Jump Capacitors

[lightsenshi]

Originally posted by far-trader:
So the thing to figure out (ignoring the idea that you may need the gas bubble) is how many cycles (or EPs) of a standard fusion power plant are needed to equal the high yield fusion power plant cycle (EPs) of the jump drive. Anybody care to offer a guess and the reasons? And of course to do it in a way that doesn't unbalance and invalidate the current jump drive tech [/QB]

The jump drive should be able to maintain the jump field. By implication, it should be able to create the jumpfield. (yeah, yeah, I know about implications). Refer to the formula above for a rough idea of numbers.

Think of the way jumps are done in OTU as "hot jumps". Think of what I'm suggesting as "cold jumps".

 

[jfwking]

Originally posted by far-trader:
So the thing to figure out (ignoring the idea that you may need the gas bubble) is how many cycles (or EPs) of a standard fusion power plant are needed to equal the high yield fusion power plant cycle (EPs) of the jump drive. Anybody care to offer a guess and the reasons? And of course to do it in a way that doesn't unbalance and invalidate the current jump drive tech

No Guess here but the numbers are easy to work out.

A free trader 200 tons J1 requires 36 power to "jump", a far trader J2 requires 72 power.
A patrol cruiser 400 ton j4 needs 288 power.

The math for capacitors is on page 268 T20 rules under the black globe section on dumping globe energy into the jump capacitors.

This means that a Free Trader (2EP) will need 18 rounds to slow charge the jump drive allowing for no other power use.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Captain Jonah:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
So the thing to figure out (ignoring the idea that you may need the gas bubble) is how many cycles (or EPs) of a standard fusion power plant are needed to equal the high yield fusion power plant cycle (EPs) of the jump drive. Anybody care to offer a guess and the reasons? And of course to do it in a way that doesn't unbalance and invalidate the current jump drive tech

No Guess here but the numbers are easy to work out.

A free trader 200 tons J1 requires 36 power to "jump", a far trader J2 requires 72 power.
A patrol cruiser 400 ton j4 needs 288 power.

The math for capacitors is on page 268 T20 rules under the black globe section on dumping globe energy into the jump capacitors.

This means that a Free Trader (2EP) will need 18 rounds to slow charge the jump drive allowing for no other power use. </font>[/QUOTE]

Yeah, no guess needed for the systems that have 'hard' numbers, but as this didn't start as specifically T20 I wanted to leave the door open to guidelines for others too, like CT Book 2 designs.

I like the 'hot' and 'cold' distinction lightsenshi.

I think just to make things a little more interesting for the PC's

as well as providing a reason for not doing this on a regular basis I'd add an increased chance of misjump for cold jumps. At least as bad as unrefined fuel I'd say, +2 in T20, and probably worse (+4?). Perhaps even with the addition of a permanent and cumulative +1 for each cold jump. The cumulative damage could be repaired by a Routine Maintenance check (p. 349 T20) and one day off-line for each +1. Parts required costing 0.001% the cost of the jump drive per +1.

 

[manley_t]

I created a variant for MTU that I called the Albuicurre Effect Device (AED). The AED used batteries to store a massive amount of power, and then 'jumped'. Jump was random, requiring a die-roll to determine jump distance in tenths of parsecs. The 'higher grade' the engine the bigger the die used.

in MTU these engines were phased out for the more consistent dinstance of the Jump Drive. Even so, civilian ships tend to use the AED in great numbers in MTU.

But, I don't see any reason why batteries can't store the power needed for Jump Engines. That would just require a set amount of time after the Jump for system reset and battery recharge.

anyway.....just a thought

 

[lightsenshi]

I'd suggest a +3 modifier on the jump for using the cold method. I'll get around to writing up a proposal with common ship data once I get my hands on some sourcebooks.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by Captain Jonah:
No Guess here but the numbers are easy to work out.

A free trader 200 tons J1 requires 36 power to "jump", a far trader J2 requires 72 power.
A patrol cruiser 400 ton j4 needs 288 power.

The math for capacitors is on page 268 T20 rules under the black globe section on dumping globe energy into the jump capacitors.

This means that a Free Trader (2EP) will need 18 rounds to slow charge the jump drive allowing for no other power use.

Hey! Does this mean if I am patient (18 rds worth) I don't have to have forty tons of refined fuel?

Starship economics just flew out the window!

 

[sinbadsam]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Captain Jonah:
No Guess here but the numbers are easy to work out.

A free trader 200 tons J1 requires 36 power to "jump", a far trader J2 requires 72 power.
A patrol cruiser 400 ton j4 needs 288 power.

The math for capacitors is on page 268 T20 rules under the black globe section on dumping globe energy into the jump capacitors.

This means that a Free Trader (2EP) will need 18 rounds to slow charge the jump drive allowing for no other power use.

Hey! Does this mean if I am patient (18 rds worth) I don't have to have forty tons of refined fuel?

Starship economics just flew out the window! </font>[/QUOTE]Sure go ahead since you have a greater than 50 percent chance of having the jump caps blowing up on you.

That will only help my shipship economics after you have become one with the universe.

IIRC there was in JTAS about a big cargo hauler that was using disposable fuel tanks was unable to detach the tanks, held its charge longer than the first few seconds and became one with the universe.

Just kinda think of it as Russian Roulette with a
semi auto clip fed magnum pistol. Winner every time

This only the beginning of the implications of the Annic Nova started/created.

 

[Grimjack]

I have been following this discussion and the point I would like to make is that in CT there is no improvement in fuel economy and no reduction in engine size when you create a ship at a high tech level... say tech 15 S-Scout with the same J-Drive, Powerplant, and M-Drive rating. This is contrary to every model improvement observed over the years in the real world. The higher the tech level the smaller, more energy efficent, and cheaper to build it should become. Yes I know, HG did try to address this issue but it didn't resolve the more energy efficent part. Ships that still require more than 70% of their tonnage as fuel tankage to achieve their maximum Jump rating that are built at a higher tech level are NOT energy efficent. This issue is the one thing I hate about designing ships in the Traveller universe.

I agree with Lightsenshi, that to improve the survivabilty of a ship it would have a another set of capacitors charged so that they could jump back to their start point. And why can't you have Jump capacitors that can hold a charge for long periods of time?
--------------------------------------------------

"There is no such thing as too much firepower, or too many Jump capacitors. "

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sinbad Sam:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Captain Jonah:
No Guess here but the numbers are easy to work out.

A free trader 200 tons J1 requires 36 power to "jump", a far trader J2 requires 72 power.
A patrol cruiser 400 ton j4 needs 288 power.

The math for capacitors is on page 268 T20 rules under the black globe section on dumping globe energy into the jump capacitors.

This means that a Free Trader (2EP) will need 18 rounds to slow charge the jump drive allowing for no other power use.

Hey! Does this mean if I am patient (18 rds worth) I don't have to have forty tons of refined fuel?

Starship economics just flew out the window! </font>[/QUOTE]That's why I was suggesting at least my very generous penalties. I was considering making it a +1 to misjump per round while powering up but then somebody would just build a big enough power plant to do it in one round.

Sure go ahead since you have a greater than 50 percent chance of having the jump caps blowing up on you.

That will only help my shipship economics after you have become one with the universe.

IIRC there was in JTAS about a big cargo hauler that was using disposable fuel tanks was unable to detach the tanks, held its charge longer than the first few seconds and became one with the universe.

Just kinda think of it as Russian Roulette with a
semi auto clip fed magnum pistol. Winner every time

This only the beginning of the implications of the Annic Nova started/created.

</font>[/QUOTE]Sounds like the problem I was pointing out in this or a related thread but I can't find the source. Somewhere there are rules for how long you can hold the charge in the capacitors of either a jump drive and/or black globe. Does anybody have this hard data? I'm not saying we can't come up with an alternative TU design, but it would be nice to know the background before inventing something new.

 

[justacaveman]

Why not just increase the fuel/life support capacity of the ship?

I.E. J-3 engines with fuel and life support for J-6 worth of Jumps.

Sort of a long range exploration vessel.

 

[Uncle Bob]

I would have liked to see the fuel requirement for Jump to go down as TL goes up. Since it doesn't, maybe there is more at issue here than just energy: after all, none of us, including Marc Miller, really understand the Jump drive. We just make up better and better B.S.

I checked High Guard, and charged Jump capacitors can be used to power the ship, but not jump. I can cheerfully ignore later rules.

My hypothesis is that the jump capacitors do store the energy for the jump, but that the mass is also important, as mass. Perhaps jumpspace has it's own version of Newton's laws, and if you don't kick 10% of your mass one way you don't go a parsec the other way.

 

[far-trader]

Well as I said above all this is (for me at any rate) assuming you ignore the requirement of the fuel mass, which perhaps I was not clear enough about. I'm uncomfortable with doing away with the fuel mass for a number of reasons, not the least of which in T20 is the now official 20/80 rule.

<quick change of hats>

I do like the idea of some kind of desperate way to trickle charge the jump drive to have a last option means of jumping with some small hope of surviving. This is where I've been steering this research. Its not going to be OT by any measure but I'd like to get it at least close enough that it could be considered by all but the most a.r. canonista as a valid optional rule.

 

[manley_t]

Here are the battery rules I've set up to use in my current T20 campaign.

I've got the power-plant and batteries being the most important, replacing the need for large amounts of fuel. Power-plants still need fuel, but current tech (TL10) jump engines do not (though I do have TL9 jump eniges needing fuel).

I had set it as 50EP per ton of Jump engine mass. You needed to have enough batteries to hold that much EP (in addition to the EP needed to operate the ship *and* the engines including the jump drive).

My chart only goes to TL10 as that's when my campaign is set. I've been meaning to expand it but haven't had the chance yet.

Batteries
Type TL Size EP Cost
TL5 5 1ton 4 Cr 8,000.00
TL6 6 1ton 5 Cr 3,750.00
TL7 7 1ton 7 Cr 3,500.00
TL8 8 1ton 14 Cr 7,000.00
TL9 9 1ton 14 Cr 3,500.00
TL10 10 1ton 20 Cr 5,000.00

EP is amount of stored EP
Stored EP can:
*be used to charge Jump Capacitors
*power one-time cost items (i.e. weapons)
*power endurance items at a 1 per hour ratio
EP can be charged into battery at 1EP per hour

 

[degroff]

Through many incarnations of Traveller I have ignored the jump capacitors, and the related dilemma, if we have a fusactor that can convert that much energy that quickly, why are the larger war ships not using it as a weapon driver.

I now have a varient complex of explainations that I think tie together pretty well.
This varient is partially based on the alternate explaination for the limitions of necessary jump fuel.

A critical part of the jump mechanism is not simply energy, but matter compression, (like some wormhole or open ended black hole concepts) you need a certain mass, compressed in a certain way to create the jump transition.
This still requires some sense of vast energy, but not nearly the energy of hundreds of tons of hydrogen fused and controlled as energy.

Now taking the technolgy in a direction that is also not canon. This implys that Imperial technologists at higher technology levels should (IMHO) be able to build an ultra dense, or stellar heart density fusactor (fusion reactor).
These densities are very much beyound normal matter, for reactors I arbitrarly pick 100's of tons per cubic meter. (5 times denser than gold and osmium) These however are dangerous reactors, they can explode like hydrogen bombs, they store massive amounts of energy in the plasma and compression.

Now the (bad bad) rule breaking from this is that you can charge this reactor/storage cell with a lot more hydrogen than you can store in tanks at 14 cubic meters a ton,....so all the ship designs could get mungled...IF you can used the UDF (ultra dense fusactor) contents directly for the jump. (so I don't allow that)

Les DeGroff

 

[bodai]

I opened a thread similar to this postulating that antimatter engines that produce 50-100mwm3 continuously can replace jump engines in whole or part because jump engines are fast burning fusion engines that thru some sort of compression produce the massive amounts of power for a jump in a short amount of time.Fuel requirements would be reduced but not replaced completely,hydrogen gas is used to create a gas bubble around the ship to help protect it from jumpspace effects, j-sickness etc. let me know what u think on this subject here or in my thread in lonestar

 

[TKalbfus]

A jump drive doesn't really need anysort of capacitor to store fusion energy, since it fuses most of it at once like a nuclear bomb. This gives me an idea for an alternative to the Jump drive. How about a Jump Bomb instead? A jump bomb is a nuclear bomb that channels most of its energy into creating a jump field around itself and sucking in any nearby objects. Once inside jump space, the starship has a jump field generator which maintains the jump bubble protecting the ship with much less energy requirements that would be required for a complete jump drive. or perhaps part of the bomb survives its own self detonation to maintain the jump field. Most of the force of the nuclear explosion is disappated through jump space. Perhaps the emergence of the starship is preceded first by a nuclear explosion at the emergence point in space just prior to the starship's arrival. This generates alot of gamma rays alerting the system's inhabitants of the arrival of a starship.

 

[bodai]

And you all thought T4 was useless for anything.

T4 FIRE,FUSION AND STEEL pg.12

"The amount of energy required to initiate a jump is equal to 64MJ per cubic meter per parsec jumped.This energy must be provided to the drive in an hour or less(Meaning that a starship must have 0.018MW of powerplant per cubic meter per jump number)."

the biggest problem is that it must retain sufficient enrergy to retain the jump bubble of .018MW for the duration of the jump or the bubble collapses...note this is the same amount as to initiate a jump this looks like a typo(surprise) one of the amounts is too high or low depending,the energy for the duration of the jump should be smaller and the jump initiation energy should be higher,not the same.

 

[Dimonic]

Originally posted by far-trader:
So the thing to figure out (ignoring the idea that you may need the gas bubble)

Perhaps the gas bubble is more than we think: the OTU holds up if we posit that to sustain a particular Jump distance (which corresponds to a "velocity"), we need the continuous output of the given J drive reactor. Think of it like supersonic flight: a vast amount of energy (and risk) is involved in "breaking" the sound barrier, and then a large amount of constant thrust is required to maintain it.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Dimonic:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
So the thing to figure out (ignoring the idea that you may need the gas bubble)

Perhaps the gas bubble is more than we think: the OTU holds up if we posit that to sustain a particular Jump distance (which corresponds to a "velocity"), we need the continuous output of the given J drive reactor. Think of it like supersonic flight: a vast amount of energy (and risk) is involved in "breaking" the sound barrier, and then a large amount of constant thrust is required to maintain it. </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Dimonic, welcome aboard.

That is an interesting alternative. It would invalidate drop tanks though, which some won't mind and some will

Unless its some percentage function like the T20 80/20 rule.

It also jives nicely with an old idea of my own (I think, maybe I borrowed it) where the journey through Jump requires continual, though routine (possible for the computer by itself), monitoring and adjusting of the position of the ship within the Jump bubble. Maintain a good positon and you come out closer to exactly when and where you were aiming for. The big variable in Jumps being the whole range of perfect position through worst.

The only reason I suggested ignoring the gas bubble is the thread started off looking for an emergency type jump solution, something akin to the old trickle charge (solar? Annic Nova?) jump drive, iirc, its been a while.

 

[lightsenshi]

Actually, I believe that the thread started with someone gripping about the oversided hydrogen carriers that are refered to as starships.

No idea who that could be, though....