Imperial population distribution.

[rgd]

Not like East/West empire at all; you're right, it was a split, not a united empire.

I don't think we have anything like it to compare.

It seems more like a federation of independent states that share such a strong common culture (ruthlessly imposed) that it looks like one thing but it may have been 3 (or 4) 'triplets'.

The splitting of the one ZS when it got too big into smaller ones seems very interesting - how did it happen? what were the issues/problems/fallout?

(The questions of culture and life in the ZS has been on my mind lately.)

Nevertheless, they had to govern all that space for millenia somehow, and distributed uber-control is the only way I can think of it.

I agree. Rigid caste system - no chance for advancement out of your place, no chance for 'rocking the boat'. Probably severe punishments for doing so. I'd think there'd have to be some big 'pluses' for being part of the ZS or that culture to not cause rebellion (even if it's more propaganda, especially toward the end, than anything else).

A Spartacus-like rebellion would be an interesting bit of ZS history. Imagine the players finding a world with the descendants of such a rebellion still living on - very Vilani at first glance, but (radically?) different culture. Pitcairn's World...

It also helps explain how the Terran Confed was able to topple it. It's already brittle and not communicating with itself.

And it also explains why the Rule of Man was unable to hold it together as it fell apart: they created one administrative capital.

I agree.

In game terms, I don't suppose it matters very often.

Probably not - but I think if the Vilani play a large role in your TU, then it makes sense to have a good idea for what their culture was like. Kind of like having an adequate grasp of ancient Chinese history to understand some bases of the Chinese culture.

Rob

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Rob D.:
*snipped for brevity*

Agreed on all counts, Rob D.

I was particularly interested in your "Spartacus-like" Vilani rebellion - Judges Guild offered something similar a couple of decades ago:

Settled by nomadic peoples of primarily Vilani extraction during the break up of the First Imperium, this state quickly expanded to its present borders. A rather static civilization has arisen with many conservative features as throw-backs to nomadic days. The most prominent example is the fact that there are three separate capitals which each serve as supreme capital in turn. The people are individually excitable and agressive, but, as a whole, the cultures are almost static.

This describes the Range Valyana stellar polity in Maranatha-Alkahest subsector - an intersting variant Vilani culture.

 

[rgd]

Thanks, BGG - that's a cool catch. (Good memory!!)
*rummage, rummage, rummage*
Ah, here it is. JG's Maranatha-Alkahest Sector.
Wow that's been years since I read through that.
An interesting sector. (Needs a map by Scarecrow though!)

It'd be interesting to see a culture/polity based on one that actually broke away *before* the ZS broke up - that had the, er, intestinal fortitude to break away and make it stick. (OK, that probably meant running far, running fast...) Could there have been a charismatic "we don't have to live like this" type leader that rallied oppressed caste-bound Vilani masses to his call? A Hari Seldon type or Paul Muad'dib Atreides (well, without the jihad aspect).
How far and hard would the bureax have chased them, to discredit them and stop any further rebellion? I guess I want to know more about ancient Vilani culture.

(I suppose V&V go into that, but I'd have to *have* that and if it's not canon anymore how much credence can one give it?)

Well this is far from on-topic.

Rob

 

[aramis]

Marc never decanonized it publicly. He did publish that he can't allow direct derivation, but he never decanonized it. (He was VERY careful in the T4 era.)

JG's stuff WAS decanonized (Atlas is specific.)

 

[rgd]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Marc never decanonized it publicly. He did publish that he can't allow direct derivation, but he never decanonized it. (He was VERY careful in the T4 era.)

JG's stuff WAS decanonized (Atlas is specific.)

So one can use it in one's TU, but not publish anything that is based on that or uses it's assumptions and conclusions and observations.

Fine for individual refs, but not really useful for anyone wanting to write/publish anything, even on a non-profit fan basis.

I know we've talked about this on the TML, and as I recall the concensus was that licensed publishers could write new stuff about the Vilani and have it 'overwrite' the DGP stuff.

Of all the races described in GT:Humaniti, and AR1,2,3, and 4 - I don't see the Vilani described and one could argue they are the most in need of a full book treatment. Solomani next. (But doing so does kind of restrict the kind of general atmosphere of 'average citizens' in the OTU.)

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Rob D.:
Of all the races described in GT:Humaniti, and AR1,2,3, and 4 - I don't see the Vilani described and one could argue they are the most in need of a full book treatment.

I do think a good Vilani book would be a welcome addition.

 

[mike wightman]

The Vilani do get a comprehensive write up in GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars.

 

[Peter Newman]

"The Vilani do get a comprehensive write up in GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars."

1) GURPS Traveller is a variant.

2) More importantly the Vilani of the Interstellar Wars era are 3,000 years removed from those of the late 3rd Imperium. They;ve changed (probably not as much as many other human cultures would in 3,000 years, but still wuite a bit). Material from GT:IW is therefore less useful, in fact it may even be misleading, say if you tried to use the Vilani template to build a Vilani of 3,000 years later.

Just as I would not use The Illiad and the Odyessy to plan my vacation to the same area today, you shouldn't use GT:IW as anything other than a general starting point for late Imperial citizens of Vilani heritage and/or culture. YMMV.

 

[rgd]

Originally posted by Peter Newman:
"The Vilani do get a comprehensive write up in GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars."

1) GURPS Traveller is a variant.

But what else do we have?

2) More importantly the Vilani of the Interstellar Wars era are 3,000 years removed from those of the late 3rd Imperium. They;ve changed (probably not as much as many other human cultures would in 3,000 years, but still wuite a bit). Material from GT:IW is therefore less useful, in fact it may even be misleading, say if you tried to use the Vilani template to build a Vilani of 3,000 years later.

Just as I would not use The Illiad and the Odyessy to plan my vacation to the same area today, you shouldn't use GT:IW as anything other than a general starting point for late Imperial citizens of Vilani heritage and/or culture. YMMV. [/QB]

No but the culture of the Vilani of CT times is based on that of the earlier times - there is some commonality, a history - that will play at least a small part in defining who they are 'today'. And what else do we have? V&V?

 

[Jame]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
The Vilani do get a comprehensive write up in GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars.

True, but I think what we want is something more thorough.

 

[GypsyComet]

More thorough than comprehensive? Tough crowd.

Oh, and GURPS:Traveller-1120 is a "timeline variant". GURPS:Traveller-Interstellar Wars is, AFAIK, historical canon.

In BOTH cases, setting details that are not specifically timeline-variation dependent (or which deeply contradict prior work, like "Behind the Claw" does) ARE considered official.

That said, most of the "never before seen" races from the GURPS:Traveller Aliens books are suspect, counter-genre, or just bad. I'll use the oddest of the T4-Alien Archives races before touching the Valkyrie, and that "touch" is still going to be with a flame-thrower...

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
The Vilani do get a comprehensive write up in GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars.

I haven't looked at it.

I've been put off by the GURPS Traveller books - I considered purchasing a number of GT titles, but each time I picked one up to preview I ended up putting it back in the bin.

I've tried to figure out what I dislike about the GURPS books, and the closest I've come is, "All space. No opera."

 

[aramis]

I've tried to figure out what I dislike about the GURPS books, and the closest I've come is, "All space. No opera."

Pretty much what Malenfant touts about them, BGG...

Oh, and GURPS:Traveller-1120 is a "timeline variant". GURPS:Traveller-Interstellar Wars is, AFAIK, historical canon.

Please, where does Marc Miller state this?

The initial announcement of GT was "Non Authoritative." Unless MWM has since changed that, GT is interesting, but stands as alone as T2300/2300AD... Yes, it's traveller, but no, it's not the OTU.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by GypsyComet:
Oh, and GURPS:Traveller-1120 is a "timeline variant". GURPS:Traveller-Interstellar Wars is, AFAIK, historical canon.

In BOTH cases, setting details that are not specifically timeline-variation dependent (or which deeply contradict prior work, like "Behind the Claw" does) ARE considered official.

I'm not sure that's correct. I know that G:T authors tried hard to keep G:T stuff consistent with previously published information, and I know that Hunter and Jon (or Martin and Loren, or some other combination of SJG and Quicklink people) made an effort to coordinate material, but I think that was more in the nature of editorial choice than of official policy.

Certainly SJG felt free to correct some inconsistencies from CT and Quicklink felt no obligation to conform to those changes. But that was mostly rules changes, and if you don't feel the need to explore the ramifications of rules changes, you can pretend they don't affect the background universe. So I think that it's reasonable to assume that background information from one version applies to other versions unless there are reasons to believe otherwise (obviously contradictory statements cannot both be true at the same time).


Hans

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Rob D.:
And what else do we have? V&V?

Well, we've got the Vilani Grammar...

 

[Maladominus]

Originally posted by Plankowner:
The Third Imperium may be held together with similar ideas. We are IMPERIAL citizens and that idea of IMPERIALISM is what keeps everyone together. It's an US and THEM kind of arguement, but human history has shown it to be a very strong idea. Remember, the Third Imperium had the glorius history of the first two Imperiums to draw on. Was is valid for Cleon to claim the Third Imperium as being a direct descendant of the first two? Probably not, but the IDEA of IMPERIUM was obviously very strong in human space and that IDEA probably holds everyone together.

The concept of Imperial patriotism is only valid if you assume that the Imperial government spends a huge amount.... hundreds of trillions of credits (each year) to reinforce Imperial propaganda.

Without Imperialist propaganda, you cannot hold together such a large state like the Imperium, especially when the official policy is to allow ever member-world to govern their own affairs as they see fit.

On the Solomani Confederation side, it is much much easier to believe the necessity for pro-Solomani propaganda. The Solomani are a One-Party state, and the SolSec (and other terror police apparati) swiftly bring a huge can of whoopass to any dissidents and potential traitors. It is a safe assumption that the Solomani Party spends TONS of money on propaganda. I can imagine little Solomani kindergarten children (those who attend state-subsidized schools) are brainwashed at Age 5, and they are taught to believe in Solomani Racial Superiority as early as possible. The textbooks of Solomani 6th grade children teach them about the champions and heroes of the Terran Confederation, and the heroic generals who sacrificed their lives in the Solomani Rim War, and the famous and legendary explorers and conquistadors that explored and settled the many sectors during the Terran Diaspora, settling worlds from the nearby Magyar and Diaspora sectors, and colonizing sectors as far as the Spinward Marches.

They are possibly even taught that the Solomani Confederation decisively "won" the Rim War, and that it was the Imperium that desperately begged for peace (armistice).

Hypothetically, if I were the ruling Secretary-General of the Solomani Confederation, that's exactly how I would brainwash my people. I would make sure to spend trillions of credits in state propaganda every year. Make sure that every little Solomani child is indoctrinated in the ideology of The Cause. And make sure that they all grow up into fine young patriotic men and women.

An extreme sense of nationalism/patriotism is one of the few things that help to hold together a large nation-state. It is indeed an reinforcement of the "Us versus Them" mentality.

Now, going back to the Third Imperium, I really do not see it as having any clearcut "social glue". What is the social glue that holds it together? Is it that all 11,000 worlds worship Strephon as a Living God? Oh no. That's not it. Then what is it?

 

[robject]

I suppose it's that all 11,000 worlds worship Marc Miller as their creator...

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Originally posted by robject:
I suppose it's that all 11,000 worlds worship Marc Miller as their creator...

With the Keith Brothers as demigods?!

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by robject:
I suppose it's that all 11,000 worlds worship Marc Miller as their creator...

With the Keith Brothers as demigods?! </font>[/QUOTE]All hail the great Chadwick!

 

[flykiller]

Now, going back to the Third Imperium, I really do not see it as having any clearcut "social glue". What is the social glue that holds it together?

there isn't any. most people spend their lives on their own worlds - other worlds are far distant and too expensive to contact, much less car about. but the imperium rules the space between the stars. it's an entire world all by itself. scouts, marines, nobles, traders spend decades away from their homes relying on imperial support and structure. they are the citizens of the imperium because that way of living is their home.