Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Every ten years, check for a ship quirk, which can be remedied by a lengthy stay at a shipyard.
Space craft classification societies’ in Traveller?
- Thread starter Chris Barlow
- Start date
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
I certainly disagree that most small ships would regularly use unrefined fuel and hence expect to occasionally misjump.
There is no business case for risking the ship, at a risk value of several MCr (and the crew's lives) per occasion, to gain a few kCr.
If you have to visit class D starports it is much cheaper to use demountable or collapsible tanks with refined fuel, than risking misjump.
MT basically makes real misjumps impossible with a bit of skill and using a cautious task. Exceptional failure on a Simple (3+) task is difficult to achieve.
TNE makes real misjumps unlikely, and impossible with above-average C+S (>10).
Either way the danger is mostly gone. I always used the LBB2 roll instead, to make it simpler and more "interesting".
As far as I can see the wear value only affects breakdowns, not misjumps?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
In CT77 edition ships were stuck to routes on jump lanes until they could afford the generate programme.
Worlds with C-E starports appear on jump route maps, therefore commercial traffic goes to those worlds where only unrefined fuel is available on a routine enough basis that you can buy a ticket for passage at a moments notice.
Do the ships that service these worlds risk a misjump every trip? I doubt it. It is much more likely they carry the fuel for the next jump as cargo.
Worlds with C-E starports appear on jump route maps, therefore commercial traffic goes to those worlds where only unrefined fuel is available on a routine enough basis that you can buy a ticket for passage at a moments notice.
Do the ships that service these worlds risk a misjump every trip? I doubt it. It is much more likely they carry the fuel for the next jump as cargo.
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But, see, that's unworkable.
If there's a very high chance of a ship being lost within 5 years, nobody is going to back that ship.
And if it can be mitigated to where it is safe(r), then those mitigations will be accounted for in the costs of shipping. If a ship needs to routinely carry an extra J1 of Fuel, or another 20 G-hours, or supplies, then all of the J2 ships will have J3 of fuel in them, with commensurate reductions in cargo capability and resulting increases in costs of shipping.
As perhaps cheap as life is in the Post Third Imperium, capital is cheaper, and "Things can be done" to lower the risks. Deep Ocean travel, deep sea fishing, is uncertain, but not necessarily unsafe, and we don't lose 20% of the fleet each year.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Subsidized merchant; government backed insurance, more prevalent during wartime.
what about the crew?
unless wartime, prospect of average 5 to 10 years career?
insurance work for owners, but it is my life and I dont intend to die to cash in on a policy.
furthermore, think of the premium. Much more cheaper to buy a purification plant than pay insurance premium equivalent to a new ship every 5 years
have fun
Selandia
unless wartime, prospect of average 5 to 10 years career?
insurance work for owners, but it is my life and I dont intend to die to cash in on a policy.
furthermore, think of the premium. Much more cheaper to buy a purification plant than pay insurance premium equivalent to a new ship every 5 years
have fun
Selandia
Right, no one is going to fly these things either.
It's "just a job".
E.J. Rocket Man.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Probably why the Draft still exists in Five Kay.
I would assume inspection is part of the annual maintenance process and part of any process involving repairing damage to ship's equipment - and the responsibility of the company doing the maintenance or repair. I'd keep that in the duckfeet department unless the ship was overdue for maintenance, in which case the player might find himself barred from taking passengers and freight (except for those willing to engage in off-the-books passage or freighting). If it's a question of not getting battle damage repaired, a visual inspection in port should be able to identify a ship that's taken battle damage, with more detailed inspection occurring if battle damage is seen. I'd expect that to be pretty variable. Class Ds and Es aren't going to have an inspector; they wouldn't be able to do anything if the guy found something. A/B/C would have them.
I don't do insurance. Not that it isn't a good idea, but it never came up in the milieu that I can recall, so I always figured that for duckfeet too, one of the many things that occurs out of sight that keeps things moving. The traveler can buy insurance if he wants it, as can the company that wants their freight moved, and the insurer will determine the rate based on how safe they think his chosen flyer is. The insurer may come after you, though, if they feel they had to pay out because of your negligence.
Jump is very safe at the level of the scheduled large freighters and liners that ply established routes between A/B/maybe-C ports. Jump is not necessarily safe at the level of the tramp freighter plying the outback ports, sucking up unrefined fuel to cut costs, making off-the-book deals with Guido to deliver this case of fill-in-the-blank to his buddy on Focaline. For one thing, the Imperial government is more likely to step up if that ten-thousand-tonner disappears on a regular scheduled route to Aki from Glisten than if you and your free trader disappear en route to Focaline.
I don't do insurance. Not that it isn't a good idea, but it never came up in the milieu that I can recall, so I always figured that for duckfeet too, one of the many things that occurs out of sight that keeps things moving. The traveler can buy insurance if he wants it, as can the company that wants their freight moved, and the insurer will determine the rate based on how safe they think his chosen flyer is. The insurer may come after you, though, if they feel they had to pay out because of your negligence.
Jump is very safe at the level of the scheduled large freighters and liners that ply established routes between A/B/maybe-C ports. Jump is not necessarily safe at the level of the tramp freighter plying the outback ports, sucking up unrefined fuel to cut costs, making off-the-book deals with Guido to deliver this case of fill-in-the-blank to his buddy on Focaline. For one thing, the Imperial government is more likely to step up if that ten-thousand-tonner disappears on a regular scheduled route to Aki from Glisten than if you and your free trader disappear en route to Focaline.
Given the GDP per capita in Striker (which is decanonized, just for reference) and the canon 13 month year... (Note that the canon year of 13 months only seems to be 12 payments a year, so the min 2 weeks downtime probably, and IMTU and IM analysis here, it's generally the ship's crew's vacation time)...
TL15 Rich Ag world is Cr42,240/year
TL12 neither rich, poor, ag, non-ag, in, non-in is Cr12,000 per year
Ship's Captain is Cr6,000 for Cr78,000/year (has to work the month of maintenance)
Ship's Navigator is Cr5,000 for Cr60,000/year (has maintenance off)
Ship's Engineer is Cr4000/mo or Cr52,000/year (has to work maintenance)
Stewards at Cr3000/mo, Cr36,000/year (has maintenance off unless the captain's wanting his services)
Medics at Cr2000/mo, Cr24,000/year (Has maintenance off)
Rousts and Gunners at Cr1,000/mo, Cr12,000 (has maintenance off)
A ship's captain is well off - no living expenses and clearing 1.5x as much as the upper middle class in the wealthiest worlds!
Even many TL 10 worlds, it's average GDP per Capita, and that's usually around 4th quintile... quite well off to even be a cargo roust or gunner.
These kinds of jobs are going to attract quite a few of the lower classes from TL9+ worlds...
I'm not digging through T5 to figure out the current canonical equivalent values... but suffice it to say, Ship Crews make GOOD money.
Compare this to the mercenaries...
A Merc Colonel (per Bk 4) makes Cr2,000 a month. Same as a ship's Medic.
A Merc Private makes Cr300 a month.
Simply put... Ship crews, even lowly rousts and gunners, make ground officer pay...
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
"I find your lack of verisimilitude disturbing."
The game system is built for play, and seeking verisimilitude ends in disappointment. Some of the play-intended ideas are kinda dumb and don't stand up to examination.
If the pricing structure doesn't make trade profitable, no bank would loan money for a ship. End of story. If you have a very large down payment, then the lower bank payments would allow profitable trade to whatever degree enabled by the down payment. A cash purchase makes money handily, but it still has a 20+ year ROI without speculative trade.
Not that spec trade is so bad, it just can't be reliably projected for the purpose of repaying a loan, therefore it can't secure a loan.
The game system is built for play, and seeking verisimilitude ends in disappointment. Some of the play-intended ideas are kinda dumb and don't stand up to examination.
If the pricing structure doesn't make trade profitable, no bank would loan money for a ship. End of story. If you have a very large down payment, then the lower bank payments would allow profitable trade to whatever degree enabled by the down payment. A cash purchase makes money handily, but it still has a 20+ year ROI without speculative trade.
Not that spec trade is so bad, it just can't be reliably projected for the purpose of repaying a loan, therefore it can't secure a loan.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
After all these years...
the trade rules, the ship payments rules and the encounter rules are all for playing the game from the perspective of a PC scale group.
GDW in other games had rules for resource manufacture and spending, construction and maintainance etc for whole worlds and fleets.
To try and derive the economic systems of the Third Imperium from the PC scale ship financing and trade rules is destined to fail since there are so many other variables that do not even get a mention, most of which have come up in this thread.
The trade 'rules' for a megacorporation shipping line plying the trade lanes are very likely different to the PC scale of things.
the trade rules, the ship payments rules and the encounter rules are all for playing the game from the perspective of a PC scale group.
GDW in other games had rules for resource manufacture and spending, construction and maintainance etc for whole worlds and fleets.
To try and derive the economic systems of the Third Imperium from the PC scale ship financing and trade rules is destined to fail since there are so many other variables that do not even get a mention, most of which have come up in this thread.
The trade 'rules' for a megacorporation shipping line plying the trade lanes are very likely different to the PC scale of things.
I'm broadly in-line with a few of the other posters in this thread.
In terms of regulation of the safety of ships hull & architecture, and regular inspections, the design of a ship should first be approved by the SPA (CT Canon, pp37-42 JTAS #19, even if they did call it the Skyport Authority
), it being an Imperium-wide civil organisation devoted to the operations and safety of Starports, and as a result, having the authority to approve or deny landing rights.
Similarly, regular inspections could require civilian shipping to call into a class A-C port for annual safety inspections without too much added budget requirements of the SPA; a fee for the time involved in the inspection would usually be charged, based on the size of the hull.
In terms of enforcement, as has been mentioned in previous posts in this thread, the SPA has the statutory right to withhold the approach/landing/docking or liftoff/undocking/departure of any ship on safety or medical grounds, with fairly stiff financial and penal penalties attached for non-compliance.
The only ships that would escape the SPAs authority would be military ships.
In terms of regulation of the safety of ships hull & architecture, and regular inspections, the design of a ship should first be approved by the SPA (CT Canon, pp37-42 JTAS #19, even if they did call it the Skyport Authority
), it being an Imperium-wide civil organisation devoted to the operations and safety of Starports, and as a result, having the authority to approve or deny landing rights.Similarly, regular inspections could require civilian shipping to call into a class A-C port for annual safety inspections without too much added budget requirements of the SPA; a fee for the time involved in the inspection would usually be charged, based on the size of the hull.
In terms of enforcement, as has been mentioned in previous posts in this thread, the SPA has the statutory right to withhold the approach/landing/docking or liftoff/undocking/departure of any ship on safety or medical grounds, with fairly stiff financial and penal penalties attached for non-compliance.
The only ships that would escape the SPAs authority would be military ships.
BackworldTraveller
SOC-13
And don't forget these pays rates include board and lodging.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Times it by five.
There's a difference between the pay grade of a private in the Imperium Army, and what a highly skilled recently retired special operations operator costs you.
Or even what private military contractors charge super power governments for security specialists, they may have recruited from third world societies, not just discharged veterans from their own militaries.
If mercenary wage gap is below median, that reflects supply, demand and desperation.
There's a difference between the pay grade of a private in the Imperium Army, and what a highly skilled recently retired special operations operator costs you.
Or even what private military contractors charge super power governments for security specialists, they may have recruited from third world societies, not just discharged veterans from their own militaries.
If mercenary wage gap is below median, that reflects supply, demand and desperation.
Chris Barlow
SOC-10
Space craft classifciation societies article in Freelance Traveller
It can be found in the latest September/October 2020 edition of Freelance Traveller.
To everyone who has commented on my original post and is still interested. I have expanded on my original post to write an article(s) for Freelance Traveller Magazine. Many thanks to Jeff Zeitlin for all his help in editing the first article.
It can be found in the latest September/October 2020 edition of Freelance Traveller.
