How fast does the Imperial Navy react?

[rancke]

I'm working on a scenario where a major (non-military) disaster strikes Kinorb. What i need is to estimate how long the PCs will have to fend for themselves before serious help arrives.

The news of this disaster reaches Efate in 13 days (two jumps). I threw some dice for the duration of the jumps, and once I figure out when the relief expedition leaves Efate, it'll be trivial to do the same and see how long it takes to reach Kinorb. What I find it difficult to do is estimate how much time it will take for the admiral in charge of the Efate Base (and his staff) to decide on the best response and how long it will take to get the expedition organized.

Obviously there will be a range of possibilities. The key people at Efate Base may all be exceptionally efficient or exceptionally inefficient. Or they could be pretty averagely competent. So what sort of timescale do you think we'd be looking at? Hours? Days? Many days?


Hans

 

[aramis]

Depends on the Admiral at Efate. If he's a tin-plated dictator type, minutes. If he's a vilani consensus seeker, 1-3 days of council with his advisors and them with theirs, and back to him. A really slow response would probably be a week or so.

Maybe a week at the outside if no further outside resources are needed.

Mobilization of ready forces should be within 24 hours of "Go"... further operational forces, if they mirror the US, should be able to deploy in 48-72 hours (2-3 days), some sooner (about 1 in 36), and a few not so soon (say, 3 in 36, those taking 3+1d6 days)

 

[Gadrin]

I'd have to think the term Contingency is a big word in the IN
vocabulary.

During the formation of an areas fleets or the reorganization and
other planning events they'll probably have something basic at
least worked out.

Can they plan for everything ? No.

But I have to think that given the distances and travel times built
into the 3rd Imperium, they've got an idea of what's what.

Once news reaches Efate, the first thing is a roundup/staff meeting
and deciding on a course of action. I'd say 24 hours max turn around
time on that, and the rest is getting what's available ready to go.

YMMV

>

 

[far-trader]

I'm working on a scenario where a major (non-military) disaster strikes Kinorb...

Kinorb 2202 or Kinorb 2512? :smirk:

The urgent message lands on the desk of Admiral Newhere, recently transferred from Rhylanor subsector...

"What the devil? How is this our concern? They're over in Rhylanor. Must be some mix-up, the report must have followed me here. I hope Rhylanor subsector command has a copy on file. I'd better send a special courier message to be sure."

Many weeks later a reply comes from Rhylanor...

I know, you just picked the one(?) system name in The Marches that is duplicated. But I can see a mix-up such as the above happening too easily because of it. Even without a harried recent transferee in command.

To your real question, no real answer, just more things to think about.

What are the politics of the situation. Who's problem is it really? Pixie is closer. What are the Scouts on Dentus doing about it? Does the request need Capital (Regina) approval?

What is the urgency of the situation? And are the ones reporting it to be believed? Are they active service or civilian? Trustworthy or not? Maybe a small assessment team to verify and determine the level of response required before any major planning is even considered.

The variables could add considerable time.

But, if everything is best scenario then I think a pretty good sized force could be on the way within hours. There'd be fast reaction forces and plans in place for a wide range of emergencies. They may not be able to do much except lead the way and organize things on the other end for the forces that follow though. A sort of damage control first responder and organizational operation. As for how big a force, well they won't want to leave Efate short handed but they may be able to send fast couriers to other systems to forward more resources.

I'd say, after the news arrives, in the best case scenario, help of some kind (probably just assessment teams) will arrive in two weeks via J4s through Pixie (perhaps pulling in additional resources from Pixie on the way).

Serious help, depends on what you mean by serious I guess. The bulk of the help will be arriving following hot on the heels of the assessment team in the best case scenario. Unless the assessment team is to report back first, then you add the travel time back and assessment time.

 

[Lycanorukke]

I'd say model it after any one of disasters today, but when it comes to transfering of men, messages and materials slap on a week for jump transit.

The initial request goes out, and takes a week to get to Pixie (nearest naval base). A smallish rapid reaction force is sent immediatly to gather intel and proivde basic recovery assistance to limited areas -another week. In the mean time the main force at the Pixie base preps ships and rounds up equipment and personnell and forwards the message to Eftate. Once the rapid force reports back - say a week and a half, the main force is deployed and another message relayed -another week. So a full disaster response would be running after 4 weeks or so, with more trickling in from Eftate over the next few weeks.

The scouts at Dentus would be much better for a rapid reaction force as they would be more used to dealing with unplanned situations and rapid reaction - so a second ship sent there would be helpful.

This all of course assumes that a spanner isn't thrown in the works.

Maybe the courier misjumps (they were pushing their ship hard), maybe the local politicans refuse help (like the Kursk), maybe the Scouts and Navy get into fights regarding who runs the show reducing their effectivness, or Admiral Shineybum spends more time turning it into a PR exercise than being useful.

Of course it depends on the nature of the disaster as well - having your sun about to go nova would probably have any many ships deployed as possible.

On Edit: Thinking a little further - the actual time to get the rapid reaction force moving would probably be less than the +/- 10% jump factor, so from a PC's point of view unless Eftate really screwed the pooch "think & prep time" would probably not even be noticed.

 

[aramis]

It took a week for the first post-Katrina disaster relief efforts to be publicly seen in place on the news...and that was a two week disaster, with no comm lag.

 

[Lycanorukke]

It took a week for the first post-Katrina disaster relief efforts to be publicly seen in place on the news...

I was considering mentioning that, but decided to steer clear of the politics of the situation out of wishing to avoid a flames. Once the various politicans and departments got off the pot, things moved quickly, the only problem was material logistics.

So once again it rolls around to how Ranke envisions Admiral Shineybum. A blue blood noble who says "let them eat cake" while in his pleasure cruiser? A ex-native of Kinorb who will marshal everything he can? A penny pincher who sends minimum resources based on bad intel? Another reason to send the 'Help Me' message to more than one system - if one dithers another may temporaily fill the gap.

But once 'the word' was given things could star moving quickly (logistically at least).

OUt of curiosity though - would Eftate be under any obligaiton to assist? The Imp rules the spaceways but as I understood it - they stayed out of planetary politics. The Navy may be obligated but the Eftate govt may just say "get stuffed".

 

[rancke]

I know, you just picked the one(?) system name in The Marches that is duplicated.

Aramis/Aramis and Aramis/Trin's Veil.
Heroni/Rhylanor and Heroni/Mora.
Inthe/Regina and Inthe/Glisten.
Margesi/Vilis and Margesi/Rhylanor.
Mirriam/Five Sisters and Mirriam/Vilis.
Natoko/Aramis and Natoko/Rhylanor.

But I can see a mix-up such as the above happening too easily because of it. Even without a harried recent transferee in command.

It's the Kinorb specified in the message header.

What are the politics of the situation. Whose problem is it really?

I assume the Imperial membership treaty boilerplate includes provisions for protecting member planets from outside aggression and providing help in times of dire need. Also, I've made Kinorb into a retirement and vacation resort. There are currently 300,000 retired businessmen, primarily from Efate and Regina and primarily from the upper 1% of their respective societies living on Kinorb, plus 330,000 tourists, again primarily from Efate and Regina, most of them from the upper and upper middle classes. So I've assumed that the Imperial authorities will want to lend a hand sooner or later.

Pixie is closer. What are the Scouts on Dentus doing about it? Does the request need Capital (Regina) approval?

Pixie? Where's Pixie? Oh, you mean that utterly insignificant world there?

I'm assuming Pixie is not a factor. Whatever that naval base is doing there, they're busy and understaffed. In any case, I've decided that the X-boat director only had two X-boats ready, and that she sent both of them to Boughene (that dodge cuts the average message transit time down by 5 hours).

There will be some immediate relief efforts from the Kinorban defense forces in orbit, but they'll be swamped; it's a planetwide disaster.

What is the urgency of the situation? And are the ones reporting it to be believed? Are they active service or civilian? Trustworthy or not? Maybe a small assessment team to verify and determine the level of response required before any major planning is even considered.

Yes, that might be plausible. After all, the primary task of the naval forces at Efate is to defend against Zhodani and Vargr aggression.

But, if everything is best scenario then I think a pretty good sized force could be on the way within hours. There'd be fast reaction forces and plans in place for a wide range of emergencies. They may not be able to do much except lead the way and organize things on the other end for the forces that follow though. A sort of damage control first responder and organizational operation. As for how big a force, well they won't want to leave Efate short handed but they may be able to send fast couriers to other systems to forward more resources.

Oh yes. I'm assuming a major naval base will have couriers by the squadron.

I'd say, after the news arrives, in the best case scenario, help of some kind (probably just assessment teams) will arrive in two weeks via J4s through Pixie (perhaps pulling in additional resources from Pixie on the way).

Jump-6 couriers can get to Kinorb in one jump. so can jump-5 cruisers. Jump-3 transports can get there in two jumps. Yes, what I'm after is more a grasp on the reaction time issues.

Serious help, depends on what you mean by serious I guess. The bulk of the help will be arriving following hot on the heels of the assessment team in the best case scenario. Unless the assessment team is to report back first, then you add the travel time back and assessment time.

The authorities at Boughene will be reacting faster, but may not have quite the resources. Also, everybody's top priority will be to rescue the tourists and retirees. The Kinorbans are the ones that are going to get the lowest priority. Them and any footloose adventurers, of course :devil:.


Hans

 

[rancke]

So once again it rolls around to how Rancke envisions Admiral Shineybum. A blue blood noble who says "let them eat cake" while in his pleasure cruiser? A ex-native of Kinorb who will marshal everything he can? A penny pincher who sends minimum resources based on bad intel?

"[The 213th Fleet's] commander is Sector Admiral Baron Vadid Ligl, a Bwap who proved to be one of the archduke's greatest supporters. In 1118 Baron Ligl was given the position of sector admiral. A brilliant admiral, he is affectionally known by his men as "Gilly" (but seldom in his precense)." [BtC:79]​

Another reason to send the 'Help Me' message to more than one system - if one dithers another may temporarily fill the gap.

Yes, I am going to take into account efforts by other worlds to help.

OUt of curiosity though - would Eftate be under any obligation to assist? The Imp rules the spaceways but as I understood it - they stayed out of planetary politics. The Navy may be obligated but the Eftate govt may just say "get stuffed".

No, I don't think Efate would be obligated to help (unless the Imperium invoked some sort of treaty obligation to help the Imperium, and if it does, then I think the Imperium would have to pay for what it requested). But there'd be tremendous domestic pressure on the Efatan government. There might even be a turf war with Efate insisting on handling things alone, or at least be in charge of the rescue operations.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Does the IN have authority to act without a noble telling them what to do?

If so the local commander can mobilise contingency plan delta pretty quick.

If he has to wait for his political masters to make a decision it could take an awful lot longer.

 

[kmsoice]

Serious help arrives

Ummm, have you all not made a error in assuming that 'serious help' could arrive from a different system?

The total travel time alone is 2 x 13 = 24 days, consider that exposure can kill a person in as little as 1 day, thrist in a week and starvation in a month. That is assuming that there are enough & large enough starships in Efate to transport sufficent goods to support or give refuge. I think you could darken the sky with Subsidized Merchants and Liners and still not be able to take care of millions of destiute people.

Unless you count the 'serious help' the Imperial could offer in a [sudden!] disaster as taking the bones from out of the hands of a few wreched cannibals living in the ruins then any real help has got to come from prepositioned forces and stores within the system. Of course there is never enough stores, no one ever thinks that clearly that far ahead, everyone cost cuts, sure the Imperium is going to send as much help as soon as it can but I think your PCs have a better chance of getting 'serious help' sooner from the Kinorb govt than anything from Efate.

 

[rancke]

Does the IN have authority to act without a noble telling them what to do?

If the Age of Sail analogy holds true in this respect, yes. Unless the political masters are actually present, that is. Since Norris is down in Mora and Josephine of Efate is on Regina, subbing for Norris, I think the admiral would be able to act fairly freely.

After all, the noble who usually tells the regular IN what to do is the sector duke. Josephine's deputy probably has the legal right to veto any plan of the admiral's, but it would cost him dearly to do so and be disawowed later.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Ummm, have you all not made a error in assuming that 'serious help' could arrive from a different system?

I'm not saying that the help would be any help.

The total travel time alone is 2 x 13 = 24 days

A bit more than that.

...consider that exposure can kill a person in as little as 1 day, thirst in a week and starvation in a month.

And a rioter with a shotgun in 6 seconds.

That is assuming that there are enough & large enough starships in Efate to transport sufficent goods to support or give refuge. I think you could darken the sky with Subsidized Merchants and Liners and still not be able to take care of millions of destiute people.

The core of the adventure is how the PCs survive exposure, thirst, starvation, rioters, etc. It doesn't matter how many NPCs are left alive when the cavalry arrives. The point is that once it arrives, the adventure is over.

Unless you count the 'serious help' the Imperial could offer in a [sudden!] disaster as taking the bones from out of the hands of a few wreched cannibals living in the ruins then any real help has got to come from prepositioned forces and stores within the system. Of course there is never enough stores, no one ever thinks that clearly that far ahead, everyone cost cuts, sure the Imperium is going to send as much help as soon as it can but I think your PCs have a better chance of getting 'serious help' sooner from the Kinorb govt than anything from Efate.

There will be some Kinorban forces trying to help, but they will be swamped. That's why there's an adventure in the first place (That, and the mystery and the coverup, of course ). There's very little adventure in "As every bit of electronic equipment around you fails simultaneously, panic threatens, but then the authorities show up with grav busses and hot chocolate".


Hans

 

[Easterner9504]

Disaster

Depends on personalities and chain of command.

When Vesuvius erupted fleet commander Adm. Plinius (Pliny the Elder) ordered all ships to sea from Naples, no consulting, instant reaction. He died of heart failure from breathing in too much ash personally directing rescue efforts.

in La. Katrina the exact opposite of the above. Each leader (local, state, Fed) waited for someone else to give orders, no one did and chaos erupted. In equally hard hit Miss. the opposite occurred and the governor took charge and got things done.

 

[Shadowfax]

Assuming that they even want to help. I mean, after all who is going to pay them for helping? You should have it be a massive imperial communications cock-up through all the layers of politics and bureaucracy and then have the PC's first offers of real help come from either an "community charity organization" (the Ine Givar) or a clan of Vargr Corsairs. That will make them scratch their heads and get them into real trouble setting up the next leg of your adventure. ; - )

 

[Kilgs]

For purposes of the adventure, I love the idea of the mix-up between planets.

"Realistically," I would think the Imperium is extremely fast-acting. Upon receipt of a dispatch, I would have the local commander ready a single sortie within hours if not sooner. In fact, based on the limitations of communications, it's very likely that there is a small force (Assault ship, Small Carrier) that are hovering around the naval base ready for just such an occurrence.

The Imperium wouldn't last if it took weeks to respond to every crisis. As impressed in numerous places, the Imperium functions by the will of the local commander and there is a significant amount of responsibility/leeway provided to an individual on the "front" when they are incapable of receiving messages for several weeks.

If it weren't needed for purposes of the adventure, I'd have at least a 5000 ton cruiser drop in to see what the heck was going on. Likely supported by some smaller vessels.

 

[flykiller]

fleet response, if any, would depend on fleet composition. if your idea of a fleet does not include support ships then the fleet will have very little disaster response capability. after all, their job is to destroy, not to fix.

missionary, hospital, safari, and university organizations may have a better response time, and better capability. and private cargo haulers and private liners will of course see great business opportunity in responding to a planet full of desperate people.

imtu the imperium theoretically owns every jump-capable vessel. usually this legal fact is ignored, but your scenario would be a good opportunity to mandate a response.

 

[Spinward Scout]

We've covered this a couple of time here on the board. Most recently, I think is my thread here:

Depending on the situation, the rule of 3's from survival training could help determine the outcome.

You can survive:
3 minutes without air
3 hours without shelter in extreme weather
3 days without drinkable water
3 weeks without food

Of course, YMMV.

Relying on outsystem resources to help is almost certain doom. If you've survived by the time help comes from another system, you probably don't need the help.

I know that's not exactly the answer to your question, but might help you determine how events unfold. I'm sure there are contingency plans for evac and rescue. Since you're talking a 3-4 week jump turnaround, the planetary Duke at the notification end might even write the planet off if the disaster is big enough. But he'd probably be required to send someone. Bulk cargo transports would have the most room for emergency passengers. Naval warships wouldn't have the room. IN conscription of cargo ships (with recompense, of course) would probably be normal. It would depend on what's in-system at the time.

Hope that helps

 

[savage]

Disasters are Us

I agree with that... very difficult to respond and a percentage of disaster may be discovered post mortem. However, this could continue on forever. Fema has playbooks for each disaster and the IN equivalent would do the same. If the govt doesn't know the scale of the disaster they'll respond with the scout service.

Really its the type of disaster that needs to be identified with possible storylines.
1) star trek infection - the world has a pandemic and needs medicine from the sector capital ASAP. The naval vessel gets the meds from a courier and pushes the envelope to arrive before everyone is lost.
2) solar flare - cooked the planet... you find it weeks later.
3) Mass loss of crops from a natural disaster. People are starving but the planet has some food supplies. Ok. the navy forms a convoy of vessels to support getting supplies. The planet is eventually billed for the expense.
4) asteroid collides with planet. Depending on the size it could have a range of results.
5) etc

 

[CosmicGamer]

Spinward Scout, thank you for the rule of threes. Good point regarding relying on outsystem resources.

Unless I missed it, exactly what the disaster is has not been defined by the OriginalPoster. The composition of the forces available to respond also has not been defined so I'm not going to speculate regarding what type of response there might be.

So what sort of timescale do you think we'd be looking at? Hours? Days? Many days? Hans

IMO, if there are any jump capable forces assigned, at least one ship will be on alert and capable of jumping out within hours, if those in charge decide to send it. Again, not knowing what the disaster is or what resources are available to be spared (maybe there is a current conflict and this may be a ploy to get forces redirected elsewhere) there is little to base an opinion on. In general, you can probably find a way to justify any response time that best fits the needs of your adventure.

If you have more details to give us, we can give you, hopefully, more useful opinions regarding what the response will be.