn't be. Otherwise, there's no way its proclamations would have an legitimacy.

 

[AndreaV]

If I wanted to incorporate IRIS into a game I'd go along the lines that it did exist and was important under Arbelleta while she was "trying to find the legitimate heir," but after she was proclaimed Empress it was wound down. However nobody ever got round to formally disbanding it, so it continued to exist as a minor commitee tucked in some obscure corner, totally irrelevant and unkown to most people (including the Emperor.) However along came the rebellion and the current head (presumably some minor placeholding noble) saw his/her chance to become "a player" and recruited a group of similar nobles to make a play as kingmakers.

As usual YKmMV and IYTU :devil:

 

[MCEvans]

Boy, did I set off some fireworks! Sorry.

But I like IRIS , so ...

The best estimates for IRIS's manpower is/was less than 500,000 and about a 20% of that is outside the Imperium, 70% working in office buildings at the Domain level, the remaining 10% BlackOps and complete deny-ability about who or what they are.

The face of IRIS are (IMO) about 12-15 people as Senior Regents and one of them is the High Regent. To most people the Regency (as an office or position) is a ceremonial office with no real power and was created after the Civil War for show. Stepheron could have looked on them as such. The real power of IRIS only comes into full effect when there are multiple claimants to the throne, and when was the last time that happened? After 450+ years I even see the IRIS's total people power at less than 300,000 spread over 7 Domains that averages to just over 600 per subsector even the MoJ has more than that. So even if legally they should be in charge how is going to listen to them. Some might so as to avoid 'taking sides' or to save man and materials.
Retired IRIS operatives are like the Scouts on Detached Duty. Let the bosses know what you are doing and maybe we can help or if we need something and you are in the area we pay you for your services.

I gave this as a possible reason for the GURPS time-line becouse it gave a link to time before CT and gave a continuity between the two and if IRIS was doing its job right nobody knows that they did anything.

Besides anybody have any other ideas that lead to GT as apposed to MT?

 

[AndreaV]

Having WAY too much time on my hands...

What we know:
1) Somebody blew up Dulinor on his way to assassinate Strephon on 131-1116
2) Strephon was not on Capital at the time but off visiting Longbow and didn't arrive back till 212-1116 (71 days or 10 jumps after the assassination).
3) Between those two dates the following happened: several high ranking (and assumably in on the plot) officers in the Ilelish Guard Regiment are replaced, Norris and Isis are formally appointed to Archducal rank, Prince Varian decides to leave Capital.

What does this give us?
It looks very much like somebody other than Strephon organised all this and did so without Strephon's direct approval. The question is who? as its very likely the POD revolves around them. The individual would need to have Strephon's complete and utter trust and confidence.

And the Nominees are: (drum roll please)
a) Iolanthe
b) Iphegenia
c) Varian
d) Isis
e) Tranian
f) Norris

Tranian, while extremely well trusted by Strephon, lacks the "clout" to to pull a stunt like this without some serious repercussions even if right. Isis and Varian are not close enough to Strephon to even try it. And Norris is off in Deneb and again not close enough to Strephon.

This leaves Iolanthe and Iphegenia. Iphegenia is too young and again probably lacks enough of Strephon's trust. Leaving... Iolanthe.

So if we assume Iolanthe arranged "the hit" and subsequent events we need to figure why. Presumably somebody or something tipped her off. It would have to be somebody she trusted completely (even for Iolanthe, this is a huge stunt to gamble on). The candidates are the same five as above.

Norris is in Deneb, Isis is close to Iphegenia not Iolanthe, and again Varian isn't close to Iolanthe either. This leaves Tranian and Iphegenia. Iphegenia has the edge in trust, but Tranian is still in the running. Actually to convince Iolanthe to act would probably take more than either one on their own, so lets go with both Tranian and Iphegenia approached Iolanthe.

Soooo... who tipped them off? Isis may well have known her father's plans and sent warning to her close friend Iphegenia who then went to Tranian to get his support in going to Iolanthe. Certainly fits with her rapid confirmation. If there were any doubts at all she was in with Dulinor her confirmation would have had to wait till Strephon got home. She appears to be most likely.

Giving POD: Isis sends a waring to Iphegenia.

Of course personally, I still go with time travelling MT adventurers in a misjump

 

[aramis]

If no one leaked the plans, it's more likely someone in Dulinor's own staff...

 

[AndreaV]

If no one leaked the plans, it's more likely someone in Dulinor's own staff...

Bumping off an Archduke and appointing another are an unimaginably huge gamble even for Iolanthe. So the ultimate source of the information has to be utterly trustworthy. Don't think a staffer is going to cut it.

 

[aramis]

Bumping off an Archduke and appointing another are an unimaginably huge gamble even for Iolanthe. So the ultimate source of the information has to be utterly trustworthy. Don't think a staffer is going to cut it.

I really think that Dulinor's demise is best handled by "assassination from within", not from outside, and especially not from the palace.

 

[mike wightman]

First of all, how does isis learn of the plot - would Dulinor be stupid enough to discuss stuff like this over the dinner table? So a staff officer in on the plot has a thing for Isis.

Next - how does Isis communicate the plot to Iphe?

How does Io react when Iphe tells her? Which Imperial assists are mobilised to get definitive proof of the plot (psionics?)

Which assets are then tasked with Dulinor's retirement?

I like it - it has the potential to be the hook for lots of pc scale gaming.

 

[AndreaV]

I really think that Dulinor's demise is best handled by "assassination from within", not from outside, and especially not from the palace.

Possibly, but it still leaves the creation of an Archduke of Deneb and confirmation of Isis as Ilelish without Strephon's direct approval. Biggies all by themselves, even more so in the wake of Dulinor going boom. Certainly not things that couldn't wait ten weeks even given the circs, unless of course you know somebody just tried to off the Emperor. Somebody in the palace had to know what Dulinor was up to.

 

[AndreaV]

First of all, how does isis learn of the plot - would Dulinor be stupid enough to discuss stuff like this over the dinner table? So a staff officer in on the plot has a thing for Isis.

Next - how does Isis communicate the plot to Iphe?

How does Io react when Iphe tells her? Which Imperial assists are mobilised to get definitive proof of the plot (psionics?)

Which assets are then tasked with Dulinor's retirement?

I like it - it has the potential to be the hook for lots of pc scale gaming.

Mmmmmm thinks... Easy one first. Getting the info from Ililesh to Capital ahead of Dulinor. Simply. Dulinor is in the Sargon a J4 light cruiser, Isis sends the goods in a J6 courier with a trusted crew (cue PC's) Add spice with Uncle Hutie sending a hit squad to stop the news.

Who did the deed? again easy, plenty of candidates. But they'd need to be either utterly dependable and discreet; or disposable (cue PC's and jaws music).

Confirming the info? Well there are already several people on the ground on Capital who are in on the plot (the leadership of the Ililesh Guards for one). I like to shy away from Imperial use of psionics in my games but certainly one option. Good old fashioned Intel work is another. However its race against time with a ticking clock of Dulinor's approach at J4.

Leaving just how does Isis get the goods on Daddy? Overhears a chance conversation and begins to suspect. Then she digs a bit using "independent contractors" (yet again cue PCs). Finally finds the goods, but Dad's already left on the Sargon, so its a race again.

All wrapped up

 

[Peter Newman]

Strephon mentions not ever having heard of IRIS though, in Survival Margin (pg. 28). So if they existed all along, why didn't he know about them? Unless they were so secret that even he wasn't cleared. But that solution has a host of other problems. We may not know what the US Continuity of Operations plan is, but we all know there is one. IRIS seems to pop into existence out of nowhere.

That is not exactly what Strephon says. He says "Who are these IRIS people? You would think that I would have heard of them."

He does not say "What is this IRIS agency? You would think that I would have heard of it."

Therefore he has heard of IRIS, he just has not heard of these particular IRIS employees. Therefore his remarks confirm the canonicity of IRIS.

[Either that or they confirm that Strephon isn't as literal a speaker as I am....]

 

[rancke]

That is not exactly what Strephon says. He says "Who are these IRIS people? You would think that I would have heard of them."

He does not say "What is this IRIS agency? You would think that I would have heard of it."

Therefore he has heard of IRIS, he just has not heard of these particular IRIS employees. Therefore his remarks confirm the canonicity of IRIS.

[Either that or they confirm that Strephon isn't as literal a speaker as I am....]

An interesting theory. Your interpretation is, admittedly, possible, but so is the one where Strephon has never heard of IRIS before. So what additional evidence can we look to?

In Strephon's diary there is a later entry where he expounds on the silliness of the whole notion. The one about the secret spymasters that "of course" runs everything.

But more interestingly, if Strephon knows about IRIS but not these IRIS people, where are the IRIS people he does know about? In this case absence of evidence is definitely evidence of absence. Your theory means that a bunch of fake IRIS people are running around playing Emperor brokers, and the real IRIS just doesn't lift a finger stop them let alone to do their own job.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Peter Newman is correct, it is a vague part of language, such as Strephon saying "as if..." IRIS having the nerve to question him. Thus why he chose to not give them an audience and made a later journal entry mocking them as if he was a robot. DonM's interpetation is best, Strephon lost his nerve, seeing war and having no stomach for it, he simply gave up.

 

[rancke]

Peter Newman is correct...

Correct in that his interpretation is possible. Incorrect in that it can't be interpreted to mean that Strephon has never heard of IRIS before. It can be so interpreted; people have been doing it for decades whereas this is the first time I've heard Peter's interpretation.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

If I remember correctly the original idea behind Strephon was that it was a pseudo biological replica that leads the faction - the real organic Strephon having been killed as described in MT.

It was fan base bleating that got them to change it to the emperor was in the shower - sorry - was away from home on a super secret mission tat took months of travel time and so survived but had a breakdown.

Personally I wish they'd stuck with the original idea.

 

[Dragoner]

Correct in that his interpretation is possible. Incorrect in that it can't be interpreted to mean that Strephon has never heard of IRIS before. It can be so interpreted; people have been doing it for decades whereas this is the first time I've heard Peter's interpretation.


Hans

When I read it, I had to think of which way it was meant, it being written in his personal journal means it is his inner voice. I think people become too familar with Strephon and forget that he is the Emperor, the next best thing to God. He probably would not be used to being questioned about who he is, as a matter of fact he goes out of persona on purpose in Arrival Vengeance, because of it. Either way of dealing with IRIS would have insulted his position as Emperor.

 

[AndreaV]

If I remember correctly the original idea behind Strephon was that it was a pseudo biological replica that leads the faction - the real organic Strephon having been killed as described in MT.

It was fan base bleating that got them to change it to the emperor was in the shower - sorry - was away from home on a super secret mission tat took months of travel time and so survived but had a breakdown.

Personally I wish they'd stuck with the original idea.

Loren Wiseman has mentioned this on a number of occasions, that the concept of Strephon in the MT time line was inspired by the False Dimtri's of Russia. And I wish they'd stuck with that idea too.

 

[MCEvans]

Of course personally, I still go with time travelling MT adventurers in a misjump

This would be the funnest!

On that line, AB101 did it! :rofl::rofl:

 

[MCEvans]

That is not exactly what Strephon says. He says "Who are these IRIS people? You would think that I would have heard of them."

He does not say "What is this IRIS agency? You would think that I would have heard of it."

Therefore he has heard of IRIS, he just has not heard of these particular IRIS employees. Therefore his remarks confirm the canonicity of IRIS.

[Either that or they confirm that Strephon isn't as literal a speaker as I am....]

The Emperor would know, at the least, all the Regents, Sr. Regents and the High Regent. So anybody less than that he would not know and why would not one of them come. Stepheron might even know the names of the Directors and Sr. Directors of IRIS but anybody else, no.

Just supporting comments.