longer times in system?

[jatay3]

One of the disadvantages of jump is it is incomprehensible and inflexible. Therefore the number of adventures available are limited. Certainly little can be done that requires manuvering of the vessel.

I propose to make it reasonably common for the entry point to be several days out from the main port. The tables given in Gurps can be regarded as the theoretical optimal but the actual can be somewhat more.

This provides some interesting thoughts. Some of them include: low-class starports in the outer rim of a system(and all the atmosphere of lonely obscurity that implies). There could also be competition between the main world starport which is closer to the market, and the rim starport which is often closer to the traffic.

There could also be in navigational tables and almanacs lists of what time of year the most ideal jump can be reached(thus involving calculation of the loss of time in waiting as oppossed to the loss from entering system at a sub-optmal time).

The chief disadvantage of this is obvious-it means time in system becomes a more important factor to calculate, and changes the structure.

Of course much of this can be done by having a misjump; however you can't have a misjump very often unless it is a minor one and assumed to be an integral part rather then an oddity.

What would be the problem that would cause this? A thought is the masking caused by outer planetary bodies. Other thoughts can be used.
I do think more time-in-system is at least sometimes needed.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

You might have to change the fuel usages if you do that IYTU. They are explicitly said to be for 4 weeks of normal usage. (In CT, MT, etc.)

 

[AMN]

I'm working on getting the solar jump limit per system using the stars listed in the UWP. Sometimes the mainworld is within that limit. One world I tested was so far inside the limit that at 2G's is took almost a week to get to the mainworld.

If the mainworld's TL was is at least an "A" and the starport C+ then I'd put a transfer station just within the solar jump limit. The players would have to pay for air, food, lodging; and if they had a ship then docking and fuel also. You could run an adventure on the station and never visit the mainworld.

 

[far-trader]

Where to begin?

Originally posted by jatay3:
One of the disadvantages of jump is it is incomprehensible and inflexible. Therefore the number of adventures available are limited. Certainly little can be done that requires manuvering of the vessel.

I totally don't get this. Incomprehensible and inflexible in what ways?

The number of adventures is limited only by your imagination. The TYPES of adventures are certainly limited, but they would be likewise limited for any changes made, they would just be DIFFERENT TYPES of adventures.

Disadvantages are only what you call it if you can't make it work for you

Originally posted by jatay3:
I propose to make it reasonably common for the entry point to be several days out from the main port.

Certainly this can be easily done for YTU, and it may even work but...

There are a number of consequences you'll have to think about and figure out before jumping in. Pun not intended, but it's a good one Bad sign though, I only get punny when I'm drinking or tired, and I'm not drinking, so more posts beyond this may have to wait for a nap

Let's see, some quick off the cuff problems...

If you move the jump point several days from the mainworld, all your jump traffic is going to be from the spaceport set up at the jump point. All in-system traffic will be non-jump transfers between the world(s) and the jump point spaceport. That WILL happen in the standard Traveller trade systems. And if your PCs are the usual model with a starship they won't be going in-system. And you're back where you started, only worse...

This model also leads to another huge change in traveller trade. Merchies will no longer have a reason to spend a week on the mainworld. They'll come out of jump right at the spaceport (give or take a few thousand klicks), offload their cargo, load ready cargo, fuel up and be off, all within a day probably. So now instead of extending the time in normal space you've reduced it enormously. Unless you can invent a reason for them to have to go to the mainworld or hang out at the spaceport.

This will also hugely impact the bottom line of merchies. They'll be making enough money from just freight to get stinking rich, or at least break even on the payments. Even if they are paid per jump rather than per parsec. Heck the old Far-Trader might even be a money making proposition. Because instead of just 25 trips a year under the old 1 week in system and 1 week in jump model, it'll be 1 day in system and 1 week in jump. Something like doubling the revenue potential of every ship.

Originally posted by jatay3:
This provides some interesting thoughts.

Indeed it does, but you may not like some of them. And they all need to be thought out for unintended consequences. Discussion of them is certainly good...

Originally posted by jatay3:
...low-class starports in the outer rim of a system(and all the atmosphere of lonely obscurity that implies). There could also be competition between the main world starport which is closer to the market, and the rim starport which is often closer to the traffic.

I think the low class starports, and they will be simple spaceports in actuality, will be the ones farthest from the spaceport at the jump point. Look at any realworld examples. The big seaports are the ones where the boats can most easily navigate to, not the ones that are way up-river. Rivers that require shallow draft, slow speeds, icebreakers, channel pilots, waits for drawbridges, etc...

Manufacturing will set up at the starport or use boats (i.e. Truckers) to get the goods to the starport.

This is where the translation to slow big in-system spaceships (not starships) fits. And while a campaign could be built on this, a very good one in fact, it won't be the usual kind of Traveller game. I think it may be the one you want though, with pirates preying on slow ships in convoy with protection but days from real help.

Originally posted by jatay3:
...there could also be in navigational tables and almanacs lists of what time of year the most ideal jump can be reached(thus involving calculation of the loss of time in waiting as oppossed to the loss from entering system at a sub-optmal time).

A possibility, and one that appeals to me in ways. I even tried coming up with a simple way to model it long ago. What it will mean is something akin to seasonal trade to and between certain systems. So if PCs do go to a system in the off season they are unlikely to find much cargo or passengers to solicit, and if they are travelling on tickets and end up in such a system in the off season they may have a long wait on world before the next starship comes along.

Originally posted by jatay3:
The chief disadvantage of this is obvious-it means time in system becomes a more important factor to calculate, and changes the structure.

Disadvantage? I thought this was your goal, the raison-d'arte of the thread, the point

No question it does change the stucture, of just about everything

Originally posted by jatay3:
...what would be the problem that would cause this? A thought is the masking caused by outer planetary bodies.

Certainly one possibility but not supported by the rules or reality. You'd need an almost solid shell to do that. Something like this may exist, the Oort cloud could be used to make such a barrier. Trouble is it's way out there, and I mean waaaaaay out there. If it's a barrier you'll have ships making half parsec plus jumps to get there, navigate through it, and then jump on again.

This would be a very different Traveller universe. One with two types of starships. The in-system ones who go between the world(s) and the barrier, and ones that go between these "shells" and never see the systems they service.

The real Oort cloud is probably not dense enough to pose such a barrier but it could be for a slightly different type of jump mechaninc. One where any matter between the start and end point poses a serious hazard.

Originally posted by jatay3:
I do think more time-in-system is at least sometimes needed.

And if it's only needed sometimes there's no need to go and change things on a wholesale scale. Implement it in YTU on a case by case basis as needed for the story.

In this vein I've always thought asteroid systems might be taken to mean ones with no large worlds, just a whole mess of proto planet rocks, dust and gases in orbits around the star(s) and for safety you'd have to come in somewhere beyond the farthest orbit of debris to avoid hitting something one time in a million.

So the military, pirates, and desperate scoff-law PCs would jump into and out of the middle of the mess if needed but the law for merchies would be to ere on the side of safety and come in well outside the danger zone, and then make their way to the starport at normal space speed, taking a week or more.

 

[Ptah]

[

Originally posted by jatay3:
I propose to make it reasonably common for the entry point to be several days out from the main port.

far-trader's points are valid, if the jump point is too far out, people will just build a transfer port there. Some ideas below on why PCs may still go to main world. However, a transfer port may not be feasible depending on how well one can control where one emerges. For example, if you postulate a ship appears randomly upon a sphere a distance x from a masking body, then the feasibility of a station is greatly reduced since you may appear too far away to make it useful. What it sounds like your looking for is quasi-predictability, that is you can appear within y distance of any point z on a sphere a distance x from the masking body. Set a transfer port at z and set y to be travel time distance you want. The distance from z is variable, a good jump gets you close to z a average jump places you a distance y, a very bad jump (minor mis-jump) a distance 2y. Just some quick ideas.

IMTU I've bumped out the jump masking based on the gravitational focus distance. The nearest to a star you can normally get is 5AU (Jupiter's orbit) which makes it handy for refueling in most systems and means there is a lot of spaceship traffic in-system. Yep, MCorp merchies don't get to see main-worlds too much, that's why shore leave is a big deal for them. Of course everything now just happens at the jump point starport.

Originally posted by far-trader:
...
This model also leads to another huge change in traveller trade. Merchies will no longer have a reason to spend a week on the mainworld. They'll come out of jump right at the spaceport (give or take a few thousand klicks), offload their cargo, load ready cargo, fuel up and be off, all within a day probably. So now instead of extending the time in normal space you've reduced it enormously. Unless you can invent a reason for them to have to go to the mainworld or hang out at the spaceport.

This will also hugely impact the bottom line of merchies. They'll be making enough money from just freight to get stinking rich, or at least break even on the payments. Even if they are paid per jump rather than per parsec. Heck the old Far-Trader might even be a money making proposition. Because instead of just 25 trips a year under the old 1 week in system and 1 week in jump model, it'll be 1 day in system and 1 week in jump. Something like doubling the revenue potential of every ship.

A very good point. If the jump space emergence point is controlable/predictable, I think a transfer point or port would always be situated to minimize merchant turn-around time if enough traffic justifies the cost. Time is money after all. Now these transfer ports might charge a hefty fee for their use (since space stations are not cheap). There may also be a bulk discount so MCorps get a break. This leaves the poor free trader with paying the extra fee (which is just below the cost to the main world in lost time) or going to the main-world. Many free traders, especially those involved in speculative trade, may go to the main world to avoid the fee and get better prices. Since you have a week or so in space, maybe this time can be used to train/repair. If there is enough traffic one might imagine a "caravan" of services that follow merchants to the main world, e.g., repair, entertainment.
Now those poor MCorp merchies are going to have to take there "shore leave" at the jump point station or some "pleasure craft" parked nearby. Being a MCorp merchie may s*ck but its a steady job. Oh for the life of a free trader.

 

[jatay3]

far-trader
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 12:50 AMJanuary 30, 2006 12:50 AM Profile for far-trader Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote Where to begin?

quote:Originally posted by jatay3:
One of the disadvantages of jump is it is incomprehensible and inflexible. Therefore the number of adventures available are limited. Certainly little can be done that requires manuvering of the vessel.I totally don't get this. Incomprehensible and inflexible in what ways?
----------------------
incomprehenseble in the sense that no one knows much about what it is and how it works. This has the advantage of providing an awe inspiring mystery(and by corralary an easy foundation for much of spacer folklore-see post "starlore" for more discussion of the idea.
The problem is that the ship is locked on a fixed course from which it has no power to deviate. Therefore, though things can happen to the ship(mutiny, leak, etc) nothing can happen that can be avoided by the manuvering of the ship itself. I do not mean limiting and incomprehensible in a denigrating way but in an analytical way jump space LIMITS the ability to have certain types of adventures-therefore it is limiting; and it's inner workings cannot be comprehended therefore it is incomprehensible. Having something incomprehensible is good, but there needs some balance.

 

[jatay3]

Originally posted by jatay3:
The chief disadvantage of this is obvious-it means time in system becomes a more important factor to calculate, and changes the structure.Disadvantage? I thought this was your goal, the raison-d'arte of the thread, the point [Smile]
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I meant it has to be added into total voyage time, changing the schedules.

 

[jatay3]

A very good point. If the jump space emergence point is controlable/predictable, I think a transfer point or port would always be situated to minimize merchant turn-around time if enough traffic justifies the cost. Time is money after all. Now these transfer ports might charge a hefty fee for their use (since space stations are not cheap). There may also be a bulk discount so MCorps get a break. This leaves the poor free trader with paying the extra fee (which is just below the cost to the main world in lost time) or going to the main-world. Many free traders, especially those involved in speculative trade, may go to the main world to avoid the fee and get better prices. Since you have a week or so in space, maybe this time can be used to train/repair. If there is enough traffic one might imagine a "caravan" of services that follow merchants to the main world, e.g., repair, entertainment.
-----------------------------
there are other implications:

no landing available-go to mainworld
no outport built yet-go to mainworld
Vargr iced outport-go to mainworld
Intra-system traffic not worth scrap-go to mainworld
PC's on special contract to deliver on mainworld
-go to mainworld
customs are collected on outport-go to mainworld with no one seeing you
Outport charges extra fees-go to mainworld or outport?
PC's on contract to deliver materials to outport a-building
Outport has prospered enough to declare itself a separate city-state. war between outport and mainworld. any traders trading with one side accused of trading with enemy by other-PC's in big trouble
PC's are mercs in above war
PC's paid extra for speed, jump closer in-system
and more.
solar sails and "gravasails"(exploits gravity on nearby bodies as propulsion, my invention)grow in importance through conserving manuever fuel.
all these may actually be worth the number crunching sacrifices, esp as a not mathematically inclined GM can always simply degcree that someone else already worked it out.

 

[jatay3]

Many free traders, especially those involved in speculative trade, may go to the main world to avoid the fee
---------------
I accidently repeated you, sorry

 

[jatay3]

gravasails

My invention-one which I used even before I discovered Traveller. I liked it because it has more nuance then simple engines, and has the interesting idea of depending on a pull rather then a push.
I never plugged it in and worked out the details in a "Starships" like framework. I simply made the idea.

 

[Ptah]

Outport has prospered enough to declare itself a separate city-state. war between outport and mainworld. any traders trading with one side accused of trading with enemy by other-PC's in big trouble

I really like that one. Throw some belters in and its a three-way weapons smuggling fest.

 

[Scott Martin]

Ptah

This is actually one that I have used IMTU: if a "transfer port" has a large enough population and is self-supporting (an arcology structure or equivalent) then it can petition for 3I membership. Since space past the 100D limit is "Imperial" this means that the "homeworld" cannot claim rights to the (very) high port, since (by definition) it is beyond the 100D limit, and once membership in the 3I is granted, both parties are bound (translation "the mainworld is hampered") by the 3I rules of warfare.

It also means that there is no "smuggling" unless those weapons pass within 100D of the mainworld, although if the local navy is controlled by a noble based on the mainworld, then some interesting legal "interpretations" could be made.

Methinks that Ptah's TU and MTU share a lot of common ground...

Scott Martin

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Though, Scott, if you change the assumptions on jumping in, I would think you would need to also reexamine how far out Imperial control stops. I would think it would be wherever you draw the line for jumping.

 

[Crashlogic]

Well transfer ports are feasible for class a and b ports, that already have high ports. Except that transfering cargo from a 500,000 ton frieghter would be prohibitive, unless your transfer ships are also 500,000 tons.

In class a and B high prots, ther ereally is no reason to visit the mainworld, but in general any traffic between class A or B starports is most likely convered by major liners. Most far traders operate in the world of class C facilities that don't have a highport, or even class D and e facilites. So there are plenty of reasons to go to the mainworld.

Also if you are using GT:FT then you have to factor in cargo avialbility. Which means that a two day turnaround is not likely. In general, unless you are dealing with a huge facility, PC's should have to dig for the hold. In my expereince PC's get filthy rich hitting solid scores in the speculative trade market, particularly in t20. But if your players get to high on the hog-pirates. Even if they win, it is expensive to repair damage.

Also I think there are more handling costs associated with multimple transfers of cargo. Your shippers are not going to worry about these costs, but the market on the planet will. If I unload from ship to starport, the cargo must be unloaded only once. If it is a high port, the cargo will need to be unloaded, loaded and unloaded.

With orbital transfer at a minimum cargo will have to be unloaded, re loaded and unloaded. If a high port is involved it will have to be unloaded, reloaded, re unloaded, and re-re-loaded and re-re-unloaded. Thus it gets more expensive for the market on the planet.

Also transfers between planet and high port are fairly safe from pirates, not so three day transits to 100D stellar transits. I would think local systems would rather the risk of loss to piracy be born by the starship and not the system defense budget.

Thus from a shippers point of view, 100D transfer stations are brilliant. For everyone else in the market, they are just another expensive headache. Competition in shipping industry would force out the people who relied on local transfers. Or really cargos might all be shipped under terms that made final delivery to the desitnation, the obligation of the shipper, which will put your far/free traders right back on the main world.

 

[Scott Martin]

Hey Fritz

It's not really a redefinition of territoriality limits, it's more an investigation of what constitutes a "world" for 3I membership. Given that there are a moderate number of worlds in the 3I with populations of "1" (tens of individuals) this limit is obviously fairly low. The real question is what is the limit for a "secondary" body to petition for membership?

IMTU this is:
-A population in the tens of thousands AKA pop code 3 (45K is the exact limit IMTU)
-A self-sustaining economy
-a viable biosphere

A large arcology-based "highport" past the 100D limit of the main world fits these parameters nicely. the fourth point "Desire to form an autonomous government" is likely to keep the vast majority of these ports under the control of their mainworlds, and the employees are likely to be well paid and looked after as well as having families on the mainworld, but conditions could be pushed to favour "independence" and this makes for an interesting set of adventuring possibilities.

All without travelling to the "main world"

Scott Martin

 

[Scott Martin]

Crashlogic

Cargo transfer costs in high orbit are likely to be minimal, especially if you are using standardized shipping containers. The "costs" of cargo handling will tend towards commodity (read "cutthroat") pricing, because if you charge too much the cost to "compete" is the cost of a used small craft (or even a Grav Truck and vacc suit) paid off over 40 years: don't expect price gouging in established systems.

For "Durable" cargos you don't even need to do your "multiple transfer tango". Pull the containers off ship 1, leave them tethered near where ship 2 will be docking, load them directly into ship 2. "Perishable" cargos will probably ship in containers with built-in environmental systems, so as long as you leave them "plugged in" or powered on backups there's no difference between storing them this way and inside the starport (where space is at a premuim)

Depending on the design of your cargo containers, you may be able to de-orbit them under remote pilot, and pick up cargos already waiting for you in orbit. This will work especially well for "bulk" cargoes (IMO the majority of shipping) since "pirates" are unlikely to be interested in 3 kilotons of unrefined ore. (Where the heck would you fence that anyway?) This point will also favour megacorps, who can always threaten to build their own facility / operations to squeeze concessions out of the local starport.

Scott Martin

 

[Ptah]

Originally posted by Scott Martin:
Ptah

This is actually one that I have used IMTU: if a "transfer port" has a large enough population and is self-supporting (an arcology structure or equivalent) then it can petition for 3I membership. Since space past the 100D limit is "Imperial" this means that the "homeworld" cannot claim rights to the (very) high port, since (by definition) it is beyond the 100D limit, and once membership in the 3I is granted, both parties are bound (translation "the mainworld is hampered") by the 3I rules of warfare.

It also means that there is no "smuggling" unless those weapons pass within 100D of the mainworld, although if the local navy is controlled by a noble based on the mainworld, then some interesting legal "interpretations" could be made.

Methinks that Ptah's TU and MTU share a lot of common ground...

Scott Martin

Yes it seems we share some of the same thoughts. But I still say one day ion drives will rule the universe!

I use seperate orbits around the primary as the location criteria instead of 100D but it gives the same effect. Membership IMTU is not limited, theoretically, to size, TL or economy, but in practice it very much is. I've used this for belts vs. worlds but will be importing it for starports soon. The Imperial House IMTU likes nothing better than to keep the individual member worlds etc. from gaining too much power.

Yes, it's not "smuggling" unless it reaches the planet or is on a vector to do so some would say.

Actually IMTU it's not smuggling if you are transhipping, barring Imperium prohibited goods, which are few. Yet, there may be many reasons a cargo is detained.

Enough OT stuff for now, back to work.

 

[aramis]

Scott:
Two words: Radiation Damage...

Thus tethering is only a short-term solution, especially for life-forms with reproductive futures.

For me, the easiest way would be to change the jump-in limit AND declare that jump exit is always against a jump-in limit, but exactly where is highly variable; say 30+ degrees off the tangential line. If coupled to intense radiation (away from the ship only) for dejumping ships. The tear opening prior to exit is the source of the radiation burst, and making it a mix of hard and soft radiations in a wide variety of frequencies, and all at high energies (say the liberation energy of the matter in 1/100th the jump fuel), a port needs to be a good way away from the jump in point.

 

[Crashlogic]

Scott:

Well we disagree. I think the cost of loading or unloading a ship will be the same in high transfer as it would at the high port. You still have to pay the fees to do the transfer, in GT:FT there is no disctiction in fright handling fees-thus adding another set of fees will impact the price. Even if the cost is minimal, it is still added cost.

And all this ignores the actuall costs of running a high transfer station, which would likely be carried by the planetary government, or the shipping company. Either way these costs will be passsed onto the consumer. Not a big deal, as you say , if it is bulk ore. But in other cases these expenses will be borne by the consumer. Economies of scale mught have some impact. For 500,000dton freighter this might be feasible. For a 200 dton far trader its different.

Also factor in that everything on the transfer station must be shipped there-food, crew, jump fuel for starships, then factor in hazardous duty pay for the transfer crews, and for the navy vessles that must be on station to guard the facility (its not likely that the orbital transfer station would be the systems primary military port too). Furthemore where does the cargo clear customs? And how is customs handled?

So even if jump emergence was definite (which MTU follow OTU in that its variable. Its still not a lucrative business. There are to many factors that favor those shippers willing to accept foru days of travel to the local system. Not the least of which that operational costs for local system, or for teh starporat administration are much reduced.

 

[Merxiless]

I think I missed something...maybe a lot of somethings:

incomprehenseble in the sense that no one knows much about what it is and how it works.

It's jumpspace. It's a jump-discontinuity in spacetime, with an intrinsic property that means when you enter, one subjective week, plus or minus, passes. That's how it works.

Effectively, what it is: A method of rapid interstellar travel.

I mean, what else are you looking for?

The problem is that the ship is locked on a fixed course from which it has no power to deviate.

I would think you would not want to deviate from a course, since deviation would lead to misjump, and likely stranding, unless you landed in or near a sytem with a gas giant, or other H2 source.

And if you wanted to deviate, override the safety governors, and shut down the drive = instant misjump.

...in a denigrating way but in an analytical way jump space LIMITS the ability to have certain types of adventures-therefore it is limiting;

What types of adventures would you have, that you can't? Two ships meeting or combat in jumpspace?
Hot sex in a freeze tube?

Certainly those are not possible in classic Traveller. Neither can you have two men in a knife-wielding contest at a mile, because of the way the "World" works. So, is it just Jumpspace, or you don't like the rules for jumpspace or You really would like a different system for space travel?

...it's inner workings cannot be comprehended therefore it is incomprehensible.

But to the crews that fly through it, it's do-able. Someone in Traveller history designed the jump drive, and in Traveller, it works. I personally can't build an aircraft, and really don't understand the use of transcendental i in the vectors that it flies, but I have flown and landed on many commercial air flights. And, well how many birds are aerodynamic engineers?

I'm not saying everyone out there has to quote Marc Miller chapter and verse like he's the guru of SFRPG (But around here, at my house, it might be close to the truth), but there are Star Trek fans who love Star Trek, and yet know Transporters will never work, (that whole sticky idea that a person converted to nuclear energy yields ~10 atomic bombs worth of power thing) but it made for a nice hour of television, to avoid shuttle flights being shown every episode.

It's Jumpspace. I don't have a problem with it, since I have seen all sorts of "Let's break the C barrier, so that we can tell our story." in many, many other science fiction stories.

And if Jump is a problem, let's pretend (for real) that there is no jump.

A whole world of stories could be made on one planet, with no Jump capability. With 5 billion+ people alive on earth, there are 5 billion stories, at hand.

Adding the possibility of Interstellar travel among a galaxy of 100 .. what? 100 million star systems in the Milky Way?

How many stories is that?

Perhaps you mean.. analytically as in from one spot there are 6 Mainworlds to go to, if you have jump-1, if it is dense stellar density.

Even so, that is 6 whole planets, along with attendant moons, sister planets, their moons, belts, and some of those will be binary or trinary systems, each with potentially thousands to millions of characters.

How is that limited?