It will be interested to see if the MgT timeline turns out differently, their Zhodani module has an interesting motivation for the 5FW that radically changes things. Mind you, the MgT timeline appears frozen in place. I don't think they've advanced (meta-plot wise) at all.
"Marching In Place?" or "Wither the GT ATU?"
- Thread starter Whipsnade
- Start date
It will be interested to see if the MgT timeline turns out differently, their Zhodani module has an interesting motivation for the 5FW that radically changes things. Mind you, the MgT timeline appears frozen in place. I don't think they've advanced (meta-plot wise) at all.
I'd say Arrival Vengence is more a transition product, Survival Margin v1.0 if you will. The decision to go to TNE had already been made. Though I don't think the final form had been decided (I seem to recall deep discussions within HWIG about something similar around that time)
That's my understanding too. MT was brain dead, but the plug hadn't been pulled yet, and, while what would become TNE already existed, it wasn't completely laid out yet.
Anyway, FWIU, the idea that the Real Strephon was the real Strephon and not a Pugachev/Perkin Warbeck analogue had been kicked around for a good part of MT's run. LKW mentions how GDW was stunned both by the reaction to Strephon's death and the belief that the Real Strephon was the real article despite all indications to the contrary.
Accordingly, the Strephon retcon was a bit of fan service meant to assuage the fan base at a time when rather wrenching changes were planned for the game.
I think MT was on life support from about Hard Times. You can see a clear intent to end the rebellion and start a new long night in it, probably before it in the TNS entries too.
My biggest issue with the Real vs real Strephon is the latter radically changes his personality. It changes him from a canny politician with markings of greatness to a mediocre ruler who blinked in the face of crisis.
It was well before that because GDW first had to come to the decision to remove DGP as de facto line editors, pull the game back in house, and begin thinking about the product that would become Hard Times.
Agreed, they were greasing the skids for some time.
I always thought he was a mediocre ruler who cannily took credit for his various underlings' successes while also attempting to avoid the blame associated with his various underlings' failures. I think that was because I never viewed the Imperium as actively "good", it was always something inactively benign in my perception. And, to me, the Imperium was always too damn big and too damn old for any one man to make much of a difference no matter if he was emperor.
Strephon failing at a critical juncture wasn't surprising to me, even though I did away with that failure as the POD for Wounded Colossus. The Imperium had had emperors who failed before, Strephon's great-grandfather was one of them, so I didn't see what was so shocking.
With what was later revealed about Strephon's childhood and upbringing in GT: Nobles, his failure became even more understandable to me. Seeing as how that book was produced well after the fact, however, it is most likely a case of LKW buttressing the case for Strephon failing than explaining the failure itself.
If I find the reference on Dulinor again, I'll post the source.
It is rather sad that the Australians and New Zealanders Battle at Thermopylae, is forgotten. However, the focus here is as a strategic defile, a military term, it focuses the battle to one decisive action. The FFW was in principle bad for the reason of one throwing their forces into already well built up defensive position. Seeing the views of a battle at the Narrow being impossible, brings to mind many other battles that were assumed to be impossible and the opposing force did just that. What GDW's qualifications are is irrelevant, it is merely an appeal to authority; FFW was made as it was with role playing and wargaming the war in the Spinward Marches. An actual look at the map (Windhorn to Reft is little over one sub-sector length) would move towards that as the strategic engagement.
Logistics is an interesting issue. Time and Tonnage is the mainstay of Traveller logistics, which both have a proportional relationship. Fleets "live off the land" to some degree, so the intial bulge supplywise would be important. I don't think much of the Vargr as a military force, mostly at the feet of the great powers begging for scraps. The interesting idea of a supply line through Vargr space is that it may draw off forces from SM/Deneb to try to cut it; a Zhodani fixing force outside the Marches would probably keep Imperial forces tied down though.
Suprise and timing is another good issue and would be important, however the Zhodani suprised the Imperium with a fleet at Ruie. The decisive moment at the Narrows would be the decision by the Zhodani Commander to attack or not, if the Imperium had warning enough to repulse the attack, the Zhodani would withdraw.
I have heard others say that Marc began to let go of the Traveller timeline by the late 80's early 90's, I think it shows. He was the best operational thinker of the group, which is a lonely place to be, I know.
-Robert
It is rather sad that the Australians and New Zealanders Battle at Thermopylae, is forgotten. However, the focus here is as a strategic defile, a military term, it focuses the battle to one decisive action. The FFW was in principle bad for the reason of one throwing their forces into already well built up defensive position. Seeing the views of a battle at the Narrow being impossible, brings to mind many other battles that were assumed to be impossible and the opposing force did just that. What GDW's qualifications are is irrelevant, it is merely an appeal to authority; FFW was made as it was with role playing and wargaming the war in the Spinward Marches. An actual look at the map (Windhorn to Reft is little over one sub-sector length) would move towards that as the strategic engagement.
Logistics is an interesting issue. Time and Tonnage is the mainstay of Traveller logistics, which both have a proportional relationship. Fleets "live off the land" to some degree, so the intial bulge supplywise would be important. I don't think much of the Vargr as a military force, mostly at the feet of the great powers begging for scraps. The interesting idea of a supply line through Vargr space is that it may draw off forces from SM/Deneb to try to cut it; a Zhodani fixing force outside the Marches would probably keep Imperial forces tied down though.
Suprise and timing is another good issue and would be important, however the Zhodani suprised the Imperium with a fleet at Ruie. The decisive moment at the Narrows would be the decision by the Zhodani Commander to attack or not, if the Imperium had warning enough to repulse the attack, the Zhodani would withdraw.
I have heard others say that Marc began to let go of the Traveller timeline by the late 80's early 90's, I think it shows. He was the best operational thinker of the group, which is a lonely place to be, I know.
-Robert
It's really not worth while to continue this discussion. Your axioms and mine are too different. But I'll just correct one small misapprehension. The Zhodani force at Ruie wasn't a fleet. What it was and what it was meant to do was never explained. It could have been a task force designed to mislead the Imperials. But it was never mentioned in the account of the 5FW in SMC, which describes the movements of all the fleets involved.
You being the best operational thinker in a group yourself?
Hans
REGINA/REGINA (2314-A788899-A) 186-1107
The Admiralty was today electrified by the report of the
appearance of a substantial Zhodani battle fleet at Ruie
(Regina 2213-C776977-7), scarcely a parsec from the
subsector capital. The report was carried by the detached
scout-courier Wayward Dream. The crew of the Wayward
Dream was quickly cloistered by Imperial Naval Intelligence
and the ship placed under heavy guard in a sealed hangar bay
at Luck Gibson starport. Ground crews at the starport,
however, reported that the vessel showed some evidence of
battle damage.
While all naval personnel at Regina Naval Base were put on
full readiness, all ten heavy system defense boats were
launched and are rumored to be vectored toward Prometheus,
the large gas giant which would be a first priority target of a
hostile fleet.
Representatives of the diplomatic ministry have pressured
the Zhodani embassy for an explanation of this action, but thus
far Ambassador Shterbifriashav has been unavailable for
comment. Although Ruie is not an Imperial world, a Zhodani
fleet would almost certainly have had to have violated the
demilitarized zone, established after the Fourth Frontier War,
to have arrived there. Grave diplomatic repercussions are
expected.
-JTAS09
(Emphasis mine).
I didn't say there wasn't a report of a Zhodani fleet at Ruie. I said there wasn't a Zhodani fleet at Ruie. Just as there was a report of Regina being invaded that arrived at Rhylanor, a report that was explicitly denied in authorial voice in SMC (check the timeline).
News reports are not always accurate. This one wasn't. No doubt there was a group of Zhodani ships there, but it wasn't a full fleet.
Hans
The reprinted every TNS newsbrief from JTAS in FFW. So what? You don't believe everything you read in the newspapers, do you?
Hans
Yes, it does. And it's in authorial voice too, for shame. That's known as a canon conflict. Two pieces of canon that cannot both be true. When that happens, it's necessary to decide which one fits best with the rest of canon.
Check the text on p. 9. It spells out which fleet went where. The 1st Assault Fleet "struck from Farreach (1402) through Louzy (1604) for Efate (1705)". It didn't get anywhere near Ruie. None of the Zhodani fleets got anywhere near Ruie, let alone fleets in the plural.
Hans
LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
By the way, I'm still interested in the Dulinor quote, if you can dig it up.
I think Marc would be the first to say he was NOT the only developer, but he certainly led the direction until he left GDW in 1990. That is the critical date. After that point, DGP leads but they admit they weren't enjoying their role in Traveller without Marc, and begin looking for an exit strategy. And rumors persist that GDW considered licensing or selling Traveller.
No, I don't have any special knowledge. In this post, I'm just a speculating fan.
But to get back to the original question, "Wither the GT ATU?"
What remains to develop in the GT 1120 era? Despite not being GURPS 4E, it's a solid body of work (leaving aside the issues with BtC). More sector books like Rim of Fire?
In the same vein, I am surprised no one has developed GTIW further either.
More subsector books like GT:Sword Worlds.
Back then it's not the GTU. Well, it is, but not as an alternate universe; it's indistinguishable from a period of the OTU expressed in GT format.
But leaving that aside, I've always been fond of historical RPGs. I'd love to contribute to a writeup of the Spinward Marches in 200 or 400 or 600 or 800. Or in 1000. I actually worked on a couple of adventures set in the Marches in Milieu 1000, back in the days of T20. Sadly, I never managed to finish any of them. I especially have a ton of notes for Knorbes in the year 1000.
Hans
More subsector books like GT:Sword Worlds.
I think the era of the full sized GT source book is gone sadly. What we may hope for are planetary survey/bounty hunter sized pdf products. Mind you, you could do a decent thumbnail of a sector in one of those or fair detail on a subsector.
Hate to ask, but why on earth did you stop writing Hans? Your material was some of the best published for GT or in JTAS.
I had a computer crash and lost the content of the harddisk. Since I'd been foolish enough not to maintain proper backups, I lost a lot of the previous year's work, including a JTAS article that was ready to send off as soon as I'd spellchecked it one more time.
(Some people appear to think that pointing out that it was all my own fault will help me feel better. It doesn't).
For some reason I find it harder to redo material that I've already done once, so that left me floundering quite a bit. In addition, I've always had a problem with finishing articles. I tend to get distracted by ideas for other articles.
I haven't stopped writing, just slowed down. I did manage to finish one adventure for Mongoose's Living Traveller campaign and I'm working on two more -- one is pretty far along. It's set on Heya in 1105 and there may be a spinoff adventure for JTAS Online set on Heya in the GTU in 1120. If I can finish it.
Hans
I had a computer crash and lost the content of the harddisk. Since I'd been foolish enough not to maintain proper backups, I lost a lot of the previous year's work, including a JTAS article that was ready to send off as soon as I'd spellchecked it one more time.
(Some people appear to think that pointing out that it was all my own fault will help me feel better. It doesn't).
No I can see that :rofl: Comes under the heading of "bugger"
That I can understanding (sitting here with a half done HGS v2, two rough sector writeups, 12,000 words on IW spies...) I am told its normal apparently.
Where is the MgT living Traveller material? I've searched the Mongoose website but to no avail. However will hope to see some more stuff on JTAS from you (much as I like Mark's stuff, would be nice to see some of the "old hands" back
)
I had a quick look through the TNE 1 & 2 disks but didn't find it, when I run across it again I'll post the source.
Thanks! Yes, I have heard similar, I didn't know the exact date.
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