Jump Capacitors

[lightsenshi]

I got to thinking the other day. Since jump engines contain capacitors (pardon my spelling, please), why can't the capacitors be charged through the jump drive and the power burned all at once in order to jump?

I'm currently working on a variant that I'll get around to posting soon. Feedback on this idea would be welcome!

 

[Ben W Bell]

Isn't that almost what happens anyway? The jumpdrive burns all the fuel in a very short period to power the transition to jump space.

 

[far-trader]

To answer the question, yes.

Briefly, as a compilation of canon over the years as I understand it...

The jump drive capacitors are used to store the energy from the fast burn J-drive reactor, which burns all or most (depends on rules version) of the jump fuel in one space combat turn (again varys by version but is about 15-20 minutes). This is needed because the actual jump cycle (pushing the big button) has to occur in a very short time window. The capacitors are somewhat fragile and much more so when fully charged so they can only safely hold the charge for one space combat turn, or you risk an explosive release of the energy (engineering go boom).

The energy supplied by other than a fast burn J-drive reactor is going to take much longer to charge up the crystals. So long in most cases that the crytals will degrade before you reach full charge, and either become damaged (crack = misjump) or dangerous (break = explode).

Of course some of this may have been de-canonised, you may not care if its canon or not, and it is after all your game so you are free to design new tech that will do what you want. I offer the above only as an insight into the past and inspiration for your future.

 

[Grimjack]

I thought that the Jump Drive was just a power plant that burned the fuel required over the course of the entire jump?

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"There is no such thing as too much firepower"

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Grimjack:
I thought that the Jump Drive was just a power plant that burned the fuel required over the course of the entire jump?

--------------------------------------------------
"There is no such thing as too much firepower"

That would be the Classic Traveller model. That didn't have jump capacitors or drop tanks. Later inventions that required further explanation of how jump drives worked to allow such inclusion. Jump capacitors were also tied to black globes.

 

[sinbadsam]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Grimjack:
I thought that the Jump Drive was just a power plant that burned the fuel required over the course of the entire jump?

--------------------------------------------------
"There is no such thing as too much firepower"

That would be the Classic Traveller model. That didn't have jump capacitors or drop tanks. Later inventions that required further explanation of how jump drives worked to allow such inclusion. Jump capacitors were also tied to black globes. </font>[/QUOTE]Well just a small nit to pick here...

High Guard has a section about using the capacitors in the jump drive to store energy from the Black Globe for energy absorbtion. Ip So facto High Guard=Classic Traveller has jump capacitors.

Which Classic Traveller were you refering to then....

 

[trader jim]

Sin Bad Sam.....Great observation!!!!....was looking for something to explain my ideas on this subject...thanx for your research, ill use it!!
you saved me a lot of paper work!!!

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sinbad Sam:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Grimjack:
I thought that the Jump Drive was just a power plant that burned the fuel required over the course of the entire jump?

--------------------------------------------------
"There is no such thing as too much firepower"

That would be the Classic Traveller model. That didn't have jump capacitors or drop tanks. Later inventions that required further explanation of how jump drives worked to allow such inclusion. Jump capacitors were also tied to black globes. </font>[/QUOTE]Well just a small nit to pick here...

High Guard has a section about using the capacitors in the jump drive to store energy from the Black Globe for energy absorbtion. Ip So facto High Guard=Classic Traveller has jump capacitors.

Which Classic Traveller were you refering to then.... </font>[/QUOTE]Quite right Sinbad Sam, a small distinction and prejudice on my part, I should have been clearer. Thanks for catching it and giving me the oppurtunity to explain. For me CT is the first 3 LBB, the other LBB and print of the era are as you say also CT but I always view them as more of a CT+ or ACT (Advanced CT). Anyway, the bit in High Guard is one of the later inventions I was referring to. IMO many of the refinments and additions only served to muddy the waters and were directly responsible for the discovery of Unobtanium by the researchers at Handwavium Tech

Some of it was very good though and even inspirational but the first 3 LBB were classic in their simplicity and eleagance. That is no doubt colored by my experience and would not translate well now except for someone totally new to Traveller discovering the original game, and then only if they managed to remain oblivious to all that has come since. When I first played the universe was ours, we rolled our own subsectors and went exploring, great memories, ah well I've bored you long enough with my reminiscing, back to the future present...

 

[Jame]

Are the capacitors the primary component that determines jump range, and if not what (or what group) is?

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Jame:
Are the capacitors the primary component that determines jump range, and if not what (or what group) is?

What an interesting question, almost scared me off the boards but I'll give it a go...

< reaches behind control couch for the Starship Operators Manual, just to double check ya know, wouldn't want to screw up with such a critical system... >

Now I'm not saying this is the definitive source, or even the best, and I think its canonist authority has been revoked, but I'm not really a canonista anyway. I reference it because I think its one of the best Traveller supplements ever and it has all kinds of memories attached to it for me

The Manual only devotes 5 pages to a brief outline of the history and mechanics of the jump drive. Distilling this to answer your question...

There are 5 components of what is usually called the jump drive. They are the high yield fusion power plant, the energy sink array (usually just called jump capacitors), the jump governer (computer), the hull grid, and the oft overlooked hull radiators. Of these the ones that directly relate to your question are the power plant, the capacitors and the governer. The governer is only slighly related in that it is used to control the power plant burn and capacitor charge to produce the desired jump vector. The power plant and capacitors are both limiting factors on the maximum controlled jump possible. If your question is leading where I think then I'll add it should be possible to, for example, power the jump drive of one ship with a smaller power plant from another ship but you would be limited to the power plant jump ability. Or you could use a larger power plant but you would then be limited to the smaller capacitor jump ability.

Well that's a lot of words for so "simple" a question

No doubt like most questions, the answer raises more questions. Or maybe I missed the mark in the answer. Either way keep asking, somebody's bound to answer with what you need eventually.

 

[Iczer62]

Hi!
You all forgot an adventure called annic nove. It was a double adventure 1..
It could store power for a long time for the jump drive.

 

[Jame]

Thanks, far-trader. I didn't mean to almost scare you off the boards (hmmm...

!).

This and another thread got me to wondering about whether increasing the drive efficiency is possible, i.e. make a jump-6 engine require only a jump-3 fuel amount, if both are on 1kton ships?

 

[lightsenshi]

My point, in part anyways, had to do with ship endurance. The average traveller ship has a one jump range and with a full crew complement the life support for a month. Not a good idea.

By using jump capactors as your primary method of fueling jumps, you push the ship's endurance from 1 jump to many. It makes long term shipboard survival and exploration practical.

No more worrying about jumping into an unknown system and hoping that the system has a gas giant or some such to refuel at.

By my calculations: 1 ton jump drive = 36 EP of capacitors. To figure out how long to charge for jump: (jump engine tonnage x 36 / power allocated). Note that the jump engines will have to be ON for this to work so you can not count EP for either the computer or the jump drive.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Iczer62:
Hi!
You all forgot an adventure called annic nove. It was a double adventure 1..
It could store power for a long time for the jump drive.

Hi yourself Iczer62 and welcome aboard

Not so much forgotten (and in fact mentioned somewhere in this or a related discussion) as unsure about its current validity. Of course there is room in Traveller for many types of tech. That's partly what this reserch station is about.

I can't recall where (I suspect MT) but there are some rules that limit the amount of time the capacitors can store the charge safely, and IIRC its only a couple space combat turns. Perhaps an alternative capacitor device to the normal zuchai crystals could hold the charge longer. Maybe an orignal Ancients black globe capacitor can hold the charge indefinitely.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Jame:
Thanks, far-trader. I didn't mean to almost scare you off the boards (hmmm...

!).

Look! You can see the wheels turning!

If I didn't know better I'd suspect I was part Hiver

Its my paranoid runaway imagination. Gave me a glimpse of where such an innocent question could lead and I had to take a moment to collect my thoughts and frame a reply that would steer the thread away from certain disaster

Hmm, maybe I am part Hiver

Originally posted by Jame:
This and another thread got me to wondering about whether increasing the drive efficiency is possible, i.e. make a jump-6 engine require only a jump-3 fuel amount, if both are on 1kton ships?

Hmm, so you're thinking something like install a j-drive good for J6 but specified for 50% performance (J3 max) so that each jump uses only 50% the fuel? Increasing the volume and cost of the j-drive for improved fuel efficiency. Radical! Sounds like a project worthy of funding. In other words I see no reason it couldn't be used for a YTU game. You could even make it experimental, lets see where can we find some test pilots

...

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by lightsenshi:
My point, in part anyways, had to do with ship endurance. The average traveller ship has a one jump range and with a full crew complement the life support for a month. Not a good idea.

By using jump capactors as your primary method of fueling jumps, you push the ship's endurance from 1 jump to many. It makes long term shipboard survival and exploration practical.

No more worrying about jumping into an unknown system and hoping that the system has a gas giant or some such to refuel at.

By my calculations: 1 ton jump drive = 36 EP of capacitors. To figure out how long to charge for jump: (jump engine tonnage x 36 / power allocated). Note that the jump engines will have to be ON for this to work so you can not count EP for either the computer or the jump drive.

So if I read this right you're positing installing additional capacitors and charging them all up in system before jump, storing for example 4 jump-1's worth of energy for your J1 drive, perhaps even doing the charging using an outside power source. Is that about right? This would indeed be a new type of jump drive, not invalid for YTU just an alternative non-OT type.

 

[lightsenshi]

Originally posted by far-trader:
So if I read this right you're positing installing additional capacitors and charging them all up in system before jump, storing for example 4 jump-1's worth of energy for your J1 drive, perhaps even doing the charging using an outside power source. Is that about right? This would indeed be a new type of jump drive, not invalid for YTU just an alternative non-OT type. [/QB]

*snip*

Yes. You could store more capacitors but your jump distance would still be limited by your jump drive.

This method wouldn't invalidate jump drives the way they are written now, of course. The current set up would be useful for emergency jumps as using this method will require minutes to an hour or more of time to charge.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by lightsenshi:
Yes. You could store more capacitors but your jump distance would still be limited by your jump drive.

This method wouldn't invalidate jump drives the way they are written now, of course. The current set up would be useful for emergency jumps as using this method will require minutes to an hour or more of time to charge.

OK, I missed something I guess. I think I see now. You're charging the capacitors using the standard power plant? And the jump drive still routes the power feed to the capacitors?

The way I understand the OT jump drive (as it evolved/has been explained) it requires a large amount of energy in a very short time. This happens by burning a lot of fuel quickly (but not fast enough) and temporarily storing it in fast discharge capacitors. When the full charge is done the energy can be released in a near instantaneous burst to tear a hole into jump space. As far as this goes I think your idea will work.

However, the other part (in some explanations at least) is that the byproduct of the fuel burn is used to create a plasma bubble, held a meter off the hull by the jump grid. That forms the jump bubble to protect the ship through jump.

 

[lightsenshi]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lightsenshi:
Yes. You could store more capacitors but your jump distance would still be limited by your jump drive.

This method wouldn't invalidate jump drives the way they are written now, of course. The current set up would be useful for emergency jumps as using this method will require minutes to an hour or more of time to charge.

OK, I missed something I guess. I think I see now. You're charging the capacitors using the standard power plant? And the jump drive still routes the power feed to the capacitors? </font>[/QUOTE]Correct.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by lightsenshi:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
OK, I missed something I guess. I think I see now. You're charging the capacitors using the standard power plant? And the jump drive still routes the power feed to the capacitors?

Correct.</font>[/QUOTE]So the thing to figure out (ignoring the idea that you may need the gas bubble) is how many cycles (or EPs) of a standard fusion power plant are needed to equal the high yield fusion power plant cycle (EPs) of the jump drive. Anybody care to offer a guess and the reasons? And of course to do it in a way that doesn't unbalance and invalidate the current jump drive tech