IN Desrons ?

[plop101]

How does the Imperial Navy organize there destroyer squadrons? The only canon reference I can think of is from Supplement 9, in the section on the Midu Agashaam destroyers, where it says that the Midu's were deployed in oversized squadrons of 20 each. Presumably, that means a standard IN desron has less than 20 destroyers in it.

Any thoughts?

 

[Antony]

I have not seen anything canon on desron size. I would go with the following A full strength Desron would contain 8 Destroyers organised in to two divisions of 4 each. This fits better with the batron and crusron strengths per FToSI. If using 8 Battleships to a Batron then the number of escorts may need to be increased. Perhaps to desrons assigned to a Batron or Cruron.

Commanding officers would generally be Commanders with the desron leader having a Captain who is also the desron commander with a Commander as the squadrons XO.

 

[shield]

Agree with anthony, the desron appeared to be a way of organising the escorts in a Cruron or a Batron. The old High Passage magazine has a couple of 6 ship escort units, and the spinward marches campaign as a 7 unit escort for the battle tender and its riders (sloan fleet escorts).

Desrons don't seem to have been deployed independently - nothing in FFW or invasion earth. They are mentioned in one of the TNS entries in survival margin (they destroyed a KKREE expeditionary force). I assume they were only deployed at this stage to a shortage of naval shipping and specifically cruisers and battleships following the wars of the rebellion. At that time a desron was more than enought strenght and seems to have replaced the cruron.

Cheers
Richard

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Antony:
I have not seen anything canon on desron size. I would go with the following A full strength Desron would contain 8 Destroyers organised in to two divisions of 4 each. This fits better with the batron and crusron strengths per FToSI. If using 8 Battleships to a Batron then the number of escorts may need to be increased. Perhaps to desrons assigned to a Batron or Cruron.

I don't think of the destroyers that are part of a CruRun or a BatRon as being organized a a separate squadron-within-the-squadron. DesRons would be squadrons of destroyers assigned to a fleet in excess of the destroyers assigned to individual Cru- and BatRons.


Hans

PS. I've always wanted to introduce the concept of Patrol Squadrons...

 

[Cheng984]

I organize destroyers inside BatRons and CruRon's into destroyer squadrons. I actually organize it under an Escort Division (CortDiv). This way if I want to detach it from its parent BatRon for convoy escort or piracy suppression it already has an existing structure. And then it is easier to have separate destroyer squadron's that can be added to Fleets as required.

I am interested in your idea of a Patrol Squadron. It would kind of answer a nagging question I have had concerning CruRons. It seems that the CruRons have a huge variance in capabilities. I have (drafted) organizations for “light” CruRons built around two divisions of Light Cruisers (2 CL’s per Division), a Carrier Division of 2 CVE’s, and an Escort Division with two destroyer squadrons of 8 destroyers each. Is this in line with your thoughts on a Patrol Squadron?

 

[shield]

I have only seen two details of whats in a cruron.

One was a short mention in the old JTAS, that had 2 azhantis acts as a cruron (with not other details).

The other one was in the old FASA high passage magazine that had 8 x 10ktn light cruisers, 3 x 3ktn gormandaocy class destroyers, and 6 x 1ktn crysthaneum destroyer escorts, and three bulk ordance carriers. Since one of the crurons job is planetary bombardment, then yes I would expect ordance carriers. There would probably be 6 fleet couriers to keep contact with high command.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Richard

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Cheng984:
I am interested in your idea of a Patrol Squadron. It would kind of answer a nagging question I have had concerning CruRons. It seems that the CruRons have a huge variance in capabilities. I have (drafted) organizations for ?light? CruRons built around two divisions of Light Cruisers (2 CL?s per Division), a Carrier Division of 2 CVE?s, and an Escort Division with two destroyer squadrons of 8 destroyers each. Is this in line with your thoughts on a Patrol Squadron?

Actually, I just like the abbreviation.


Hans

 

[Borodin]

Originally posted by rancke:
Actually, I just like the abbreviation.


Hans

So what is a carrier squadron then? A Carry-On?

Seriously, though, this is an interesting topic, please continue and ignore us little OT jerks.

 

[Antony]

Taking an example from old Earth WW1 and WW2 Royal Naval Destroyers were organised into flotillas of 8 vessels and were often ordered from shipyards as complete flotillas. In the RN at least one of the destroyers was larger than the rest and was designated as the flotilla leader and had extra space for staff, heavier armament etc. The destroyer leader types were not always built and occassionly a light cruiser would be tasked with command of the flotilla.

In Traveller assigning a CL as a flotilla or desron leader may be a bit much, but can you picture the face of a light assault unit which has detected an incoming desron when they identify the desron as containing 7 DDs and a 10,000dt Escort Destroyer?

As for US naval forces during WW2 the USN had such a shortage of light cruisers that the more modern destroyers were often called upon to undertake the cruisers functions. Now picture this a force has detected the 213th Light Cruiser Squadron, but can only find the destroyers, where are the cruisers? Could it be, no, surely not, the 213th Light Cruiser Squadron contains only destroyers, perhaps an ED if they are lucky!

 

[Jame]

I read something about how the, uh, [thinks for a few minutes then has lunch, yum...] Midu Agasham-class destoyers were organized into oversized squadrons, but I don't remember the size.

 

[The Oz]

IMTU I have 10,000 dton Destroyer Leaders which serve as flagships for Destroyer Flotillas of 16 ships which are always independently deployed formations. Destroyer Squadrons (which don't have the Destroyer Leader) have 8 ships and are usually assigned to larger formations as escorts.

Of course this is the ideal composition and often things are different out in service.

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by plop101:
How does the Imperial Navy organize there destroyer squadrons? The only canon reference I can think of is from Supplement 9, in the section on the Midu Agashaam destroyers, where it says that the Midu's were deployed in oversized squadrons of 20 each. Presumably, that means a standard IN desron has less than 20 destroyers in it.

Basing my thoughts on "wargames" as opposed to anything else...

Space is BIG, REALLY BIG. Old style Traveller little black books peg sensor ranges at 3 light seconds or up to 9 light seconds (IIRC) if you spotted the target and maintained a lock. That isn't a whole hell of a lot of ability to sense the intentions of the enemy. Any of the other incarnations of Traveller have various sensor ranges for the ships. Point is - you need ships/hulls/sensor platforms to keep an eye on things.
I almost seems MANDATORY to have a lot of hulls "floating" about in order to fulfill picket duty. As pointed out, when you need to detach groups - you will find yourself in need of those hulls that detatched, if only for their sensors.

I myself would suggest that the escort numbers be relatively high. I would also suggest that the ratio be closer to multiples of 6:1 for each hull grade up. Ie, 6 escorts for 1 DD. 6 DD's for each CL or CR. 6 CR's for each higher grade hull of either BB, DN, or CV.

Does this make for a large fleet? Yes. But I find that if you have to watch over a system or scout it out - you NEED lots of hulls!

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by Antony:
I have not seen anything canon on desron size. I would go with the following A full strength Desron would contain 8 Destroyers organised in to two divisions of 4 each. This fits better with the batron and crusron strengths per FToSI. If using 8 Battleships to a Batron then the number of escorts may need to be increased. Perhaps to desrons assigned to a Batron or Cruron.

IMTU the IN hoesn't use DesROns tactically - it's strictly an administrative organisation. Destroyers in any given CruRon or BatRon would normally be from the same DesRon, but their fellow 'ron members will likely be with a completely different BatRon, quite possibly half a secotr away.

Commanding officers would generally be Commanders with the desron leader having a Captain who is also the desron commander with a Commander as the squadrons XO.

I'd expect the CO of a destroyer to be a Lt. Commander, with the lead destroyer of a flotilla/wing/whatever being a Commander. The 2nd Officer would be the same rank as his opposite numbers in the other ships, though probably more senior. IMO a Flotilla doesn't rate a flag officer, so there'd be no staff, etc.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

IMTU the IN hoesn't use DesROns tactically - it's strictly an administrative organisation.

...

I'd expect the CO of a destroyer to be a Lt. Commander, with the lead destroyer of a flotilla/wing/whatever being a Commander.

MTU is the same.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

According to the Federation of American Scientist web site FAS here is the definition of an US DesRon:

Destroyer Squadrons, composed of Guided Missle Cruisers, Destroyers, Frigates, or a combination of these type ships, can operate independently or as part of a battle group or task force. The Squadron typically consists of about half a dozen combatant ships and two thousand men and women. When a DESRON deploys with a carrier and its escort ships, the combined force is called a Carrier Task Group. The Destroyer Squadron has the dual missions of serving as the Immediate Superior in Command to assigned surface combatants, and performing as a sea going Warfare Commander or Major Command asset. Administratively the COMDESRON -- who typically holds the rank of Captain and is styled a Commodore -- reports directly to Commander, Naval Surface Forces, Pacific or Atlantic Fleet. Operationally, the COMDESRON reports to the Commander of the assigned numbered Fleet through a designated Battle Group Commander. In September-October 1995, as part of the Chief of Naval Operations reorganization of the Atlantic and Pacific Fleet's surface forces, destroyer squadrons were designated as Immediate Superior in the Chain of Command (ISIC) with direct oversight of the training, maintenance and readiness of assigned ships. As an Immediate Superior in Command, the Destroyer Squadron develops the employment schedules, monitors and assesses training, and reports on the readiness status of squadron ships to the Type Commander and numbered Fleet Commander. As an afloat Major Commander, the Commander Destroyer Squadron is variously assigned by a numbered Fleet Command as a Battle Group Warfare Commander or as an independent multi-ship Major Commander at sea. During deployment the Squadron Commodore serves as Sea Combat Commander (SCC). SCC duties encompass Surface Warfare Commander (SUWC), Under-Sea Warfare Commander (USWC), Maritime Inspection Commander (MIC) [U.N. Sanctions Enforcement], LAMPS Element Coordinator (LEC) ["LAMPS" are helos, specifically Sikorsky SH-60B Light Airborne Muli-Purpsose System helos carried by the surface combatants], Defensive Mine Warfare (MIW-D), alternate Launch Area Coordinator (LAC) for Tomahawk missions and Submarine Operational Controlling Authority (SOCA) [responsible for coorinating employment of attack submarines assigned to the Battlegroup]. On 01 September 1998 COMDESRON 14 reorganized as a Tactical Destroyer Squadron (TACDESRON). Relinqueshing her duties as an ISIC in order to concentrate on tactical proficiency and warfighting, DESRON 14 is the premier squadron providing Opposing Forces (OPFOR) training for US and Allied forces in the Atlantic

 

[Andrew Boulton]

RN Type 42 Destroyers have a crew of about 300, commanded by a Commander.

Assuming Midu A's are typical IN DDs (3kt, crew about 130), a Lt Cmdr seems reasonable as a CO.

 

[Jame]

I'd say that the typical DD skipper would have a yeoman or two specifically as staff, and could call on the dept. heads at any time. Not that the skipper should call on them, just that it's possible.

 

[savage]

MT Fighting Ships of the SI references 5 squadron types which are deployed to 7 fleet types.

Squadrons are BatRon, CruRon, AssaultRon, TankRon and ScoutRons. No DesRons at this point. The escorts are usually assigned to protect and service larger vessels. Although, its not far fetched to believe they'd hava a sub organization such as


Savage