Is Solomani evil?

[Cymew]

I friend of mine are constantly bitching about how much about the Traveller universe he finds strange.

One of the things he don't like, and talks about quite a lot, is how the Solomani are portrayed.

I'm beginning to get a little sick of hearing him rant about it.

How are the Solomani really? Are they collectivistic evil pseudo nazis or have I listened to much to my ranting friend?

 

[lightsenshi]

Yes, we're all evil sadistic bastards bent on world domination.

And Pinky, quit sticking your tail into the light socket.

 

[Mythmere]

We have met the Solomani, and they are us.

 

[Tom Schoene]

In some versions, the Solmani COnfederation certainly do read as fascistic and racist, with Solmani Security (SolSec) doing a fair impression of the East German Stasi and being suprisingly popular despite it. In others (notably GT, I would say) the Solomani get a more even-handed appraisal. But they are definitely not particularly nice people in any version.

The GT timeline suggests the Confederation is suffering serious internal problems, in part because of too much SolSec interference. Think Eastern Europe, c. 1990.

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Cymew:
How are the Solomani really? Are they collectivistic evil pseudo nazis or have I listened to much to my ranting friend?

Well just keep in mind that though the offical government itself (or at least elements of it) may be reprehensible the average Solomani citizen or even party member/official may more than likely not be.

Also depending on the time line there may be several nominally Solomoni worlds under Imperium Military rule in the Solomani Rim. I've used this for my latest T20 character to turn the tables on the normal perception of Solomani. She's not liked much by the Solomani Movement either.

And there are also a good number of semi or totally independant colony worlds that have little to nothing to do with the offical party line.

IMTU I'd have the Solomani as similar to a long standing Despotic type goverment starting to come apart at the seams under the weight of its own propaganda.

For me Solomani represent the almost insane drive to succeed [not quite Nietzche's Will to Power though] in Humans, while Vilani are more of a cyclical view of Humaniti. (ala China, most early American cultures, etc.)

Though FWIW the Solomani character is question (Asu-chibi-chan!) is of mostly Asian descent. However her Half-Irish father gave her enough wanderlust to want to Travell.

Casey

 

[kafka47]

I find it interesting the protrayal of the Confederation government as evil. It is true that the Confederation has a long arm and intervenes more in the worlds of its realm more than the Imperium. But, as a confederation, it is made up of hundreads of statelets which each have greater or lesser degrees of liberty. Think of Earth, in the 21st century, looking at the current United Nations setup as a model. The UN itself is not elected, but, several countries have complex proceedures to get Ambassadors appointed (which includes those of the UN)...whilst, it is true that the UN has evolved into something more akin to the European Parliament. It would be interesting to ask how can the powers of the Secretary General of Sol. Confederation be limited? Thus far, it has resided in a balance of power at the top institutions of power - SolSec, Military, Judicary, and the General Assembly. So I don't think of the Solomani as inheritantly evil but just lucky enough to have the government they deserve to borrow a Czech expression.

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by Cymew:
I friend of mine are constantly bitching about how much about the Traveller universe he finds strange.

One of the things he don't like, and talks about quite a lot, is how the Solomani are portrayed.

Why is it that the "Evil"/"Bad" have to be the Others? Why shouldn't it be "Our Future Selves" that have gone bad? It's Sci-Fi. But it has some bases in the truth of Human Nature: We're not always the "Good" Ones ourselves.

Reminds me of why I liked B5: It wasn't US VS THEM, it was US VS US. Always portaying the Humans from Terra (i.e: Solomani) as the "Good Ones" in every SF shows/games is a superiority complexe I find annoying.

It's both Good and Refreshing to have something that is out of the Rubber Stamp Sci-Fi. IMHO, the Solomani being the "Bad Ones" instead of the Imperium serves to show the players "Think Different, You're not in Kensas Anymore".

 

[sandman]

By the way.... they're not necessarily EEEEvil, but they're not running a Paradise Island either.

Just like the Imperium can have worlds ranging from the Perfect Heaven to the Perfect Hell. As long as Trade isn't suffering.

 

[TKalbfus]

I think the name Solomani Confederation should give you a hint. They are more like the Confederate States of America than Nazi Germany. They don't include aliens, don't trust aliens, don't treat aliens as equals, and don't give aliens any inalienable rights. Their is no Hitler-like figure running things, there is a General Secretary who is elected by member worlds. It is a republic of a sort, though not of the nicest sort if you are an alien. You have to be human to be a citizen. That's my interpretation of it.

 

[Cymew]

A lot of interesting feedback from all of you.

I realize this must have been discussed to death many times before...

I think the main problem with Solomani, for my friend that is, is that it doesn't sound plausible at all. Last night he told me he thinks it odd that there are worlds now nominally under Imperium control that wants to get back to Solomani control, and he has a hard time getting how anyone can want to get back under the yoke of stasi...

I haven't read much about Solomani myself, but GT Solomani Rim is one of the sources my friend uses while saying they are unlikley as portrayed.

I'm beginning to think that colonial England or the CSA in space sounds very beliveable!

 

[kafka47]

Originally posted by Cymew:
I think the main problem with Solomani, for my friend that is, is that it doesn't sound plausible at all. Last night he told me he thinks it odd that there are worlds now nominally under Imperium control that wants to get back to Solomani control, and he has a hard time getting how anyone can want to get back under the yoke of stasi...

If you want to see how you could live with the Stasi, try to see the German film, "Legends of Rita" (I think this is the English title). Keep in mind the bulk of the population did not feel the presence of the Secret Police, all sorts of things would be overlooked if you had the right background eg. child of working class parents or members of the party. As for the most they were there like Guardians not thugs as portrayed in American films.

So it is possible to want to join the Solomani to be free. Keep in mind that for the whole of the sphere the Imperium is an occupation force that has brutally suppressed native Solomani forms of government. So I think that you find a population that is eager for change would not look Capital but Home.

 

[kafka47]

GT Rim of Fire was an attempt to modify the Solomani from the jackboot image that was set out in Rats and Cats. I believe it does a fair job, but, I think more work in Traveller ought to be done to emphasis the Confederal arrangement should have been done. Having lived in two confederations in my life, Yugoslavia and Canada (both Federal, in name only). This has allowed me to see that presence of overarching institutions need not imact terribly on the local level.

For our American colleagues think of the Democrats and Republicans, does the decision made the president in Washington of one party directly effect the pattern of voting in State legislatures? From what I see, it is the local concerns over the party affliation rather than just simply following the Party line. However, if there is congruence and it is an election year both try to harmonize as much as possible.

So whether the Nazis in Space (the Solomani) are totalitarian state or in a state that is a total mess (a more accurate description of the dictatorships of the 20th century see: Lewin & Kershaw) remains in your hands as a referee. But, as with everything in Traveller emphasize the truth lies in complexity not simple answers.

 

[Anthony]

The only evidence we actually have (statistical analysis of UWPs) appears to give the Solomani pretty much exactly the same mix of government types as the Imperium. Which, in turn, implies that the government is probably neither significantly more oppressive, nor significantly more intrusive, than the Imperium.

 

[legate_legion]

Originally posted by Sandman:

It's both Good and Refreshing to have something that is out of the Rubber Stamp Sci-Fi. IMHO, the Solomani being the "Bad Ones" instead of the Imperium serves to show the players "Think Different, You're not in Kensas Anymore".

I am....in Kansas.

 

[lightsenshi]

Originally posted by Legate Legion:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sandman:

It's both Good and Refreshing to have something that is out of the Rubber Stamp Sci-Fi. IMHO, the Solomani being the "Bad Ones" instead of the Imperium serves to show the players "Think Different, You're not in Kensas Anymore".

I am....in Kansas. </font>[/QUOTE]*points and laughs*

 

[mator]

Hi all.
Well... i'm the "friend" Cymew is talking about.

First of all i would like to say that i didn't know about this site, and had my Traveller days _way_ behind me, i didn't really care either...

Since my interrest for GT/MT has been renewed thanks to no one else than Cymew, you can count on, that this post isn't the last from me.

However, what happened was that i decided to invest in several of the GT books and read as much as I could. Then it struck me, there isn't much positive written about Solomani or the Confederation...

The Confederation is losing it's grip over it's populace. SolSec meddles too much and the party is fractionalized and inactive.

No one likes them. The Hivers used too, but not any more for some reason. The Aslan never liked them. The Vegans don't like them because the Vegans were treated as second class while subjects to the Conf.

Some Solomanis proposed that Vargrs really are Solomani too, since they originated from Terra, the Vargr are laughing at that ofcourse. However, the other humans, the Vilani for instance, are not potential Solomanis...

why not? and while I can just decide that things are different in MTU, I think that it's somewhat strange that all details referenceing to Solomani (in the various GT sourcebooks that I just bought) there isn't anything other than "they failed" or "the Confederation is bad".

Ofcourse, all this ranting could only be my own superiority complex (as someone hinted)...
Well hey, i _am_ a man of Sol and I expect that my rightfull place among the stars is to be recognized.

mator-who-is-about-to-get-some-sunshine-from-you-know-what

 

[kafka47]

Most of us on the list here are Men of Sol, and feel that the Conferation is done up far too simply and proposed several remedies. But, if you really feel that the Confederation ought to a more in depth analysis we could work together to make a TA that would take the Rimward focus, afterall T20 is also the Solomani Rim War Milieu...what do you say...Hunter & Co?

 

[Hecateus]

Well I don't know much more about Traveller history than a basic timeline, but my guess for the Solomani being percieved as bad bunnies is:

Due to high population (at time of first contact) relative to many other worlds, and lower technology level, and no allies to help them they were considered prime targets by slaver and other such abuse.

Fearful of further abuse and with little help to turn to they simply put their minds to the task of never ever being taken advantage of again...by whatever means necessary.

I view them much like the Chinese of today...coming out of a time period dominated by foreign imperialists...by whatever means necessary.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Maybe more like Japan than China. Solomani as an historical subgroup of the species, did pretty well for themselves: Defeating the first Imperium keeping the 'Ramshackle' Second imperium going for a few hundred years despite it's inevitible collapse. The Solomani burst out on the scene, with greater success, but otherwise much as the post-Oliver-Perry Japanese did in our history. The Post-Perry Japanese tried to Out-Western the Westerners; First with a 19th century empire in the early 20th then with an economic juggernaught in the latter half.

The Solomani (thanks to the 1st imperium's near moribund nature) surpassed a star spanning empire Militarily, but lacked the sheer manpower to even match it administratively. However for most Imperial Citizens Vilani/Solomani is a moot point, At least genetically.

Out of Game: I think the Solomani's Problems come from being designed as a opposition society. Though far from perfect, The imperium is protrayed in a sympathetic light and intended to by the 'home' enviroment of the players. The Zhondani and Solomani are then cast in the role of the 'Others'.If the Imperium is the 'western world' of 1970 (Coming out of the Heart of the Cold War), then I see the Zhondani as cast in the role of Soviet Russia; Monolithic, Alien, and Embracing a philosophy that is anathema to common Imperial(western) thought. (Psionics instead of Communism).

The Solomani strike me as being a worst case 'Germany'. The cognates between the Solomani Hypothesis taken to it's extreme and the Ravings of Hitler and his Cohorts are obvious. The Classic (1105 at time of conception) Solomani Sphere even has a West Germany/DDR type split with the Imperium occupying several worlds including Terra itself.

In Game: I think the Solomani's biggest problem is one that a CBC (radio) broadcast ('Ideas') several years ago illuminated for me when it compared ante-bellum America to present day present day Canada.

The problem of a war between two basic concepts of Nationalism:

Civic Nationalism Vs. Ethnic Nationalism.


The Southern states of the US defended their war on a basis of Ethnic Nationalism. They postulated a 'Southern Man' who was somehow inately superior to his northern cousins. Defence of slavery was cloaked in defending the 'Southern Man's' cultural identity. Most of the boys who died didn't and probably never would have owned slaves but they fought to defend what some of them called 'our peculiar institution' because they believed they were defending their southern identity.

The Union on the other hand, pretended not to care about ethnicty. If you were willing to put on the blue uniform, you were citizen enough. That indeed was the whole point, from the black perspective, of joining Black regiments. There is a famous speach about a black man not being able to be denied his citzenship if he has 'US' on his collar and bullets in his pocket.


Likewise, The Quebec seccesionists know that to sway enough of the provincial population in any vote for separation, they have to protray the nation of Quebec as nation for ALL who live and pay taxes there.

However, errors occasionally slip out. A die hard Party Quebqois member ranted that voting on the Referendum (the most recent one) should be limited to 'Vrai Quebeqois' (True Quebeccers). Upon losing the same Referendum the PQ leader of the time blames the 0.4% loss on "The Ethnics" (ie Non-Francophones). Another PQ leader encountering the suggestion that "if Canada can be divided, so can Quebec" Replies that Qubec cannot be divided because it is a 'REAL' nation with a singular 'people'.

Ethnic nationalism is what has driven and continues to drive the historical and constant bloodlettings in the 'Cockpit of Europe' (The Balkans).

The Solmani are clearly another example of this form of Nationalism. Whereas the Imperium is the opposite.

It's clearly stated at the begining of the T20 book (page 11 "footnotes") That the majority of Imperial citizens view Personhood as totally separate from Race, Gender, or even species. It's implied in all the books that I recall from the LLBs to T20 that The duties and priviledges of Imperial Citizenship depend on the person. Not their species, at least ideally. Aslan and Vargr serve with distinction in the imperial military. There are Vargr and other Alien holders of Noble Patents. Rules-wise when generating imperial citizens you always make the same rolls regardless of species or gender.

The Solomani Confederation does NOT have this ethic even in the ideal. Their ideal is classic Ethnic Nationalism; the concept that to be a REAL citizen (corallory: person?) you must belong to a specific cultural or genetic background. In this case you must be descended from the True Men of Sol. This is what hobbles them as a society and what makes them repugnant to many players. The Solomani Confederation can be made more or less sympathetic depending on how firmly and fanatically it clings to the above belief but that belief still taints all that they do and are.

IMO

Hope this helps.

 

[signless]

Boy, am I gonna open up a can of worms, here...

I look at the Solomani the way a great deal of the world looks at "Ugly Americans", or "Merkuns" as I like to call 'em. They tote around a huge superiority complex as the result of being the "homeworld of the true human race", and suffer from a huge inferiority complex at the same time for wrecking an interstellar empire.
Their almost xenophobic form of government is concerned with protecting an insular "way of life" that most, if not all, see as a source of pride.
In addition, having Terra successfully invaded and occupied by the Imperium just HAD to sting a little. SolSec is the iron fist inside the velvet glove of a government that simply can't stand to lose any more of its territory.
IMTU I've just begun a campaign in the Solomani Rim because moving to rimward gives me more space to explore without violating too much canon. I've found that I seem to be running the Sphere the way that post-war Japan turned out...very nationalistic, racist to a degree (but oh, so polite...), and motivated to prove that they are equal to the Imperium on the galactic stage. Unlike the Japanese, the Solomani have guns, a whole lotta guns...which makes life interesting on the Imperial border.
BTW, my current characters are all Solomani, who have little or no experience with aliens. They've been hired to help crew a starship run by an Aslan captain, Vargr engineers, a Hiver science officer, and a Virushii medic. (It's naturally part of a twisted study being undertaken by the Hiver...).
I'm also drawing on some of my experience being a native Kansan *grin*...dealing with rednecks who constantly say things like...
"That little asian feller ain't half bad once ya git to know 'im...*Spit*"