Survival Margin, most likely.
"Marching In Place?" or "Wither the GT ATU?"
- Thread starter Whipsnade
- Start date
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
I'm pretty up on my Survival Margin, and I can't think of a likely quote there.
That SMC omission puzzled me, too. So your take is mis-reporting, rather than an SMC oversight?
I always took it that a small Zho fleet made it to Ruie, then strafed Regina (the reported "invasion", then retreated. Maybe a feint to divert attention away from a build-up for the Abyss Campaign. Given the very few allowable (J4) counters in FFW, it wouldn't be a big fleet - more like a task force. Just enough to scare the pants off the citizenry - and of course the reporters, who would exaggerate the threat (something Marc may have been all too familiar with, having been in the Americal Division in Vietnam).
So your reading of it is that it never happened? What is the story behind the Wayward Dream, then?
I think there was a group of Zhodani ships at Ruie, but nothing like a couple of fleets. As you say, a task force. (I don't think you can conclude from the game mechanic in FFW that a single independent squadron is referred to as a fleet "in reality", any more than you can conclude that admirals are really unable to travel by single ship). It may have been an accidental sighting or it may have been a deliberate attempt at military deception (Indeed, that's quite likely).
Either the Wayward Dream saw something that the crew erronnously interpreted as oodles of warships or the crew was a Zhodani Intelligence team bent of sowing confusion or despair. Either one would work for me.
I don't think any Zhodani ever attacked Regina, although I won't rule out the possibility of raids completely. The TNS report about a briefing that was interrupted by a Zhodani attack I take with a great deal of salt. Apart from that report, there's no evidence at all for Zhodani ships operating in the Regina system.
Hans
Aramis was right, there is one quote in survival margin:
When Dulinor shot Strephon, then fled to Ilesh, never
imagining to take the reigns of Imperial power, but only
intending to flee to his home ground and prepare for war,
noblesse n'oblige plus.
pg 68 (which also says all Admirals were Nobles, another major change, but that is another topic)
I think I might have seen another more complete quote to that effect though.
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To the Wayward Dream DD Scout anything more than 3 ships, 800dT or better would be considered a "substantial" battle fleet.
IMO Wayward Dream was crewed by Zho ringers who probably inserted the X-boat message about the invasion of Regina. There is presidence for this action Adv3 section on the 'Epic'.
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
I don't think that quote establishes that Dulinor didn't want to be emperor. In fact, it's just criticizing Dulinor for short-sightedness. It's not like he killed Strephon to establish Ilelish independence. He was aiming for the Iridium Throne. He just went about it with terrible incompetence.
He killed Strephon full on imagining to take the throne and make himself emperor.
The other quote may have been in a challenge, though the end days of GDW are filled with some bizarre rants.
Or heavy fleet elements came through Arden as a feint, dropped off/picked up intelligence assets, the jumped up through Grant and Whanga and mined the gas giants before rejoining the 1st fleet at Efate. Which you can also make some adventure elements out of vs. "it didn't happen." Santanocheev, probably would have not allowed any follow-up.
BTW, that entry says the battle fleets appeared at Ruie on 186-1107, which is wrong. The news of them reached Regina on 186-1107, so ignoring jump variation, the Zhodani would have been at Ruie on or before 179-1107.
I'm not going to argue that that invalidates the entry, though. Whoever wrote the timeline in SMC consistently forgot about communication lag and dated events to when they were reported by the TNS, not to when they would have had to have happened in order for the news to have reached the place the newsbriefs were datelined.
Absent the description of Zhodani fleet movements om p. 9, I would take the entry as good evidence that there were at least two fleets at Ruie on 179-1107. Given that description, however, I maintain that whatever the Wayward Dream saw at Ruie (if anything) was something considerably smaller than a fleet, let alone multiple fleets.
It's clear from the description and the maps that the Zhodani never gets within spitting distance of Ruie (much less Regina, for that matter) with anything substantial enough to challenge the control of the Imperial fleet covering those worlds (the 1st Provisional).
Something less substantial than that (raids) is a different matter. There's not a lot of evidence for it and none against it. It's pretty much open to being filled in later according to need.
Hans
That's kinda the point I was trying to make: given its proximity to Regina, ANY group of Zho ships at Ruie would be reported as a "fleet", and survivors running from a battle tend to count each enemy twice...
Maybe a few behind-the-lines hit-&-run raids were aimed at the type of bunker-mntality the Zho could expect out of Santanocheev? Scaring him into using his forces to protect Regina frees the Zho hand in Jewell.
But Dragoner is correct that the timeline in SMC says that Zhodani fleets (plural!) visited Ruie. That is (IMO) authorial voice rather than viewpoint writing and therefore OUGHT to be correct. However, we have another and more detailed description, likewise in authorial voice, that contradicts it. We thus have to decide whether one entry in a timeline is incorrect or a more detailed description is stuffed up. I submit that the least disruption is caused by assuming that the timeline entry is incorrect.
Hans
Badgering Marc or Loren over something they wrote 30 years ago is wrong, IMO; that energy is better creating new stuff. The example is sufficient for my purpose of showing that the Zhodani were able to suprise the Imperium. One could chalk it up to Santanocheev's alienation of the INI and increasing decrepitude of the Imperial war machine as the parts do not function together smoothly as they once did. It would not be the first military to suffer ill effects of political infighting. Reading over the various materials (JTAS9, FFW & SMC), it looks to be a blurb as an advert for the release of the FFW board game; it is just best to accept it for what it is and move on.
MgT definitely, doesn't seem to have moved a single day from 1105 in five years. GT has just started idling over again with the resumption of the TNS.
Easterner9504
SOC-13
No GURPS timeline constantly moves forward, that is not the issue of Bill's post 1 and has been jacked and sidetracked loads of times since probably obscuring the original complaint.
MgT keeps releasing new products and is evolving canon from some of them. That they haven't changed dates is unimportant.
GT has pushed time forward in TNS but has released only IW years ago for 4E, cancelled all the 3I products in pipeline i.e. IMPERIAL NAVY and never updated the 3E books ala TRANSHUMAN SPACE: CHANGING TIMES.
The TNS mentions potential momentous events but they always fizzle into fluff.
So I believe Bill meant in the 1st post that so long as SJG does nothing with their license their pushing the timeline forward is irrelevant as nothing happens. Not said but MgT releasing new material is by definition going forward and their lack of TNS/timeline is irrelevant (though would be nice).
Bingo, give the man a cigar.
GDW used the deadtree version of TNS filled three main roles. The items provided descriptions evocative of the game's official setting, advanced the official setting's meta-plot, and suggested adventure/campaign ideas. Many times a TNS item did all three things. SJGames' online version of TNS also fills those roles but does so in a weaker fashion.
Part of this weakness has to do with the GT ATU's meta-plot. The ATU is differentiated from the OTU by something that did not happen and thus is defined by inaction. The ATU's meta-plot simply cannot be used to produce vigorous items because it is not itself vigorous.
The online version of JTAS[i/] does provided evocative descriptions of the game's official setting. However, once again because the setting is defined by inaction those descriptions suffer.
The online version of JTAS has provided ideas for adventures and campaigns, but many of those ideas have proved disappointing for a variety of reasons. Many items have been pegged at too high a level; incidents involving the high nobility, for example, rarely allow for easy insertion of player-characters. Other items, like the abortive Solomani coup or a brief civil war in a nation on an Imperial balkanized world, either ran too briefly or again offered little way to insert the players. Finally, too many items have been nothing but filler and these items have predominated for much of the last few years.
Finally, the online version of TNS is limited by the number of items released. SJGames "publishes" a new item every two weeks, but only one item at a time. The deadtree version of JTAS contained three or more TNS items with each issue. The online version should be able to publish just as many.
JTAS produced three items every three months, or one per month. If JTAS Online produces one item every two weeks, it totals six items every three month, twice as much. Challenge produced about the same back in the day.
Incidentally, I can't recall many of the old TNS newsbriefs that provoked direct adventure ideas. Mostly they served to remind the players that there was a wider world out there.
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
You just gave me an idea - I'm going to cut and paste every TAS item from JTAS and Challenge into one document (is it fair use to post it on here do you think?).
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