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Imperial Marines IYTU

Vargas

SOC-14 1K
I'd be interested in other peoples' conception of how Imperial Marine units would be configured in your Traveller universe. While it's entirely in keeping with the style of the OTU, I can't help but think that a 57th century Marine battalion, for example, looks an awful like a 21st century marine unit. What do you think is missing from a true TL F setting? Should it be more like the Mobile Infantry from Starship Troopers? Include robots?
 
Yes and yes. I can't answer what a TL-F force should look like; I barely know what a TL-7/8 force looks like!

IMTU, they receive both Rifle-1 and Vacc-1 along with Cutlass-1 (no way is any proper space military going to send its grunts out armed with swords, not when the enemy has FGMPs!).
 
Given the weapons at TL F - I see manuever (combat infantry) units in battledress with a squad being used the way a tank company is used today.

Non BD units would be support elements - including MPs, mechanics, artillery (or ortillery depending), pilots, cooks, engineers, etc - all trained to function as light infantry (riflemen) if needed but with other specialties as well. The tooth to tail ratio (combat to non-combat) will likely be very low by our standards (just judging from the historical trend - as tech goes up, support needs per combatant go up as well.)

I also agree that the 57th century marine will be highly skilled. Rifleman 1 is a must. Probably communications 1 as well. Cutlass 1 for tradition (or not depending on YTU) A specialty skill will also be a must (selected by branch / assignment). Most true combat marines will be battle dress trained in a TL F force. Those that aren't will be trained in Ortillery, Commando ops, piloting (grav, fighter, or ships boat) or some similar specialized combat skill.
 
The way I see it (based on LBB4), Imperial Marine "line" infantry would be battledressed and equipped with grav-belts; the primary armament would be FGMP-14's so the default skill should probably be High Energy Weapons rather than combat Rifleman. Only non-battledressed marines (the various support arms listed by SGB) would probably be trained in the Combat Rifleman by default/

Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
Given the weapons at TL F - I see manuever (combat infantry) units in battledress with a squad being used the way a tank company is used today.

Given the grav-belts which are probably issued to Imperial Marines, I could eaily see manuever (combat infantry) units in battledress with a squad being used the way a group (wing?) of helicopters is used today.
 
Given the grav-belts which are probably issued to Imperial Marines, I could eaily see manuever (combat infantry) units in battledress with a squad being used the way a group (wing?) of helicopters is used today. [/QB]
One of the things I was wondering was whether or not a squad, nominally 8 people today, wouldn't be treated as the equivalent of a tank platoon (nominally four armored vehicles) in the TL F setting. I guess a lot depends on how effective you see battledress/fusion weapon equipped troops as being.

And what kind of air support are we talking about at that TL? Autonomous 'smart drones'? Manned gunships? (Or is the answer simply, whatever is coolest ;) ?).
 
What do you think is missing from a true TL F setting?
hard to say. it's like ancient romans wondering what a 21st century legion would look like. "every man will have a horse!"

probably a lot more psy- and psycho-war - chemicals, sonics, terror ('scuse me, "shock and awe"). a lot more attacks on materials - gasket reducers, corrosives, insidious chemicals, emp, sensor opaquers (a paintball gun works real well against someone wearing a face plate). paint grenades, laser grenades, emp grenades, robot grenades, maybe gravity grenades. probably an extreme reliance on drones and artillery of whatever sort - hard to argue with a man who has a factor 9 meson gun on-call. and when you go that far back pretty soon there's no room for infantry, it's all decided by ships, and the only role infantry has is in the peripherial corners where the ships can't reach or are too destructive.

nah. by tech F there won't be marines, just a navy and a few ship's troops.
 
I'd say manned G-unships replacing both MBTs and heavy helicopter gunships. The Imperium isn't really into drones (outside of surveilance roles) and combat robots - that's a Zhodani territory
 
Yeah but look at what their main missions are supposed to be according to Book 4 - police actions, raids, ship troops, counter-insurgency/internal security.

Much of this would be wildly inappropriate for battle-dressed guys with FGMP-14's.

Think about Iraq where tank crews are having to serve as infantry because tanks are not much use for internal security and counter insurgency.

Except during the Fifth Frontier War even Marines will be in a very similar situation - full battle kit is more a last resort than in daily use.

In chargen terms what you really need is a sensible rule about the combat skill cascades that doesn't pretend that there is no similarity whatever between pointing a rifle and a laser or hi-energy weapon at a target.

I just houserule that all gun combat skills default to half level for all other types of guns (obviously you might vary that for an archaic arquebus user picking up an FGMP-14).

Also rule that Marines get ALL the skills in Book 4 they are qualified to roll for at level-0 and that this is enough for effective use.

This solves the Marines without Battledress problem or hi-energy weapons problem.
 
If you're cutting loose from the OTU entirely then Forever Peace by joe Haldeman has wars conducted by robot drones remotely controlled by soldiers fighting from within a drug-induced VR environment many miles away from the action.

The same idea also crops up in Ken MacLeod's Star Fraction where the battledress suits are empty shells controlled by video-troopers safe in a bunker somewhere.

The T4 book Emperor's Arsenal also replaces regular battledress at TL-13+ in favour of flying armoured one-man battle pods - which while it completely screws Traveller canon actually makes a lot of sense at least on the battlefield.

The same book also has a nice selection of non-lethal weapons like thud-guns, hazers and flashers which I think would be heavily used in internal security ops as main battle weapons pose greater collateral damage threats.
 
Much depends on the rules. For example in CT there is little advantage to Battledress over Combat Armor. In T20, there is lots to say in favor of BD over Combat Armor.

The big thing missing is a suppressive fire weapon. There isn't the equivalent to a Squad Automatic Weapon or Machinegun.

IMTU, (T20 rules) there are three branches of Marines. Line Marines (By far the most common), Ground Forces Marines (Used for Planetary security and similar missions where the Army isn't available or it wouldn't be politically a good idea to deploy an Army unit for one reason or another.) and Marine Commandos.

Ground Forces Marines are task organized and may have vehicles, such as APC's and may be equipped to a level other than TL-E+ (depending on era). These units are formed specifically for the task at hand and most Marines that serve there spend most of their career there. There are usually Marine NCO's and some officers, specifically senior officers that are transferred in from Line units. During the course of a deployment there will probably be some transfers out. (Though if you started there you are likely to need additional training to go to a "Normal" fleet unit.)
Fleet Marines serve aboard Starships, serve as Starport security (Usually as a Quick Reaction force leaving the mundane tasks to contracted locals, and Embassy Guards.) These are the Marines normally encountered and what most citizens and enemies of the Imperium think of when they think of Marines.

They specialize in rapid strikes from Starships, Boarding Operations, Seizing High Orbitals, etc.

Because of their reliance on Starship transport (After all the Navy would rather carry more missiles or supplies) Fleet Marines are largely light units. Because the environment they are likely to operate in is Vacuum and not on a planetary surface, they also tend to be light and instead of Tanks and traditional armored vehicles they are generally equipped with a specialized Light Fighter. (Multi-purpose makes more sense than specialized vehicles because of both lack of space aboard ship and not knowing where or under what conditions they will be deployed.

Line Marines are organized into a Squad of two 4 man fireteams. (8 men, which happens to be how many are on a Type-T.) Each Fireteam will have 2 marines equipped with Gauss Rifles, one with an FGMP-14 or 15 and one with a Light Tribarrel (Figure 3 Gauss Rifles welded together). Each Marine in the Fireteam is equipped with a special Marine Battledress which includes excellent passive sensors, laser comms, and a dual Grav/Leg drive. The Squad Leader leads the first fireteam and a team leader leads the second fireteam. At least one member of the squad is also trained as a Combat Lifesaver (Not quite a medic but almost.).

Three of these squads form the core of a Fleet Marine Platoon. The platoon will also have a Weapons squad. (Squad Leader and Team Leader with a Gauss Rifle.) This squad will be equipped with a mix of FGMP-14/15s and Tribarrels. (Mission dependent, as many as 6 of one.) The Platoon will have a Platoon Leader, Platoon Sergeant, and a Medic. (Total 35 members the same as the Marine complement of a Kinunir.)

A Company is made up of 3 Platoons, a 15 person Medical section. 4 Light Fighters (Crew of 2 and 1 member of a ground crew.)12 member HQ Section, which includes the Commander, the XO and a First Sergeant. (Total 150 members, the same as the Marine Complement on a AHL.)

I have it figured out to brigade level.
 
I see marines being used where the navy can't or won't shoot - this usually means inhabited structures where I just can't see battle dress being maneuverable and FGMP being appropriate. given the majority of operations will be in built-up technical environments I see the main theme of marine ops as being one of isolation - strategic isolation by jump distance, tactical isolation by environment, personal isolation inside a suit of combat armor that only communicates with the outside world through a heavily shielded visor HUD and a comm system.
 
Traveller has always had issues with the looniness of TL14 and TL15. The implications of things like "cheap plentiful fusion power" and "grav plates" have forever locked me down to TL9-12 games of Traveller. That level of high tech just isn't fun for me - it's passed from sci-fi into magic for me.

Take for instance Marc Miller's "Battle Pods" (which are really 'small vehicles' instead of 'armored infantry'). If you're putting infantry into battle pods, you don't truly need them anymore - like cavalry in WW2. While people are going to bring up the UK's "Defense White Paper" when I say this, I would go out on a limb and say that infantry and ground actions by TL14 and 15 would be as obsolete as fighting with swords and shields is in the modern day. You need infantry to go into people's houses and such without damaging them too much and a battle pod is still a bull in a china shop for a purposes like that. If you need more indiscriminate firepower, who needs a battle pod? Get a grav tank.

Example: Couldn't you just stick a 10,000 dton antigravity "Big Brother" Navy starship hovering over cities requiring pacification? The primary difference between tanks and aircraft on one hand and infantry on other is their ability to disperse and hold ground - that is, stop and stay in an area, be difficult to wipe out with assurance, as well as search houses for insurgents and such. With antigravity and fusion power so easy, you could have a heavily armed and armored Navy ship hover over the ground indefinitely and "take ground." It's going to be nigh invulnerable to anything the people on the ground have by that point because the Navy would have blasted them all when they were closing on the planet. Stick in neural sensors or just really powerful computer-filtered audio mics, video, and more esoteric sensors on them and have computers scan for people speaking subversive things then just blast them with high resolution meson guns, thus reducing collateral damage and the dangers of having to enter houses. Make having shielding good enough to prevent monitoring to be a crime (punishable by Meson blasting) - TL15 sensor would probably be good enough, combined with like required microchip implanting and such to monitor the overwhelming majority of places. Eventually, the people in the city below would be so terrified of your invulnerable navy ships, they'd stop misbehaving. Depending on your level of automation (and I don't see why a 10,000 dton ship in TL15 would have a crew larger than say, six guys), you could probably overlord a hi-pop world with like a few hundred guys, a few thousand at most.

But frankly, where's the fun in that? So here's my stab at some mission for the Marines in TL15.

It's assumed that you have small starships/grav tanks that can be loaded down with meson guns and similar high power weaponry for close support, so your Marines are basically be pretty thin on offensive firepower of that sort. On the protection end their armor is going to be environmentally sealed and in the best protecting armor that can still easily use normal doorways and passages as well as grav belts for maneuverability (battle dress of some sort - light or heavy - the weight won't matter with those omnipresent grav tech). Their weapons would be stuff that is lethal, but not indiscriminately so - their foes are likely not to have heavy armor themselves, so you'd probably see a lot of use of non-lethal solutions (neural/sonic stunners or stun gas or flash/bang grenades which is good for PR) and high but precise firepower like X-ray lasers. Perhaps if there are situations where the long finger of area fire of their support vehicle doesn't reach (I can't really imagine it with meson guns, but it might occur), they might carry a combo stunner/laser weapon/FGMP in a similar mode to a modern M203. Such Marines would be used for pacification missions and similar nasty urban guerrilla missions (this is assuming that "Solomani Happy Genes", "Imperial Terror Drugs", or "Zhodani contentment wave generators" similar blanket solutions that you'd expect by TL15 don't exist for cinematic reasons). Assume that the Navy can blast any concentrations of troops in the countryside or in the open so you just don't have pitched ground actions anymore - at most it's local tanks and infantry getting molested from orbit.

I also imagine you'd probably see Marines with organic and dedicated close support at a squad level - I would say a vehicle that is a combination of APC, Grav Tank, field base, and space ship. This thing would be awesomely heavily protected (with grav tech, it could weigh many tons and still hover over houses) and carry the overkill weaponry that the squad might need, fulfilling the tank and close support role. The troops would be carried in "tubes." These tubes would be a combination of low berth, bed, and armored survival bubble. It would carry a soldier in full kit. When the soldier enters it, it provides an airtight seal and automatic hookups could instantly put the soldier to sleep by wave induction (this would be done for travel as well to reduce feelings of claustrophobia - dream induced VR would let the grunts talk with each other and monitor their surroundings en route).

The tubes could handle a lot of battlefield surgery by sticking the soldier within the tube then automated waldos could perform the majority of surgery non-invasively using TL15 field projection technology. In the most critical cases, it would go into cold berth mode to preserve the soldier for further treatment. If the APC is destroyed (somehow) the tube would eject from the APC and be survivable enough so that some of the Marines would survive. In orbit, it would go into cold sleep mode when life support began to run out (but would otherwise be like a survival bubble) while on the ground, anti-gravity would trigger for the pods to go into orbit and await Navy retrieval there.

Extra ammo and food would be provided by dispenser packs on the outside of the hull (while in tubes, they could be feed via IV or something).

Deployment would be either the top of the tube opening or the bottom and the trooper just sliding out using his grav belt.
 
Originally posted by epicenter00:
Traveller has always had issues with the looniness of TL14 and TL15. The implications of things like "cheap plentiful fusion power" and "grav plates" have forever locked me down to TL9-12 games of Traveller. That level of high tech just isn't fun for me - it's passed from sci-fi into magic for me.
I fail to understand how you associate that with TL 14-15 specifically. That's all pretty well true by TL 10-11.
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
I fail to understand how you associate that with TL 14-15 specifically. That's all pretty well true by TL 10-11.
You do have a point, Anthony.

I just find that the closer that one gets to the TLs where they start talking about "Anti-Grav Cities" the more sustainable such stuff gets. Traveller (for me) starts to seriously break down when anti-gravity becomes the solution to any kind of lifting and iPods have fusion+ reactors in them. I don't see that sort of thing quite happening until like 14+.
 
Originally posted by epicenter00:
You do have a point, Anthony.

I just find that the closer that one gets to the TLs where they start talking about "Anti-Grav Cities" the more sustainable such stuff gets. Traveller (for me) starts to seriously break down when anti-gravity becomes the solution to any kind of lifting and iPods have fusion+ reactors in them. I don't see that sort of thing quite happening until like 14+.
Actually, fusion power plants never fit in iPods. Also, grav stuff is still expensive, and I would say we have no way of predicting what even TL11 stuff would be like, and so when in doubt, do it the way that is the most interesting.
 
One reason I asked this question originally is reflected in the last few posts. At TL F, weapons are incredibly deadly and long ranged and I figure, as it suggests in Mercenary, that tanks/APCs/close air support have merged into single vehicles that look like none of those three. In fact, are vehicles like that even required? Why not use autonomous grav propelled smart bombs? Wouldn't the meson gun be the king of the battlefield and be sited at fire bases protected by its own meson screens and point defense systems waiting for the moment when the troops take down the other guy's meson screens and can then open fire?

I dunno, that's why I asked.

Now at the smaller scale, say urban fighting a la what we see today in Baghdad, I picture the Marines in combat armor and using weapons less lethal than plasma and fusion rifles, io only because thet'll also be doing the hearts and minds thing.
 
I don't think tanks/APC/air combo would really be used. APCs carry soliers and give them some extra firepower. Tanks kill things on the ground like infantry, buildings, and other tanks. Fighters are used to kill things in the air, and have to be fast and manuverable.
 
I'm dubious about the combination too.

Of course, "realistically" it is highly likely that there would be a lot of drones used, with various degrees of autonomy.

Regardless of this, however, there would still be humans somewhere in the loop, and they would need to be transported. Furthermore, they would need to be able to operate in *all* environments, whether in vacuum, in insidious atmospheres, underwater, or in a city, and do so on an extended basis.

To me that implies something along the lines of an APC. A fully sealed, all-environments, Grav APC, equally capable of operating at the bottom of the ocean, or on the moon.

Variant models can be used to carry drones (and "other stuff") or to carry drone operators.
 
IMTU the Imperial Marines use two 50dton vehicles/small craft. One is the Marine Support Vehicle (MSV) which is sort of an APC, but more like a mobile base for a Marine squad. It has bunks and battledress recharge stations, life support for a month and is armed for self-defense.

The other vehicle is the Marine Combat Vehicle, which is a flying battlefield meson gun with full indirect/direct fire control.

Both vehicles also mount nuclear dampers and (my own invention) battlefield meson screens.
 
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