How do you apply Scientific Principles?

[Keklas Rekobah]

This is rather long...

I'm starting a new topic here. The intent is to take known scientific principles, or actual discoveries in science, and apply them to the Traveller milieu. Also, intended is a forum for suggestions that would add detail to any version of Traveller.

(My ideas may not be any more scientific then others covering similar topics - granted. I am trying to avoid topics in other forums like; "TNE sux cuz it ain't GURPS!", or "What's so hot about GURPS, anyway? It is not the be-all and do-all of science-fiction role-playing games!")

For example:

1) Many of us know that stars are classified by type {W,O,B,A,F,G,K,M,L,T}, Subtype {W0,W1,W2, ... T7,T8,T9}, and Class {Ia,Ib,II,III,IV,V,VI}. Why are there no tables within the Traveller system that include the Type L & T stars?

L & T stars were relatively unknown before 1998. They are stars that are too small to have ignited the hydrogen in their cores to fusion. As for being "painfully uninteresting"; since when is any class of star more interesting than another? One of my intents is to expand the possibilities for planetary development. As for L and T stars being "too old and too cold to have any habitable planets", what self-respecting GM would limit his players to only those planetary environments that are "SIZ-8, ATM-6, HYD-7" orbiting a class G2-V star, anyway? Have you never played your character in an asteroid belt that lies beyond the habitability zone? Now THAT is an environment that is very cold and quite old if you place it in an Oort cloud.

(BTW: R, N, and S class stars are nothing more than "M" class stars with peculiar spectra - some have even proven to be L0, L1, and L2 stars!)

2) Classic Traveller used a 2D system for determining UPP and UWP. This usually resulted in a decimal range of values from 0 to A (A =10). Why not used 3D with DM-3 for a hexadecimal range of 0 to F (F = 15)? This would provide a little more detail to the UWP, at least. For atmosphere, then:

0 - None
1 - Trace, tainted.
2 - Trace.
3 - Very Thin, Tainted.
4 - Very Thin.
5 - Thin, Tainted.
6 - Thin.
7 - Standard, Tainted.
8 - Standard.
9 - Thick.
A - Thick, Tainted.
B - Very Thick.
C - Very Thick, Tainted.
D - Insidious.
E - Corrosive.
F - Exotic.

3) Why does Traveller not use an overall world classification system? To call an Earth-like planet "Class-M" did not originate with Roddenberry and Company. In fact, the term "Class-M World" originated in an old Astronomy paper from the late 1930's! In the 2D system, an Earth-like planet's UWP always begins with "867". Such a code would be for any "Class-M" world. Any world that deviates from the value "867" would have a lower "Class". "767" would be a "Class-L" world, and "000" would be a "Class-E" world. I propose then an addition to the UWP code, such that Earth would be something like "A-867-M-887-A". Anybody who knows where to look would know immediately how hospitable any world's environment would be. That we don't know what is really "out there" is all the more reason to set up a classification system beforehand (the precedent being set by the field of biology, with it's taxonomic classification system). After all, we have classified stellar types {W/O,B,A,F,G,K,M(RNS),L,T} even though we can not see every star in our galaxy - this certainly beats having to describe the spectrum of every star down to fractions of an angstrom. Why not have a shorthand classification system {E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M} for planetary bodies, as well?

M - Ideally Hospitable to Humaniti.
L - Hospitable.
K - Endurable without environmental protection.
J - Survivable, environmental protection recommended.
I - Survivable for short periods without environmental protection, terraforming possible.
H - Not survivable without environmental protection. Terraforming difficult.
G - Extensive environmental protection required. Terraforming very difficult.
F - No terraforming possible.
E - May as well be in open space.

Another historical note: the genre of "Science Fiction" was originally called "Speculative Fiction", which encompassed any piece of fiction that extrapolated on current conditions and known facts to provide an environment where ordinary characters are confronted with extra-ordinary conditions.

Opinions? Thanx!

 

[simontmn]

Interesting discussion - I think you answered your own question about why there are no class L & T (brown dwarf?) stars in the current generation system though, those classes were only introduced very recently. One could argue that there would never be a mainworld around such a "star", but given the way the UPP works, that seems unlikely (a Size 1 vacuum world is surely plausible, at least).

Personally, I think a mainworld-based UPP generation system should probably only generate stars of class F-K, with any outliers created by GM intervention (and those probably just science posts or refuelling stops), but that's me.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

This is how I understand your reply: "Traveller rules are good enogh as they stand, and need not be meddled with." Is this correct?

 

[Merchant Reaper]

If nothing else this forum can be good for brainstorming ideas and concepts, and getting feedback on how to tweak them to be better. Like I am really into nano-tech and have extrapolated a whole bunch of uses based on things i've read in comics, books, and scientific journals, as well as magazines such as Scientific American, Discover, and Popular Science. I have come up with many medical applications, which led to military uses, which led to electronic advancements, then to weapon and armor advancements, including self repairing gear. Now I am debating with myself what TL what particualr advancements should be at, as well as work up a viable history and workable application/understanding of the technology and how it is able to advance. Am I getting too realistic? Yes, but 98% of it is for me alone, even though when I talk to my 7,9, and 11 year old kids about it they find the possiblities very cool and want to play them out. Which in turn has given them extra enthusiasm about real science and math in their school work. This has given me even more incentive to consider creative possiblities about the future. Am I becoming an inventor? Not of real world stuff. But my traveller game has become a lot richer when I give my players news printouts of new technological discoveries or unverified findings of an ancient artifact.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Pardon the rambling nature of this reply, but I'm workin' the threads as they lay down...**chuckle**.

Firstly, I played my first few CT games with a guy who worked with NASA back in the day (part of the Orbiter Payload Team for Viking I), I can tell you that having a rocket scientist at a game table can be a REAL drag! Jokes aside, injecting too much Real or Hard Science tends to be disruptive to the game. It's rather like reading some of Asimov's more obscure "science-fiction for scientists" work. Fine idea, but I'll stick with "I, Robot".

I agree with the continuity arguement as well. Utilizing new data as it emerges is great for plot devices, or adventure complications, but what would Traveller be if GDW, et al, had designed it on 1976 science and tried to keep up since? I don't even want to think about the "Traveller Science Update: 1981" supplement.... That said, the "Reality-based Science-Fiction" premise has served us all very well, and I'm sure that we all agree that Traveller is a hell of alot fun without transporters and tractor beams.

And besides, you can do whatever you want with your game. In my game, I already have a TL 8 (and a half) "Station Icarus" with over 100 permanent residents. And the frames you can get from www.nasa.gov are just spiffy for that sort of thing...

Capt. Ganidiirsi O'Flynn
Master and Commander of the Wastrel's Bride

 

[Merchant Reaper]

Aren't some of those shots on NASA's site awesome for visual aids of "What do I see outside my ship?"

 

[chshrkt]

**Caution! Thread hi-jack attempt to follow**

I love the new flash into to the NASA site, it reminds me of one of the telecom company comercials or something; hip music, cool graphics, and a feel good message.

But to drag this thread back on topic, I think there are as many IMTU rules as there are GMs, and they each probably feel theirs is the best solution for any given situation. As mentioned in another thread, CT provided a basic framework that was easily modified by a creative GM.

I will most likely add several of Keklas' ideas to my IMTU ruleset, but perhaps a little jadedly (is that a word?), I do not expect to see them in anything other than a fan produced supplement to the LBB's (wow, that's a great idea...).

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

Thrash,

In short, I'm not suggesting you give up tilting at windmills, but that you should pick your targets more carefully.

Fair enough. Can you suggest any worthy targets? Thanx.

 

[theSea]

Hey Keklas -

Some responses - just my particular point of view. I don't do rocket science but I've been following Trav for decades and read science and SF voraciously.

Originally posted by Keklas Rekobah:
This is rather long...

No problem. Pull up a chair

The intent is to take known scientific principles, or actual discoveries in science, and apply them to the Traveller milieu.

Okay -but here's a thought. This *is* a game - now before anyone gets their feathers up, I merely mention that fact to preface the following comments on priorities:

A game should be playable
A game should be fun

Accuracy comes in a distent 4th or 5th

Furthermore this is Traveller. Which means that certian things are expected:

Space Opera is integral but should not be over done.
Shotguns and swords are essential items
Communication does not proceed faster than the speed of interstellar travel.
The background as estblished is enormously popular.

Once again - scientific verisimilitude encouraged but not essential. We're trying to capture as feeling here - not quite Star Wars, but the not quite Apollo 13 either - more like Outland.

I'll also mention, as has been noted, scientific 'truth' changes from week to week (as it should) - having your game system chasing every bit of detail in the name of accuracy can get pretty exhausting after the first decade or so. If you want to put in that kind of revision work - just make a Star Trek game and have done

Last point on this and I'll move on. One of the great things about this sort of gaming (pen & paper rpgs) is that all of the 'rules' are pretty much optional - use what you like and discard what you don't.

Want to play more like Star Wars - you can. Want to play more like Starship Troopers (the book not the movie - damn you Paul Verhoeven) that's there too. But I think if you're looking for an exacting re-creation of highly plausible Far Future science and technology - this is probably the wrong system (cough 2d universe cough) - or you are in for an awful lot of work....

(My ideas may not be any more scientific then others covering similar topics - granted. I am trying to avoid topics in other forums like; "TNE sux cuz it ain't GURPS!", or "What's so hot about GURPS, anyway? It is not the be-all and do-all of science-fiction role-playing games!")

Agreed - a much better topic of debate. However different systems do have various different strengths and weaknesses. **Accurate** simulation of real world physics, combat and stellar cartography, is not generally regarded as one of CT's strengths... CT is, however, fun.

1) Many of us know that stars are classified by type {W,O,B,A,F,G,K,M,L,T}, Subtype {W0,W1,W2, ... T7,T8,T9}, and Class {Ia,Ib,II,III,IV,V,VI}. Why are there no tables within the Traveller system that include the Type L & T stars?

<old fart voice>
In MY time sonny - we didn't worry about stars - just worlds. And only one world per hex at that. Maybe a gas giant or two to scim some fuel... It wasn't until Book SIX was released that we started hearing all this new-fangled talk about stars and systems...
</old fart voice>

Seriously, the real question is how does all this improve gameplay? I should think not at all.

If you want type L & T stars in YTU then by all means feel free to update the tables. Most of my players have never even heard of K type stars - much less the exotics.

If someone writes a great SF story which features a Type L star prominently then I think you'll see someone asking it to be worked into the milleau.... but I personally think neutron stars ought to be much higher on the list than most of the other varieties of cold, dark embers. (mmmm.... Larry Niven)

(P.S. he said 'oort' cloud heh heh heh....)

*Snip* an excellent astronomy lesson

2) Classic Traveller used a 2D system for determining UPP and UWP. This usually resulted in a decimal range of values from 0 to A (A =10). Why not used 3D with DM-3 for a hexadecimal range of 0 to F (F = 15)? This would provide a little more detail to the UWP, at least. For atmosphere, then:
*snip* extended atmoshpere example

Additional complexity for little additional gameplay enhancement.... while I agree that the selection of possible atmoshperes is somewhat limited I think the current system serves its purpose.

Besides, 2D6 skews the probabilities towards the more standard type atmoshperes (center of the bell curve) - going to 3D6 would center the atmosphere results even more strongly around 'standard' atmoshperes resulting in (possibly) less variety in mainworld atmospherics.

Once again - the ref (or world builder if you're playing the home game: "Traveller(R) Create a Universe But Never Actually Play In It" - I know I have!) has the ability to assign things by fiat at any time - so if you specifically want a chlorine atmosphere at 300psi then assign 'corrosive' or 'insidious' and write it up that way in your world notes.

*snip* some more excellent thoughts
Why not have a shorthand classification system {E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M} for planetary bodies, as well?

more snippage....

As has been stated - planet classification was tried and died quickly due to lack of interest.

Once again - very elegant thoughts... but an enhancement of complexity with little to no gameplay improvement.... work with the UPP for a while and it's easier to read than a phone number.

Now the High Guard USP - that is a kettle of fish that makes me queasy whenever I look at it.

So what I'm basically saying is that - while everything you suggest is pretty darn cool - I don't see any need to introduce it into a game system (esp. one built around two dimensional space maps LOL) which has been more than adequate to my needs for the last twenty years.

And yes - there are some things about the UPP generation system that are downright silly... (Possible TL2 civilisation with a population of 100,000,000 on a world with trace atmosphere comes to mind...) the basic of the way the system expresses the results are simple, elegant, and sufficient to the requirements of a fun, semi-space opera RPG.

It's when this system gets pushed into roles where it is (IMHO) *not* suited that problems arise - trying to stuff every game mechanic into a U*P of some kind breaks down as complexity increases - witness the High Guard USP and Robots URP for examples.


If/when I get down to some serious world building (i.e. if I ever get around to wrinting that book that I'm sure everyone here feels they have inside of them) I'm sure not going to tie myself anything as limiting as the Traveller UPP system... I'm going to do research out the woz, run 'acrete' or something similar to build the systems and make my decisions based on what's going to enhance my story (if only by being believable) rather than what any dice have to say on the issue.

Also - however anyone may feel about GURPS - First In is a really cool read for someone looking to develop star systems.

Another historical note: the genre of "Science Fiction" was originally called "Speculative Fiction", which encompassed any piece of fiction that extrapolated on current conditions and known facts to provide an environment where ordinary characters are confronted with extra-ordinary conditions.

But as the future became more and more a realm dominated by science, scientific acheivements and the amazing products of their labs, 'Science' became more accurate and descriptive.

<rant>
With the accumulation of fuzzy thinking building up to critical mass in our society these days I'm thinking we may need to go back to 'speculative,' have our starships use the pyramid power drive and use lucky stones as defensive shields....

Seriously, in a world where people will actually BUY the notion that Jeff Goldblum can hack into the computer system of an alien species with FTL travel using a freakin' Power-Mac (Apple zealots note: If he'd used a Dell, dude, my point would still stand - CHILL) then 'science' has pretty well left the building.

</rant>

Opinions? Thanx!

There's mine - nice post thanks!

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

Not bad, you shot my first post so full of holes that it qualifies now as a presidential campaign promise! But, seriously folks...

You did bring up one point that I also find irritating. The TL2 society of 100,000,000 individuals under a thin, tainted atmosphere. How's this for a solution?

1) Take the absolute value for each of: SIZ - 8, ATM - 6, and HYD - 7.
2) Add the results together and divide by three, rounding off all fractions.
3) Subtract this final result from a 2D roll for POP.

The purpose of all this cerebration is to adjust the population downward if SIZ, ATM, and HYD deviate from an ideal Earth-like environment (867-xxx-x).

It takes more effort, but I've not had any worlds like 232-866-2, either.

 

[Merchant Reaper]

I get the impression everyone is taking this thread as an attempt to lock Traveller into a highly accurate set of rules based on hard science.

That is not what I think this is for or meant to be about. I think this for those ideas we have that are able to be based in science, and then working out as viable a way for them to be used in as scientifically accurate means as possible.

If we do this then it will also allow for solid projections of advancements across TL's. Besides, nothing put here is official, it is just an offering of how we integrate a variety of real world situations/creation/possibilities into a game that doesn't have the rules to adequately cover it.

This means it will increase how solid our games are, ie how believeable. Plus it will help build an internal consistancy that will aid a gamemaster in fleshing out various aspects of their game. It will help increase the logical consistancy of a game. I think that is essential for a sci-fi game. It needs to be believable, unlike a fantasy where pretty much anything impossible is possible.

 

[Anthony]

My main concern is dodging suspension of disbelief about human activity, which means I don't care much about 3D traveller or big ships (I care more about C-fractional rocks, since human nature being what it is, people would abuse it, and it's obvious to players, who also want to abuse it). However, the weird population demographics _are_ a serious problem for my SoD. IMO a lot of problems would be fixed if the Imperium were much younger (with a lot of the lower-tech worlds being recently incorporated), and if supposedly border sectors such as the Marches didn't have huge powerhouses such as Mora, Trin, Rhylanor, and Glisten. Piracy, for example, works a lot better if there's no worlds in the Marches with a population over 1B.

 

[theSea]

Good responses.

Thrash - well said.

My bigest concern is placing a population (however large or small) on a world tht does *not* have the tech to support it.

This works fine for the 'setting-less' envionment of LBB 1-3 Traveller - such worlds could be accouted for by the presence of aboriginal life forms. But as the OTU came into being and established a canon frequency for major and minor alien races such randomly generated worlds become more and more difficult to explain.

Obviously a big part of this problem is the blind application of the random world generation process... any kind of tweak you apply for one kind of Traveller universe is going to throw another kind (say a TU where low tech aboriginals are quite common - "Raj in space" anyone?) out of kilter.

Far better (but much more work) to build by hand using the random process as a guide.

But I would really like to see something that generates a sector full of uninhabited worlds - lets you define a start point, migration rate and preferred habitat, then runs a settlement simulation - you can specify how long the simulation is to run and out pops your inhabited sector - logically built along trade and travel routes with special attention paid to resources and communications centers.

Maybe someday someone will write one - I'm reasonably sure it is beyond my capabilities/time availablilty.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

Thrash wrote:

That gets back to my second point, about expertise: what subjects do you feel confident enough to revise, or interested enough to explore?

My real-life expertise involves an Electrical Engineering degree (Astronomy minor), a stint in the US Navy running Satcom stations, and a current civilian career supervising technicians and programmers in traffic surveillance and security.

Other than that, I sling a mean pan of corned-beef hash!

What topics could I address? Any that involve mathmatics, programming, orbital mechanics, military practices, ship-board life, communications, and security systems.

Jeepers, how would any of this apply to Traveller?

Have a day!

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

TheSea Wrote:

But I would really like to see something that generates a sector full of uninhabited worlds - lets you define a start point, migration rate and preferred habitat, then runs a settlement simulation - you can specify how long the simulation is to run and out pops your inhabited sector - logically built along trade and travel routes with special attention paid to resources and communications centers.

You want that in C++, QBasic, or with fries?

 

[Merchant Reaper]

Have you seen the new Scientific American where they discuss how parallel universes are real. This has some cool implications/ideas for any sci-fi game.

Bob

 

[theSea]

Originally posted by Keklas Rekobah:
[QBYou want that in C++, QBasic, or with fries? [/QB]

Fries please!

Nice work Mr Thrash... enjoyed the JTAS article as well.

Reaper - define 'real.'

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

I just ran a program to determine how many people could actually live on any given world.

The matrix compared SIZ to HYD, and assumed a standard atmosphere (ATM-6) throughout. POP-A was assumed for Earth about 1150 ISC. This translated into 65 people per square kilometer.

This density was applied to the SIZ/HYD matrix, and the following items became apparent:

1) The world with the least dry land (SIZ-1 / HYD-9), had POP-6. This of course could mean as many as 9,999,999 persons.

2) The world with the most dry land (SIZ-F / HYD-0), had POP-B. Okay, it's kinda ridiculous to consider 99,999,999,999,999 people living on a world with no surface water, but there it is.

3) POP-A worlds were the most prominant for SIZ-6 and above, or HYD-7 or less.

I'm still trying to figure out a SIMPLE way to take environmental factors (SIZ, ATM, HYD) into account for POP, and still allow industrial worlds to develop. Any ideas? Thanx.