Is Solomani evil?
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THHeinrichT1@aol.com
SOC-9
That fact is rather well known.
Look at the several texts about the Hiver/K'kree wars. Look at the text regarding to the G'naak. Look at the frictures caused by early encounters with solomani and imperial citizens. Look the way they nuke omnivore/carnivore sophonts. Look at the Lords of Thunder in MTJ #4 for even a worse drawing and if you wish - no better do not wish - there are even more incidents.
The K'kree are a superficial, genocidal, arrogant race which where in the original only held back by the hiver threat to turn them into something that they would't like.
Compare the Solomani with the K'kree and you will notice a very important differnce.
K'kree = Minor Races either Dead or Servants.
Solomani = Minor Races are citizens of the second class, and Solomani are the only human race fit to Rule.
That would mean the K'kree are weird aliens with an inferiority feeling who do play Kill the G'naak with every race that doesn't fit into their sheme of well behavior. That is by definition pure fashism.
The Solomani are overzealous and have a megalomaniac Complex. Given time they will learn, that is what the Hivers also think.
The K'kree are far beyond any help. They are destined to die out because of acute paranoia.
Think of the ultimat crime, the K'kree attack a world inhabitet by a race which has already spaceflight and is so warlike, that this step was like pointing with a stick into a nest of wasps.
This race hardened by 4000 years of continual conquest now faces a race of soft and sheepish herbivores, bent of exterminating what they see as pests... Wouldn't that race rightfully commit genocide to the K'kree. Perhaps by Killerviri, or by nuking every K'kree world. Think of the consequnces.
Solomani would perhaps do some very dumb breach to diplomatic protocol, but they wouldn't attack to exterminate. Instead they would try to reach a status qou, from which you could only win. As it was done with the Solomani Rim War, sometimes you have to loose if you wish to win later on.
Regards
Torsten
Genocidal? Yes, several times. Arrogant? Oh yes! But superficial? I don't agree.
I don't think K'kree have an "inferiority complex" - their behaviors and reactions are somewhat more intricate than that. And please: I know it has become common to use "fascist" simply as synonym for "evil", but that doesn't make it correct.
"Fascism" is in any case a useless distinction when talking about an Alien race.
No, they wouldn't, because no matter how "hardened", a single world minor race will be nothing more than a speed bump for a multi-kiloworld empire of militant, paranoid high-tech herbivores.
If the K'kree ran into a large empire of militant carnivores, practically the G'naak as a major race, and they were direct neighbours and both sides were content with nothing else but eradication, then genocidal war might result. Otherwise no. The K'kree don't go out of their way to destroy the Aslan and Vargr, although they definitely know about them.
K'kree may be, from a human POV, be fanatics - but they are not collectively insane.
Regards
Tobias
THHeinrichT1@aol.com
SOC-9
Genocidal? Yes, several times. Arrogant? Oh yes! But superficial? I don't agree.</font>[/QUOTE]You might not agree, that is your justified option. But think about this little paragraph from AM2: Towards non-K'kree, however, they are less charitable, for the K'kree are highly chauvinistic. Non-K'kree are considered inferiors, and treated (usualy) as servants or worse, and rarely receive the benefit of doubt in disputes or misunderstandings. K'kree merchants... That qualifies alone for the argument superficial. And it was in the Alien Modul 2 which i still have accesible under all my things packed up for moving. Furthermore in the Lord of Thunder supplement in MTJ #4 refer to the "Fervent Crusade"... They have caused ecological disasters on several planets by killing every onmivore/carnivore on the world. This fact alone is a clear clue to their ignorance and ignorance is the same as being superfical.
I don't think K'kree have an "inferiority complex" - their behaviors and reactions are somewhat more intricate than that. And please: I know it has become common to use "fascist" simply as synonym for "evil", but that doesn't make it correct.
"Fascism" is in any case a useless distinction when talking about an Alien race.
</font>[/QUOTE]As you might have read, I am hailing from germany like you. We germans know what fascism is and we are bent to never again let it rise it's ugly head. But let as pinpoint a definition of fascism then to make my point a little bit more obvious. First fascism was a countermovement to the marxistic ideology. Therfore everything that Karl Marx had found ok was denied by faschists, the ideology was invented by Ernst Nolte. Second fascism isn't plain nationalsocialistic. So if i would put it to a point the K'Kree are Nazis in space. They fulfill every aspect of qualification, that is what makes them so alien.
No, they wouldn't, because no matter how "hardened", a single world minor race will be nothing more than a speed bump for a multi-kiloworld empire of militant, paranoid high-tech herbivores.
If the K'kree ran into a large empire of militant carnivores, practically the G'naak as a major race, and they were direct neighbours and both sides were content with nothing else but eradication, then genocidal war might result. Otherwise no. The K'kree don't go out of their way to destroy the Aslan and Vargr, although they definitely know about them.
K'kree may be, from a human POV, be fanatics - but they are not collectively insane.
Regards
Tobias </font>[/QUOTE]The mysteries of the G'naak homeworld were also lifted in Lords of Thunder. I am refering again to an IMTU Race.
Once again Lords of Thunder come to mind with this... The K'kree idea that carnivores are a threat to be eliminated... The K'kree have forced several omnivorous species to become vegetarian and - though details are not available - exterminating several carnivorous species entirely... apperently has been extended to non-inteligent species as well.
Fanatism is a form of instability in the personal makeup, by definition is fanatism just insanity. Thanks to my lecturers, that i remember still what qualifies as social insanities.
The K'kree tried something very similiar to destroying the Vargr or Aslan, they wared with the Hivers, and the "fervent Crusade" demanded the death of all hivers - again AM 2 and Lords of Thunder - only the proof that hivers would be able to manipulate K'kree into a more docile and tractable form. The K'kree sterilised the affected worlds, of course.
Regd.
Torsten
BTW. You could exchange "fervent Crusade" with either "jihad", "Kreuzzug" or "inquisition", I think that will destroy all doubts.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
"And please: I know it has become common to use "fascist" simply as synonym for "evil", but that doesn't make it correct."
One of the fundamental principles of fascism is that the state is supreme; individuals are almost irrelevant. That describes K'kree perfectly.
One of the fundamental principles of fascism is that the state is supreme; individuals are almost irrelevant. That describes K'kree perfectly.
THHeinrichT1@aol.com
SOC-9
Sic,
as reflected in their very special caste system.
Fascism - if to be used in a context other than Italy at all - encompasses nationalist, anti-Communist, anti-Democratic, militaristic, authoritarian elements. One other defining element of fascism is that it seeks to supplant another system by force.
Fascism - if, as mentioned, used to describe a phenomenon other than Mussolini's Italy - is a defined historical classification (although the definition varies somewhat from author to author). In any case:
It makes no sense whatsoever to apply the label "fascist" to an alien society.
Regards,
Tobias
What, in your mind, makes that "superficial"? It's not like the K'kree are not aware of their supremacist doctrine or do not have a philosophy to back it up.
Ignorant? Where the K'kree not aware of the ecological damage the extermination of carnivores brought?
Btw, I take it that Solomani, as a race, are "superficial" as well? Because their willingness to damage the ecology of a world for short-term gain has been amply demonstrated...
By "know", I suppose you don't mean "first hand", cause I certainly dont. In any case: I don't see the context. We are talking about an alien race - and a fictional one, of course - here.
That's simplifying Nolte to an extreme degree, but if we accept that: Was there ever a K'kree Karl Marx? Is a K'kree Karl Marx even possible? This is just one reason why applying "fascist", "communist" etc. to alien races is pointless.
"Nazis in Space?" And you consider that to be alien? That is likely one of the oldest clichés the SF genre knows.
Again, the regrettable trend to call anything and everything "nazi" or "fascist" is not one which serious historical consideration lends any credibility to.
Reread what I wrote: "From a human POV" - but a human POV does not apply here, quite simply. In any case, lecturer or not, somebody who claims that "fanatism", without a clear definition of what that is in the first place, is principally insane, better come up with a good explanation.
Yes, the Hivers. An enemy whose very racial traits were absolutely abhorrent to them popped up at their borders, potentially dangerous but presently weak because of their lack of a military. The decision to eliminate them was, using K'kree parameters, entirely reasonable.
What are you trying to do now, giving me good opportunities to destroy some cherished myths about the above-mentioned topics?
"Immerhin sind die Unterschiede, die den sogenannten Menschen von seinen tierischen Verwandten trennen, nahezu gleich null. Ähnlich wie eine an Wuchs höhere Person nicht annehmen darf, daß diese Überlegenheit ihr das Recht gibt, die an Wuchs niedrigeren zu fressen, so darf auch der mit etwas höherem Verstand Begabte nicht morden und fressen(...)"
I wonder if any K'kree every had an opportunity to read Lem.
(Sorry, I do not have an English-language translation handy... it's from the eighth voyage of Ijon Tichy).
Regards,
Tobias
THHeinrichT1@aol.com
SOC-9
Ignorant? Where the K'kree not aware of the ecological damage the extermination of carnivores brought?
Btw, I take it that Solomani, as a race, are "superficial" as well? Because their willingness to damage the ecology of a world for short-term gain has been amply demonstrated...
[/QUOTE]
Hmm, you should read lords of thunder and perhaps even some more on the K'kree...
Wrong is your point of view that political systems couldn't be transfered to alien species, especialy wrong when you are refering to roleplaying aliens. Even if it is an simplification, the rules exists to make a game playable. Look at 101 Religions or 101 Governtments from BITS to have some more of human/non-human perspective.
At least traveler is a science fiction roleplaying game. So it comes to me as no wonder, that it has the same prejudices which are running free in books from Niven, Bova, Anderson or Clarke. Or for a special twist look at Heinlein! At my age I can still say I have seen so many things and done enough, but still I am able to learn new things daily.
I have collected the original Rulebooks of Traveller as well as MT, I have access to some TNE and T4 material, furthermore my library is full of Fanzines and old Magazines. Even some very old Dragons. Ares magazine does mean anything to you?
Even if I may Err, I think the only conclusion to the "fascism" or "Nazi in Space" attitude of K'kree can be given by either Loren Wiseman or Marc Miller. There is no worth in debating it further.
Regs.
Torsten
THHeinrichT1@aol.com
SOC-9
The Translation would be:Originally posted by Tobias:
"zu fressen, so darf auch der mit etwas höherem Verstand Begabte nicht morden und fressen(...)"
I wonder if any K'kree every had an opportunity to read Lem.
(Sorry, I do not have an English-language Immerhin sind die Unterschiede, die den sogenannten Menschen von seinen tierischen Verwandten trennen, nahezu gleich null. Ähnlich wie eine an Wuchs höhere Person nicht annehmen darf, daß diese Überlegenheit ihr das Recht gibt, die an Wuchs niedrigeren translation handy... it's from the eighth voyage of Ijon Tichy).
Regards,
Tobias
"After all are the differnces which divide the so called human being from his more animal relatives nearly non-existent. Similary like a person with higher growth might not expect, that this superiority might give him the right to eat those who are smaler than him - neither might those giftet with higher reason kill and eat..."
Lem is not used in traveller. Again, Traveller is more Heinlein, Niven, Bova, Anderson and Clarke. And Lem would spoil the fun on Traveller indeed, already read Robots Fairytales? "Robotermärchen"...
Then you know why he isn't mentioned, instead Asimov is used. Lem was no visionary, he was just plain a philosophical Science Fiction writer. The higher sense, which is hiding behind "Solaris" was one of our secondary school workout in german. Our teacher was very interested in Sci-Fi, but Lem was no Sci-Fi at all. It was Philosophy, no more and no less.
THHeinrichT1@aol.com
SOC-9
Sorry double posting, wasn't no intention.
THHeinrichT1@aol.com
SOC-9
And trippled, how that? Hell, damn Keyboard.
THHeinrichT1@aol.com
SOC-9
The quick tell me who invented the "Jihad" and why?
The "Muslim people" or where they instrumentalised by a german diplomat?
Why was it done? Then perhaps, as you pointed out earlier, there is no such thing as the "muslimic" People, since there were several different sects within this religion. Por ejemplo: the sunnis and shiite.
The "Crusades", well easy as it is and not mythic look at the history regarding the first crusade:
You wouldn't describe the "seldschukish Turks" a myth, or would you? Then i had to ask you what are you a student of? History, or perhaps even Theology...
I did. All that LoT contains is the mention that, in some cases, unintelligent carnivores were exterminated, and that there are rumors of ecological disasters caused by this.
It does not seem improbable to me, sure, that the K'kree exterminate all predators which could possibly harm them wherever they settle.
A shocking, unheard-of concept, I gather.
I suggest you read AM2 and you read some of what the Keiths had to say about it. Your "humans in rubber costumes" approach was probably the last thing they wanted.
"Wrong", in any case, is something you can apply to hard, cold facts. After all, we're not K'kree, but nice, cozy, early-21th-century moral relativists, now aren't we?
No. And unless it contains an article by a Traveller authority categorically stating "K'kree are Nazis!" I don't see the relevance.
Whatever you say. I still reserve the right to make my own judgment about whether discussing alien races in such terms is feasible or not.
Regards,
Tobias
You have utterly failed to grasp what I meant to effect by the quote. I was trying to give you something to think about, not making a source analysis of the OTU. (In any case, Traveller's inofficial influences may be whatever they are. Lem's "absence" is probably owing a lot more to him being virtually unknown in the US at that time than anything else. Your explanation would suggest that Traveller authors had read Lem, but "rejected" him in favor of others, namely Asimov, for certain aspects of the OTU. I find that somewhat far-fetched.)
And please don't take this personally, but I shied away from doing my own translation for a reason, and the one you provided reminded me of that. Not that I have read Lem in the original Polish, but the German translation is very clear and readable.
Au contraire. Lem is more science fiction than most "Science Fiction" will ever be.
Regards,
Tobias
Neither did "invent" jihad.
I honestly don't understand what you are trying to convey here. No, I don't believe that every single fact about the Crusades or the Inquisition is mythical. But that doesn't mean that none are, and it certainly doesn't prevent, for example, the common notion of the bloodthirsty, torturing Inquisition with its hundreds of thousands of victims from being a blown-up myth.
In any case, this is being non-Traveller now. If you seriously intend to discuss the truths and myths of historical happenings, without any connection, however tedious, to Traveller altogether, please move to Random Static.
Regards,
Tobias
THHeinrichT1@aol.com
SOC-9
OK, bad start off...
Given time I sort that out!
You imply that I think the K'kree are humans in ruber costumes, as they are rather favored by star trek? You are wrong.
Plainly it doesn't matter if in one campaign the K'kree are played as genocidal and a thousandfold deathdealing verminkillers or in another universe they exist "Nazis in Space". The K'kree in my campaign were always enigmatic, aloof and had a rather robust way of saying "Our two thousand worlds are off limit to humans!" I allowed no K'kree as players, they were use purely as non-players... At first, two player desperatly wanted to play them and I installed i mini-campaign revolving around the fears and problems of a race, that fears nothing more than being alone and in a space with carnivores roaming free. The campaign running over ten sessions each about two hours had it's own merrits, they enjoyed it. But after the a while they read the AM a bit more closely and were disgusted what the K'kree do to their minorities.
Their statments went like "couldn't you have told us, that they anihilated most omnivorous/carnivorous races within their sphere of influence. Then I gave them a fan artikle on an old german fanzine originating in germany, it was about the inherent fictious specist species called K'kree. There were several pros and cons, but the debating led to nothing. One even sugested that the vegan (as ultraorthodox vegetarian) way of life would be the only way man could evolve. Heated debating, with the solution, that the fanzine ended with Issue 4 and was never to be seen again, a true loss to the traveller community here. Later on I have met the founder of this fanzine, it was on a con, several years back, i think it was around 1990 or so. We talked and he got very agitated about the K'kree matter in the fanzine. Since it was sold in the vicinity of Hamburg, Bremen and Hannover you might even have an issue of it.
He told me, that it was the discussion about the K'kree which started the fact, that he disliked traveller. And he gave me a very distinct point of view.
Imagine an Empire in which you, as long as you don't belong to the majority of the population you are restricted to stay on your side of the fence. Furthermore, all agrarian areas belong to the reigning class, you are either servant or slave to your masters. Not obeying will bring you into a disciplation camp, most who go into these camps don't come ever again out. Furthermore a great part of the population of this empire is killed because they belong to a special kind of persons. The subjects own nothing, not even the clothes on their bodies, neither the air they are breathing.
That took me to a pause... I asked him what his intentions were, why he tells me about this in this rather ... serious manner.
My idea came out later, as the con ended. But K'kree were never the same.
I had already slightly more than ten years of roleplaying experience that time. Megatraveller was at that time state of the art, TNE was just budding, at least here in germany. The second edition of AD & D was announced. I still had traveller groups and campaings. They were fun, but I played the K'kree as a NPC-Race, Enigmatic, aloof and murderous. They hate meateaters, they like to kill and they do it... no remorse.
It is not that they wouldn't go out of their way to kill the major races who are omni- or carnivores. They don't do it, because they are just content with what they have, and they could suppress in their little empire as long as they wish that the suffering goes on.
For the philosophical question, another form could your implication not meant to be, addressing me a dumb ass - you can translate human religion and policy into alien races, otherwise a game like traveller wouldn't be possible.
And to the intention of what the Keith Brothers intended, you might as well ask. Loren Wisemann was a coauthor of the AMs, he is here on the forum and he would be the most obvious source to ask whether or not...
As for the solomani, yes, they are supremacist and you don't need a rubber-costume to play them.
An argument starts and ends... You are right and I am an old fool, playing on players folly... I should go and scrub my dice, seems to be the only thing I am worth of.
For crying out loud.
Bye
Torsten
Given time I sort that out!
You imply that I think the K'kree are humans in ruber costumes, as they are rather favored by star trek? You are wrong.
Plainly it doesn't matter if in one campaign the K'kree are played as genocidal and a thousandfold deathdealing verminkillers or in another universe they exist "Nazis in Space". The K'kree in my campaign were always enigmatic, aloof and had a rather robust way of saying "Our two thousand worlds are off limit to humans!" I allowed no K'kree as players, they were use purely as non-players... At first, two player desperatly wanted to play them and I installed i mini-campaign revolving around the fears and problems of a race, that fears nothing more than being alone and in a space with carnivores roaming free. The campaign running over ten sessions each about two hours had it's own merrits, they enjoyed it. But after the a while they read the AM a bit more closely and were disgusted what the K'kree do to their minorities.
Their statments went like "couldn't you have told us, that they anihilated most omnivorous/carnivorous races within their sphere of influence. Then I gave them a fan artikle on an old german fanzine originating in germany, it was about the inherent fictious specist species called K'kree. There were several pros and cons, but the debating led to nothing. One even sugested that the vegan (as ultraorthodox vegetarian) way of life would be the only way man could evolve. Heated debating, with the solution, that the fanzine ended with Issue 4 and was never to be seen again, a true loss to the traveller community here. Later on I have met the founder of this fanzine, it was on a con, several years back, i think it was around 1990 or so. We talked and he got very agitated about the K'kree matter in the fanzine. Since it was sold in the vicinity of Hamburg, Bremen and Hannover you might even have an issue of it.
He told me, that it was the discussion about the K'kree which started the fact, that he disliked traveller. And he gave me a very distinct point of view.
Imagine an Empire in which you, as long as you don't belong to the majority of the population you are restricted to stay on your side of the fence. Furthermore, all agrarian areas belong to the reigning class, you are either servant or slave to your masters. Not obeying will bring you into a disciplation camp, most who go into these camps don't come ever again out. Furthermore a great part of the population of this empire is killed because they belong to a special kind of persons. The subjects own nothing, not even the clothes on their bodies, neither the air they are breathing.
That took me to a pause... I asked him what his intentions were, why he tells me about this in this rather ... serious manner.
My idea came out later, as the con ended. But K'kree were never the same.
I had already slightly more than ten years of roleplaying experience that time. Megatraveller was at that time state of the art, TNE was just budding, at least here in germany. The second edition of AD & D was announced. I still had traveller groups and campaings. They were fun, but I played the K'kree as a NPC-Race, Enigmatic, aloof and murderous. They hate meateaters, they like to kill and they do it... no remorse.
It is not that they wouldn't go out of their way to kill the major races who are omni- or carnivores. They don't do it, because they are just content with what they have, and they could suppress in their little empire as long as they wish that the suffering goes on.
For the philosophical question, another form could your implication not meant to be, addressing me a dumb ass - you can translate human religion and policy into alien races, otherwise a game like traveller wouldn't be possible.
And to the intention of what the Keith Brothers intended, you might as well ask. Loren Wisemann was a coauthor of the AMs, he is here on the forum and he would be the most obvious source to ask whether or not...
As for the solomani, yes, they are supremacist and you don't need a rubber-costume to play them.
An argument starts and ends... You are right and I am an old fool, playing on players folly... I should go and scrub my dice, seems to be the only thing I am worth of.
For crying out loud.
Bye
Torsten
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
"I allowed no K'kree as players, they were use purely as non-players... At first, two player desperatly wanted to play them"
Great, now I have an image of a genocidal pantomime horse stuck in my mind...
Great, now I have an image of a genocidal pantomime horse stuck in my mind...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
That was rather how it appeared to me.
"Imagine you ..." Are you referring to K'kree here? Let's assume you are.
K'kree aren't you or me. They don't think like you or me. Heck, when using their equivalents to "you" and "me" they probably refer to their herd in most castes.
... and you, K'kree, to run with the example, are perfectly happy with it, and would indeed be severely discomforted by human notions of "individual freedom".
Okay, now this is becoming absurd from a canon viewpoint. "Disciplination camps"? For whom? K'kree? Client races? Where are these camps mentioned? GURPS AR2? A "great part of the population"? Non-K'kree supply but a tiny fraction of the 2000 Worlds' population, and K'kree don't kill each other, as a rule.
As a side note: K'kree do not exterminate all meat-eating races they meat, even among those who inhabit a planet in the 2000 Worlds. Some are merely interdicted.
Okay, so according to you, the K'kree are not merely Nazis or fascists or whatever, meaning they have an oppressive, militant ideology, but they are all, on a personal level, sadistic murderers who kill because they like it?
Whatever floats your boat, fine. I prefer less simplistic villains and the OTU K'kree fit this preference.
I already know they did not intend "Humans in rubber suits".
If it floats your boat to be grumpy, fine as well.
Regards,
Tobias
