Imperial population distribution.
- Thread starter parmasson
- Start date
I would tend to agree with Anthony to a point on that... Long term rulers will usually wind up Imperial nobles, passing their title on to their replacement... and perhaps retaining a lesser title for life, perhaps even in perpetuity.
I don't doubt that most nobles are trained to think of the people's needs within their means... but I also posit that the OTU is filled with bureaucracies of import in even CT canon. Essentially, the few we KNOW about are fairly callous: IMoJustice, IMoTrade.
We also have the two big ones; The Navy/Marine one and the IISS.
I don't doubt that most nobles are trained to think of the people's needs within their means... but I also posit that the OTU is filled with bureaucracies of import in even CT canon. Essentially, the few we KNOW about are fairly callous: IMoJustice, IMoTrade.
We also have the two big ones; The Navy/Marine one and the IISS.
Yes. Those worlds may be run by Imperial Nobles, but they aren't directly ruled by the Imperium, and most likely the situation is reversed: it's not that they rule because they're Imperial Nobles, it's that they're Imperial Nobles because they rule. </font>[/QUOTE]Sure - I can see worlds where the nobles are nobles because they rule, but I would think those would be mostly those that get absorbed into the 3I. (I think they had this kind of discussion in T4 stuff or around that time.) Many of the early members of the 3I in the Core sector and vicinity - and maybe most worlds (leftover 1I and 2I worlds, etc.) would be that way. Their nobility started out that way, but I'd guess most worlds nobility are now long since thoroughly "imperial".
For expansion colonies, colonized from existing imperial worlds, where there aren't indigenous populations with their own power hierarchies, I'd assume a noble is appointed from existing imperial ranks. I'm guessing a good number of the 'imperial' worlds of the Marches are that way, except maybe near the Zho and Vargr borders.
Hmm, wait - I can't say that for sure - were the Marches occupied pre-3I arrival by Vargr?
It's a matter of degree - some may view most worlds as having existing rulers that become the nobility, or some may view most worlds as expansions from existing noble ranks, or by CT era thoroughly imperialized. Again, room for various in your own TUs.
But, are you saying you think on the whole, to the average imperial citizen across the 3I, the imperial government means almost nothing? That pick a random 3I resident out of the trillions and the odds of them knowing much or caring much about the 3I is what? (Asking them who the emperor is, who their sector duke is, etc. and getting the correct response; or interacting on at least a semi-regular basis with some facet of the imperial machinery)
<1%
10%
50%
80%?
I think you're saying it'd be <0.000001%
Whereas I'm envisioning a 3I with sufficiently promulgated common culture and communication, trade, etc. that it might be 10-30%.
I agree too - just maybe a matter of percentages (see my previous post).
Exactly. The few we KNOW about. I could even see there being more of them towards the core and fewer in the Marches (another indication of the degree of "civilization" or development of those areas - do you have a Bureau of Color Coordination in Stationery in your sector?
Yep - the fun ones. It's probably a good thing there isn't a career path for members of the Bureau of Red Dye No.143534 Inspection.
Rob
A good question!
From the Spinward Marches Campaign, pg. 18:
On pg. 20 of the same book, it is said of Aramis subsector "The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service maintains several trading stations to facilitate trade and contact with the Vargr." which suggests that, as of ~1105, the Vargr aren't a major presence within the Marches. It is reasonable to suggest that there were no major/successful Vargr settlements within the Marches before the Imperium arrived.
I know of no worlds within the OTU Marches that are predominately Vargr - or ever were.
**********Quick Edit
Just FYI, Aramis subsector borders Gvurrdon sector to the north (coreward), which is part of the Vargr Extents. So the IISS trading posts imply that the Vargr aren't in the Marches, but neighbour the Marches in Gvurrdon.
Just old whining, and personal 'fix-it' suggestions, regarding Imperial population distribution. Use or ignore as you please.
Some folks have already noted that the world generation procedures for the Solomani Rim and Core sector does not differ greatly from that used for the Marches or Ley sector. Others have noted that the population of the 1,100 year-old Imperium can't possibly be that low without major population control measures, or at least widespread contraception availability & usage - this is true even for the Aslan with their supposed 'population pressures'.
I can certainly believe in widespread population regulation/stability for the Hivers, Zhodani, Vilani, Hivers (and associated species), and perhaps the K'kree. I can't really believe it is compatable with Aslan or Vargr culture - but it's possible that severe internal fighting keeps the numbers down in those Major Races.
Among the fractured Solomani, a variety of approaches seem to be best. Some cultures can tolerate enforced population control. Some cultures shrink over time, while others take over their place. Still other cultures suffer depopulation due to war, or expand to colonize new worlds, or... whatever.
However, I don't think that Solomani population stability is in the cards, though. Change, growth, and decay looks more like their style.
***********************************
At one time, I suspected that 'world-killing' genocide was more common in Imperial space than indicated in the Offical Traveller Universe. If you knock off ~10 Hi-pop systems every 50 years or so (due to internal wars, nasty neighbours, plague, or Imperial Intervention), you can have 2% population growth every year and still have a millenium-old Imperium with only 10-16 trillion sophonts.
However, I don't think that this is possible in the Offical Imperium - the amount of money, capital, and markets destroyed by such regular (if sporatic) slaughter simply wouldn't be tolerated by the Offical Imperium as written.
Your Imperium, of course, may see things diffently.
Some folks have already noted that the world generation procedures for the Solomani Rim and Core sector does not differ greatly from that used for the Marches or Ley sector. Others have noted that the population of the 1,100 year-old Imperium can't possibly be that low without major population control measures, or at least widespread contraception availability & usage - this is true even for the Aslan with their supposed 'population pressures'.
I can certainly believe in widespread population regulation/stability for the Hivers, Zhodani, Vilani, Hivers (and associated species), and perhaps the K'kree. I can't really believe it is compatable with Aslan or Vargr culture - but it's possible that severe internal fighting keeps the numbers down in those Major Races.
Among the fractured Solomani, a variety of approaches seem to be best. Some cultures can tolerate enforced population control. Some cultures shrink over time, while others take over their place. Still other cultures suffer depopulation due to war, or expand to colonize new worlds, or... whatever.
However, I don't think that Solomani population stability is in the cards, though. Change, growth, and decay looks more like their style.
***********************************
At one time, I suspected that 'world-killing' genocide was more common in Imperial space than indicated in the Offical Traveller Universe. If you knock off ~10 Hi-pop systems every 50 years or so (due to internal wars, nasty neighbours, plague, or Imperial Intervention), you can have 2% population growth every year and still have a millenium-old Imperium with only 10-16 trillion sophonts.
However, I don't think that this is possible in the Offical Imperium - the amount of money, capital, and markets destroyed by such regular (if sporatic) slaughter simply wouldn't be tolerated by the Offical Imperium as written.
Your Imperium, of course, may see things diffently.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I just stumbled across your post and actually, according to SMC, there is one. Rushu (0215) in Querion subsector. I only know it off the top of my head from some recent work there.
If there is still (as of 1105) one that far into the Marches sector I'd expect there were more Vargr worlds prior to the Imperial settlement of the sector.
I just stumbled across your post and actually, according to SMC, there is one. Rushu (0215) in Querion subsector. I only know it off the top of my head from some recent work there.
If there is still (as of 1105) one that far into the Marches sector I'd expect there were more Vargr worlds prior to the Imperial settlement of the sector. </font>[/QUOTE]Good catch, Far-trader! I admit that I didn't read the SMC cover-to-cover.
...search in the Querion subsector listing - nothing found. Grumble grumble...
...search in the History section... found it!
pg. 17, Spinward Marches
Vargr: A single world in the Spinward Marches has been colonized by Vargr. Rushu (0215) was originally colonized by the Ruku Aegzz (the Worlds of Leader Rukh) in 1070. Human settlements on the world were bought out at a fair price dueing the establishment of the colony. In 1099, Rushu declared its independence from the Rukh Aegz and aligned itself with the Zhodani Consulate.</font>[/QUOTE]OK, I will reply to my own post.
First, I suspect (but can't prove) that Far-trader is right: there were Vargr colonies and settlements within the Marches before Imperial settlement. Just looking at the proximity of Gvurrdon strongly suggests that such was the case.
And the VERY sharp, straight line between the sectors - near-complete Vargr settlement of Gvurrdon and near-complete Human settlement of the Marches - implies some artifical force or action to keep both groups on their side of the Marches/Gvurrdon border.
I don't think that large-scale Imperial action (most likely involving genocide on epic scales) was involved. We do have an example of this: the Vargr Campaigns, a series of wars fought between 210 and 348, waged across 14 subsectors (larger than the Ilelish revolt, at seven subsectors!), centred on Corridor Sector.
We know that the Imperium was settling worlds in the Marches soon after it's birth in Capital, hundreds of light years away. (Wow!) The Imperium therefore knew of the bonanza of unclaimed worlds Behind the Claw, and wanted secure transport & communication lines to the region - something that was impossible as long as the Vargr dominated Corridor Sector.
So the Imperium cleared Corridor of Vargr settlements. It took a 138-year war to get the job done. Naturally, the current Imperial dynasty (you know, the one with a Vargr Archduke) doesn't like to talk about it much.
As no such war was fought in the Marches, it is reasonable to assume that there were no major Vargr worlds that could fight the Imperium toe-to-toe, for decade after decade. Minor skirmishes (involving minor world-cratering) is more likely, but such actions are not mentioned in the Offical Imperial timeline. (AFAIK - anyone can correct me if I'm wrong.)
Perhaps the Vargr decided to Get Out While They Can. Perhaps the Sector government decided to discourage widespread discussion of those events. Perhaps there was no Vargr settlement of the Marches, due to a 'gentlebeings agreement' - the Vargr settle Gvurrdon, the Zhodani get Foreven, and the Imperium get the Marches. I just don't know.
Not in the Offical Traveller Universe, anyway.
***************************
Just another 'population distribution' data point. The Spinward Marches got it's first settlement in 60: by 1116, the Imperial population of the Marches is ~250 bilion. Compared to this, Core sector hardly grew at all!
</font>[/QUOTE]From that, it sounds to me like most of the Marches was fairly empty before the Imperials arrived - a real frontier territory.
Except for some Zho, Vargr, and Sword World worlds along the edges. That would be a fun time to adventure in. And I think it would imply that a lot of the nobility in the Marches was colonizing nobility, not 'uplifted' indiginous leaders.
Also, it seems it wasn't a frontier for long - after the 1st Frontier War, it settled down to being a 'buffer zone' area between the various powers. (And thus risky for capital investment, and so not a lot of development over the next several hundred years.)
Do we have *canon* data for Core? (Not DGP stuff.) I thought it was the Marches, and the Solomani Rim.
My contention is that it's possible that the core, older, developed sectors should be generated with modifiers like the Solomani Rim, and that it's possible (and IMHO probable) that these older sectors are more developed and populous than just the CT sysgen would indicate. (GDW tweaked sysgen to get the Rim, why not the other developed sectors?) That would alter a lot of analyses about the 3I as a whole - i.e. it's not so empty, weak, etc.
Also, I would contend (probably more importantly) that there's a range of possibilities - including mine and the "only use CT sysgen for the whole 3I" varieties and types in between. We don't know enough about the 3I as a whole to make firm statements one way or the other - and that's good because it allows refs to have it their way.
I think that's assuming CT sysgen for the whole 3I, right? GEnie/sunbane data? I think it's possible the population is greater.
Exactly!Your Imperium, of course, may see things diffently.
RobD:
I'd say that probably about 80% would know who their Moot Rep is, and the Subsector Duke. Probably about 70% would know the Sector duke, Archduke, and Emperor.
As to caring about the imperial government... well, many people locally don't give a rats ___ about the federal government, since 90% of their legal interactions are state and local. Take a look at the few federal crimes: Racketeering, Forgery (of fed docs), Treason, Drug Possession/Dealing, kidnapping... In Alaska, at least, most of these are prosecuted under state law, with federal as a backup plan...
Given what we know from canon, probably 99% of a non-starfaring individual has to do with the Imperial laws is hidden in local world laws, anyway, and constitutes some 1-2% of the laws they deal with. Unless, of course, they are one J(Naval) of the border. Those worlds are FAR more likely to take an interest, since any invader is likely to NOT leave the locals as a status quo new subject...
Now, those who actually travel (Which, based upon the costs in MT, a ticket is 6 months salary per jump for the middle classes...) will be a small sliver, and usually a trip outsystem will be a "once in a lifetime" kind of deal, since we're talking a round trip being a year's salary to the neighboring system, and each jump further is another year at joe-normal-income.... Retirees, religious extremists, and people on business trips.
This latter group has to actually deal directly with imperial laws, rules, and practices.
In re Population:
Assuming a 1% growth rate per annum, and a thousand years, and a 10 billion start, that gives roughly 65 year doubling time, and (rounded off to mils at 10 year, then by decades, and again at centuries) 1000 years gives 207287.05 billions at end. (Yes, 207 trillion)
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">from a spreadsheet
Years 10 50 100 500 1000
1.000 1 1 1 1 1
1.001 1.0100451202 1.0512448324 1.1051156977 1.6483094164 2.7169239322
1.002 1.0201809634 1.1050605536 1.2211588272 2.7155685207 7.3743123904
1.003 1.0304082571 1.161573381 1.3492527194 4.4716366829 19.995534623
1.004 1.040727734 1.2209155932 1.4906348856 7.3596371759 54.16425936
1.005 1.051140132 1.2832258149 1.6466684921 12.106842099 146.57562561
1.010 1.1046221254 1.6446318218 2.7048138294 144.77277243 20959.155638
1.015 1.160540825 2.1052424206 4.4320456495 1710.0984944 2924436.8604
1.025 1.2800845442 3.4371087197 11.813716351 230108.51827 52949930179
1.030 1.3439163793 4.3839060187 19.218631981 2621877.2342 6.8742402312e+12
1.035 1.4105987606 5.5849268557 31.191407983 29523979.593 8.71665371e+14
1.040 1.4802442849 7.1066833463 50.504948184 328601581.58 1.0797899942e+17
1.045 1.5529694217 9.0326362725 81.588518032 3615307345.3 1.3070447201e+19</pre>[/QUOTE]
I'd say that probably about 80% would know who their Moot Rep is, and the Subsector Duke. Probably about 70% would know the Sector duke, Archduke, and Emperor.
As to caring about the imperial government... well, many people locally don't give a rats ___ about the federal government, since 90% of their legal interactions are state and local. Take a look at the few federal crimes: Racketeering, Forgery (of fed docs), Treason, Drug Possession/Dealing, kidnapping... In Alaska, at least, most of these are prosecuted under state law, with federal as a backup plan...
Given what we know from canon, probably 99% of a non-starfaring individual has to do with the Imperial laws is hidden in local world laws, anyway, and constitutes some 1-2% of the laws they deal with. Unless, of course, they are one J(Naval) of the border. Those worlds are FAR more likely to take an interest, since any invader is likely to NOT leave the locals as a status quo new subject...
Now, those who actually travel (Which, based upon the costs in MT, a ticket is 6 months salary per jump for the middle classes...) will be a small sliver, and usually a trip outsystem will be a "once in a lifetime" kind of deal, since we're talking a round trip being a year's salary to the neighboring system, and each jump further is another year at joe-normal-income.... Retirees, religious extremists, and people on business trips.
This latter group has to actually deal directly with imperial laws, rules, and practices.
In re Population:
Assuming a 1% growth rate per annum, and a thousand years, and a 10 billion start, that gives roughly 65 year doubling time, and (rounded off to mils at 10 year, then by decades, and again at centuries) 1000 years gives 207287.05 billions at end. (Yes, 207 trillion)
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">from a spreadsheet
Years 10 50 100 500 1000
1.000 1 1 1 1 1
1.001 1.0100451202 1.0512448324 1.1051156977 1.6483094164 2.7169239322
1.002 1.0201809634 1.1050605536 1.2211588272 2.7155685207 7.3743123904
1.003 1.0304082571 1.161573381 1.3492527194 4.4716366829 19.995534623
1.004 1.040727734 1.2209155932 1.4906348856 7.3596371759 54.16425936
1.005 1.051140132 1.2832258149 1.6466684921 12.106842099 146.57562561
1.010 1.1046221254 1.6446318218 2.7048138294 144.77277243 20959.155638
1.015 1.160540825 2.1052424206 4.4320456495 1710.0984944 2924436.8604
1.025 1.2800845442 3.4371087197 11.813716351 230108.51827 52949930179
1.030 1.3439163793 4.3839060187 19.218631981 2621877.2342 6.8742402312e+12
1.035 1.4105987606 5.5849268557 31.191407983 29523979.593 8.71665371e+14
1.040 1.4802442849 7.1066833463 50.504948184 328601581.58 1.0797899942e+17
1.045 1.5529694217 9.0326362725 81.588518032 3615307345.3 1.3070447201e+19</pre>[/QUOTE]
True - my example wasn't the best. I think most Americans (80%) know who the President is.
With progressively less recognition down the chain until you get to something like your home town precinct/ward (maybe). But that's probably because the President gets a good bit of press time, whereas the others don't. Depends on how much control a local noble has over communications in his desmesne - he could twist things around to make the Emperor look weak and remote and he, the local noble, is the real mastermind/base of power, etc.
True - but do most people feel themselves people of a particular state, and then Americans?
I tend to think it's the other way 'round - but that too is probably due to the pervasiveness of the 'federal media'.
And even with a lot of credits thrown at it, I suppose things in the 3I would be more like other suggest - more 'loyal' to your world, then the 3I.
Personally, I'd rather see it something more like citizens of 18th/19th c. Britain (I think).
With variety though - those citizens/worlds near borders with enemies are probably more pro-imperial, while those around Vland or other cultural regions are probably not. Would make for interesting differences in territory when travelling.
So they just finance the trip over N years, like we do!
I do see that conclusion as harder to contend with, but I still would prefer just a *bit* more travel being possible in the OTU. Not anything like StarWars, but instead of "once-in-a-lifetime" maybe "once-every-5-years".
How many people could make a two-month journey to Europe (ok, how many Americans!) Not just cost of travel, but cost of staying there, plus cost of taking 4-6 extra weeks off work unpaid, etc.
But it would be nice if it were slightly more common for people to take journeys - vacations to other worlds, every few years. Hmm, maybe every decade. Don't want it too often.
I think that depends on the local culture. Many people I've met from New York City think it defines America. And many, but not all, people who live in Texas over 10 years or who grew up here think of themselves as Texans first, then Americans.
That generalization specifically excludes people in Dallas or Houston. But, really, that feeling is tronger in the small cities and rural counties than it is in the big cities.
Most Alaskans, Hawaiians, Samoans, and US Virgin Islanders I've know think of themselves as their state/tedrritorial affiliation first, US Citizens second (if at all!). Y'see, the feds are pretty remote, and quite unwelcome.
Most of the Samoans from American Samoa that I've met (and a lot of them wind up in Alaska) do not even realize that they are US citizens.
And most of the east-coasters I've met seem to think the US ends at the big muddy mississippi river... and that NYC is the center of the universe.
It's all relative. Given the remote nature of the Imperial Gov't, the more remote examples are probably far better.
Most of the Samoans from American Samoa that I've met (and a lot of them wind up in Alaska) do not even realize that they are US citizens.
And most of the east-coasters I've met seem to think the US ends at the big muddy mississippi river... and that NYC is the center of the universe.
It's all relative. Given the remote nature of the Imperial Gov't, the more remote examples are probably far better.
Bill and Aramis make good points/examples.
Which is good - it shows there's variety on this subject in the US and it's various locales.
Like I said above,
Which is good - it shows there's variety on this subject in the US and it's various locales.
Like I said above,
I've always wanted some kind of indication in a UPP for whether or to what degree a world is 'imperial' or 'pro-imperial' or 'of imperial culture' - vs. just absorbed and had/has it's own rules (the "nobles because they're rulers" thing), their own culture, or for some reason dislike or test the imperials.And even with a lot of credits thrown at it, I suppose things in the 3I would be more like other suggest - more 'loyal' to your world, then the 3I.
Personally, I'd rather see it something more like citizens of 18th/19th c. Britain (I think[ - not sure what that really means]).
With variety though - those citizens/worlds near borders with enemies are probably more pro-imperial, while those around Vland or other cultural regions are probably not. Would make for interesting differences in territory when travelling.
In case this is still unanswered: Partial data, yes, in the Atlas of the Imperium. It identifes the high population worlds, starport classes, bases present, and "water present". </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly - it's still unanswered in canon, so there's a big range of possibilities:
- from the Core being statistically similar to the Marches (using CT sysgen) or
- beign similar to the Rim (using some whatever GDW mods were used) or
- even more extreme on either end.
-- Imagine Capital being at the center of a sector of almost desolate , unpopulous worlds never repopulated after the Consolidation Wars/early expansion,
-- or it being Trantor-like among a sector full of TL F worlds - the high-pop ones listed in AOI being jam packed with sophonts.
AOI (and other canon) just doesn't give enough information to draw economic/population/military strength conclusions about the 3I as a whole.
Peter Newman
SOC-12
Aramis said
"In re Population:
Assuming a 1% growth rate per annum, and a thousand years, and a 10 billion start, that gives roughly 65 year doubling time, and (rounded off to mils at 10 year, then by decades, and again at centuries) 1000 years gives 207287.05 billions at end. (Yes, 207 trillion)"
And since we know that there are not that many people in the Imperium than we know that overall population growth wasn't that high.
Population growth may be an artifact of medium tech levels. At low tech levels population won't usually grow very fast, because it can't. At medium low tech levels, maybe 5 to 7 or 8 population can, and often does, grow rapidly. At even low stellar tech levels population may not grow rapidly and can even shrink. Look at contemporary Europe where the original populations are breeeding well below replacement rates. IIRC Italy is down to about 1.3 children per woman. The only reason their populations aren't already dropping are immigrants, and the children of immigrants.
Its a lot cheaper to immigrate between countries on the same planet than between planets, so immigration is likely to be less significant in the Imperium than on contemporary Earth. Of course this does depend somewhat on cultural factors, but even when cultural factors discourage it some people that _can_ use birth control do use birth control.
It may be that the factors encouraging the use of birth control have less to do with the overall population of your planet and more to do with how the relative economic return of having children. Thus even if little Suzi and Eneri can get land for their new house at CR 1 per acre and move out once they hit 18 or 19 if you've spent more feeding and educationg them than they'll give you back by supporting you in your old age are you really going to bother having them?
A desire for s*x is instinctive, a desire for procreation is not. Once you get reasonably reliable and cheap contraception things change. For us this change has happened in living memory in the west and is still in process in the developing world. The Third Imperium has had the pill longer than we've had bronze. Only a small fraction of the Imperial population lives at TL's too low to make birth control pills, condoms or cheap sterilization.
They can probably get imports, pills are small, light, and cheap to ship.
Therefore I don't think we can axiomatically assume that there will be populaion growth at all. On the other hand, TNE sources such as calcualtions of post collapse populaion do tend to assume that most planets will have population growth, but TNE is operating under a very different set of sociological and technological influences, and is not necessarily indicative of pre Virus populaion dynamics.
YMMV.
(I'm limiting my comments to human populations, obviously aliens are, well _alien_ !)
"In re Population:
Assuming a 1% growth rate per annum, and a thousand years, and a 10 billion start, that gives roughly 65 year doubling time, and (rounded off to mils at 10 year, then by decades, and again at centuries) 1000 years gives 207287.05 billions at end. (Yes, 207 trillion)"
And since we know that there are not that many people in the Imperium than we know that overall population growth wasn't that high.
Population growth may be an artifact of medium tech levels. At low tech levels population won't usually grow very fast, because it can't. At medium low tech levels, maybe 5 to 7 or 8 population can, and often does, grow rapidly. At even low stellar tech levels population may not grow rapidly and can even shrink. Look at contemporary Europe where the original populations are breeeding well below replacement rates. IIRC Italy is down to about 1.3 children per woman. The only reason their populations aren't already dropping are immigrants, and the children of immigrants.
Its a lot cheaper to immigrate between countries on the same planet than between planets, so immigration is likely to be less significant in the Imperium than on contemporary Earth. Of course this does depend somewhat on cultural factors, but even when cultural factors discourage it some people that _can_ use birth control do use birth control.
It may be that the factors encouraging the use of birth control have less to do with the overall population of your planet and more to do with how the relative economic return of having children. Thus even if little Suzi and Eneri can get land for their new house at CR 1 per acre and move out once they hit 18 or 19 if you've spent more feeding and educationg them than they'll give you back by supporting you in your old age are you really going to bother having them?
A desire for s*x is instinctive, a desire for procreation is not. Once you get reasonably reliable and cheap contraception things change. For us this change has happened in living memory in the west and is still in process in the developing world. The Third Imperium has had the pill longer than we've had bronze. Only a small fraction of the Imperial population lives at TL's too low to make birth control pills, condoms or cheap sterilization.
They can probably get imports, pills are small, light, and cheap to ship.
Therefore I don't think we can axiomatically assume that there will be populaion growth at all. On the other hand, TNE sources such as calcualtions of post collapse populaion do tend to assume that most planets will have population growth, but TNE is operating under a very different set of sociological and technological influences, and is not necessarily indicative of pre Virus populaion dynamics.
YMMV.
(I'm limiting my comments to human populations, obviously aliens are, well _alien_ !)
Well, a big point in my posts has been that we don't know a lot of things for certain about the 3I. (On purpose and for good game-design reasons.) So there's a range of possible values for many of the things we're talking about - it's just that with the non-canon GEnie/sunbane data people assume it's canon, or near enough to canon, and base their extrapolations on that.
It's possible the TU could be much more populous than currently assumed, if the older more developed sectors are more heavily populated than CT sysgen would have you believe. It's also possible it's *less* populated.
I don't believe the 3I has a one-dimensional uniform distribution of population across all sectors and subsectors, based on CT sysgen. CT Sysgen was for 'interesting'/adventuresome subsectors. I think the older sectors are more populated, more uniform in being at higher TLs and possible more uniform in government type and law level (fewer 'non-imperial' worlds with their own cultures, more mainstream 'imperial' worlds) -- except for the various cultural areas - so it's not two-dimensional either (more populous in older areas), but the cultural regions have their own spins on the 'imperial culture' giving an added dimension.
<steps down off creaking soapbox>
Good points. And how does anagathics use affect that too?
Not have children until you're in your 50s or 60s - a "second career"? Having multiple 'phases' (didn't want to say 'litters') of children, some in your 20s-30s, some in 50s-60s, some in 80s (if live to 120+)?
You could have great-uncles younger than yourself.
Hmm - most women and a good number of men I know really do want children (that ego immortality thing perhaps). It may not be instinct, but there is a strong drive to procreate too.
I quite agree.
We should strive to develop extrapolations or conclusions that encompass the range of possible values for TUs for the subject in question, not try to divine the One True Value for the OTU. That lets people tailor their TU as they like it and be close to the OTU and have the benefits of the analyses.
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