How do anagathics work?

[Renaissance Man]

I've looked through the fora briefly, and while there's plenty of mention of it, I have yet to see a thread that directly addresses the question.

Does anybody have some interesting ideas/theories/principles on how anagathics work in the OTU or YTU?

 

[BlackBat242]

I know nothing about the medical aspects, but the game aspect is that it basically puts the aging process "on hold" during the time you are taking the regular treatments.

What form those treatments take (pills, injection, time in/hooked up to specialized medical equipment, etc) are left up to the referee.

Skipping the treatments allows aging to resume, but again, it is up to the referee whether treatments may be resumed immediately or if a "waiting period" is required.



Basically, anagathics work both medically and game-wise exactly how YOU say they work.

This is Traveller, not a computer game... the ref writes the details, not the publisher.

 

[Golan2072]

Aging is a complex process. In the past it was thought that it was a result of the gradual shortening of the Telomeres - DNA strands at the end of chromosomes that shorten over time - but eventually it was found that these are only part of the puzzle. The key cause of aging is accumulated damage to DNA (not just Telomeres) and the death of non-renewable cells (such as most neurons). DNA damage is, first and foremost, caused by free radicals, which are reactive by-products of cellular-level energy production (respiration); exposure to radiation and to carcinogen substances also causes damage. Cells have quite efficient DNA repair mechanisms, but these aren't perfect; damage and replication errors (mutations) accumulate over time, meaning that eventually more and more of the proteins - the structural ingredients and "machines" of our body - would be flawed.

So, essentially, an anagathic agent or treatment would have to repair DNA damage; nanotech or an augmented version of the various natural repair mechanisms come to mind. Highly efficient anti-oxidants (substances neutralizing free radicals) would also help.

For a sci-fi depiction of an anagathic treatment you could try Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy; Larry Niven's Known Space novels also include an anagathic agent, though he doesn't get as specific as Kin Stanley Robinson in regard to how it works.

 

[epicenter00]

IMTU when you begin to take Anagathics, you're introducing a kind of tailored virus to your own body. This virus doesn't make you sick - this is part of the expense of anagathics. The virus has to be able to work on the patient without rousing the immune system, yet at the same time, without damaging the immune system's ability to deal with actual threats. These "stealthy" immunosuppressants are difficult and time-consuming to synthesize and impossible in all but the most highest-tech facilities (lower tech places can make the stuff - but the failure rate is so high that it can hardly even make one dose in a month).

The anagathics "virus" (it's not really a virus and would be closer to a prion or something similar) and is "smart" and when it enters a cell, it reads the DNA and RNA of the host cell and compares it to an "ideal" template it carries then proceeds to replace everything that isn't "ideal." In essence, it repairs the DNA and RNA of the host cell even while the host cell is alive and doing things. It's easy enough to write, but to actually make such a thing possible would be immensely complex, perhaps seemingly impossible to medicine as we know it today - but in the future, breakthroughs and continual refinement of knowledge related to genetic engineering makes this possible.

However, as the anagathics virus does not reproduce in the standard fashion of virii, new doses of the stuff must be periodically introduced. Synthesis of the compounds needed to make the stuff is expensive and a delicate process. In addition, long-term anagathics useage tends to have detrimental effects upon the psychology of the user, alienating him or her from the rest of humanity, in effect producing a sociopath in the worst cases. This, and the desire to prevent a stampede of people demanding "more life" have conspired to keep the supply of anagathics artificially low and the prices artificially high.

 

[Icosahedron]

I haven't given much thought to anagathics, but it seems pretty certain from current medical knowledge that age halting will involve DNA repair in some form. Traveller implies a regimen of drugs, but an alternative with plenty of GM 'opportunities' might be a personal 'annual maintenance' stay in a very expensive private hospital on a TL12+ industrial world.
If you miss your appointment it may be that the clock simply starts ticking again, or it may be that the aging effects of the whole previous year catch up - GM to decide. Or, if the few hospitals that carry out this work are permanently booked by all the local (or not so local) millionaires, there may not be an alternative appointment until your next scheduled visit twelve months hence. Of course, you could sit on the doorstep in the hope of filling a cancellation, or maybe engineer a cancellation...

In Epicenter's 'compare and repair' model, perhaps a comparison sample frozen since youth could be used to actually rejuvinate a character rather than merely maintain the status quo?

 

[Anders]

A RL project aiming at anagathics is the SENS approach
http://www.methuselahfoundation.org/index.php?pagename=researchprojects
It gives a lot of useful ideas and terminology for in-game treatments if you look in the table of ageing damage types/proposed interventions.

Much of the in-game treatment would be plausibly drug-like, consisting of growth factors, enzymes to break down intra- and extracellular junk and crosslinking, substances that stimulate or regulate the immune system, block/activate certain genes and keep telomeres at the right length. This is the treatment taken every day. Probably injections or pills with complex nanoencapsulated contents.

There is probably a need to put in fresh stem cells in most tissues, and this likely requires a visit to a high-tech hospital or enhancement spa every few years. These cells ideally are cultured from samples taken at the first visit and kept frozen to avoid DNA damage. At the same time various kinds of gene therapy is done to tune up the immune system and mitochondria. And as a final touch, other treatments kill off or remove senescent cells, excess fat cells and incompetent immune cells. The daily drug treatment would also be updated based on the findings. These treatments are the really expensive part of the process, since they requires expertise and monitoring (you don't want to accidentally trigger a cytokine storm or have stem cells set up shop in the wrong tissue, causing tumors). Lots of injections and being hooked up to shiny high-tech machines.

The result probably feels rejuvenating, even if it has mainly removed the damage build-up and treated some of the symptoms.

 

[Golan2072]

An interesting effect of DNA-repairing anagathics would be that they could heal accumulated RADs - as radiation damage is essentially DNA damage. It would also greatly lessen the chance for cancer, as this too is a result of DNA damage (mutations in tumor-supressing genes, lessening the cell's ability to detect and repair damage, and mutations in varios genes related to cell division controls).

 

[epicenter00]

Yes - in my case, basically the problem was that I needed something that jives with Traveller's method of just popping doses of anagathics and that aging is literally just frozen and will resume if you stop taking the stuff. I've always suspected that anagathics in Traveller is some huge scam and even the Darrians haven't figured out how to manufacture it. It's actually not made but collected on this world which has a hydrographics rating of 0 in the TAS atlas, but actually is more like 5, but someone's bribing the TAS and on the world there's these big worm things that attack you if ...

In my 2300-styled game, anagathics are a lot more complex and realistic with what we know today, involving juggling a chemical stew of tailored viruses, artificial chemicals to supplement the stuff the body doesn't make anymore, cultured organs whose job it is generate new neurons and their pathways, weekly appointments with a specialist doctor to monitor the system and make adjustments, and so on. Of course, the regimen has to be constantly monitored and is astoundingly expensive ... and there's still issues like memory loss.

 

[Renaissance Man]

Much of the in-game treatment would be plausibly drug-like, consisting of growth factors, enzymes to break down intra- and extracellular junk and crosslinking, substances that stimulate or regulate the immune system, block/activate certain genes and keep telomeres at the right length. This is the treatment taken every day. Probably injections or pills with complex nanoencapsulated contents.

There is probably a need to put in fresh stem cells in most tissues, and this likely requires a visit to a high-tech hospital or enhancement spa every few years. These cells ideally are cultured from samples taken at the first visit and kept frozen to avoid DNA damage.

That sounds about right. Thanks for the help guys. As for the "ideal" template, there could be legacy areas in the body where there is an undisturbed copy of DNA - say in the testes/ovaries?

I don't know though... it seems hard to make sense of a daily treatment or dose. Wouldn't there be a way to implant a biocomputer/factory with a genetic and tissue maintenance regimen going on all the time? Essentially a kind of symbiotic custom-tailored organism that augments the body's natural gene-protection operations. That would mean not a regimen of drugs, but a one time medical procedure that is HIDEOUSLY expensive.

Of course, there is an upper limit to age suppression. After all, you still have to rebuild a person's neurons after the brain runs out of enough to build new networks. And how do you do that without changing a person's personality? Neurogenesis, particularly uncontrolled, biologically nurtured neurogenesis could totally destroy memories, habits, even reflexes and necessary functions. How do we solve THAT problem?

I know that these musings aren't OTU, but I'm looking for plausibility and speculative realism here.

 

[chshrkt]

I personally like the concept that is used in the Herris Serrano series. You go to a clinic on the nearest TL13+ planet, drop a couple lifetimes worth of credits on the counter and get rebuilt from the bottom up.

They would use a reference DNA sample from when you were born, cross reference that with any genetic treatments you had while growing up, and a 'standard' template of a typical healthy 20-something Vilani (Sylean, terran, etc...).

An Autodoc initiates a 1 to 2 week process (depending on the amount of damage or age) that rebuilds your body by injecting the above mentioned drugs and tailored viruses that snip and trim the various nasty stuff that has accumulated in your cells, using your own tissue (in the form of excess lipids) to rebuild everything that cannot be repaired (like RAD damage mentioned above).

You choose how old you want to appear when you finish the treatment, then after two weeks in a recovery/observation facility, you are free to go. The drugs are part of the Rejuv package and act like multi-vitimins, with more tailored non-replicating viruses and chemicals that keep everything in tip-top shape. Normal (or perhaps slowed, depending on GM whim) aging resumes from the point of apparent age.

Plus, I kind of like the game-unbalancing Blood Nannies from Schlock Mercenary, just for the silliness factor.

 

[Anders]

As for the "ideal" template, there could be legacy areas in the body where there is an undisturbed copy of DNA - say in the testes/ovaries?

Yes, the germline DNA is better protected than most of the rest, but I wouldn't knock the DNA of stem cells either. If one has real hightech medicine, one could sequence a couple of different cells and use voting for each base pair to get the original DNA (and while you are at it, remove stuff like retroviruses and genes with known bad effects).

I don't know though... it seems hard to make sense of a daily treatment or dose. Wouldn't there be a way to implant a biocomputer/factory with a genetic and tissue maintenance regimen going on all the time?

Avoids forgetting to take pills (patient compliance is the final frontier in medicine!) and could be adapted to individual needs. Could also be hacked in interesting ways ("Several of the senators were subject to blackmail: a trojan disguised as a software update had infiltrated their anagathic implants and were both giving them secret messages through patterned skin marks and punishing them for non-compliance through autoimmune attacks")

A compromise might be injected depots or rods that release substances on schedule. More low-tech, requires return visits to the doctor (good business!) and no hacking/hightech malfunction risk.

Of course, there is an upper limit to age suppression. After all, you still have to rebuild a person's neurons after the brain runs out of enough to build new networks. And how do you do that without changing a person's personality? Neurogenesis, particularly uncontrolled, biologically nurtured neurogenesis could totally destroy memories, habits, even reflexes and necessary functions. How do we solve THAT problem?

It might be that extremely long-lived people simply forget unused memories and traits - "Yes, I have read that I was a brash starship pilot, but that was centuries ago!" One could use various forms of neurocognitive therapies to get the brain to walk through large swathes of memory and get the new neurons to learn from this, but over time I think old stuff will tend to fade unless the brain can be extended with bionics or backup memory tapes.

So a core personality, some cherished or defining memories (and traumas) as well as generally used skills tend to remain, but the rest drifts over the years. Might produce interesting situations where old characters suspect they might have known something - or others fear that they still remember.

 

[epicenter00]

One of the precious cornerstones of the human experience is the belief that the personality doesn't change and that we don't forget things.

Both of these assertions are untrue in my experience - one everyone who reads this can readily agree with (forgetting things) and the other is pretty obvious if you think about it:

Let's say you're 40 or 50 years of age at the moment and you met a 20 year old version of yourself - or we can reverse it and say if you're 20, you meet a 40 or 50 year old version of yourself. In either case, all the names (including that of your image) had been changed as was your image's appearance. Besides jokes about bad fashions, I think it'd be very difficult to recognize this "image" as yourself. People change, even the cherished pillars of a person's world often change over the years.

While I'm diverging into a discussion of the social effects of anagathics, in many ways, I think the erosion of memory and changes in personality might be considered acceptable with anagathics, in a similar way modern society sort of indulges the whole idea of the "piss and fire of youth."

 

[Renaissance Man]

Awsome! This is so much cooler than the old pill-popping version of anagathics.

And the point about acceptable personality change is well taken, and rife with story ideas.

I still think that it is neural regeneration that pushes anagathic treatment from science to art. The better your doctor is at placing fresh strings of neurons in such a way that it preserves the existing structures, the less likely you are to destroy memories or lose the benefits of Hebbian plasticity.

Hmmm... maybe there could be neuron "banks" planted throughout the CNS that could dispatch fresh neurons as needed to sites of damage or decay. Sniff some glue? No problem, there's a rush of cannabinoids, and the nearest bank guides neurons there chemotacticly using a tailored pseudo-cell. Thus the brain is constantly renewing. Errr... I admit I'm reaching well past my Discover magazine science background here.

 

[aramis]

One of the precious cornerstones of the human experience is the belief that the personality doesn't change and that we don't forget things.

Both of these assertions are untrue in my experience - one everyone who reads this can readily agree with (forgetting things) and the other is pretty obvious if you think about it:

Let's say you're 40 or 50 years of age at the moment and you met a 20 year old version of yourself - or we can reverse it and say if you're 20, you meet a 40 or 50 year old version of yourself. In either case, all the names (including that of your image) had been changed as was your image's appearance. Besides jokes about bad fashions, I think it'd be very difficult to recognize this "image" as yourself. People change, even the cherished pillars of a person's world often change over the years.

While I'm diverging into a discussion of the social effects of anagathics, in many ways, I think the erosion of memory and changes in personality might be considered acceptable with anagathics, in a similar way modern society sort of indulges the whole idea of the "piss and fire of youth."

In general, barring trauma to the brain (physical or mental), personality has been repeatedly shown by studies over time using personality inventories to fix at between ages 12 and 15; by 15, your general personality type is essentially fixed, along with most of your likes and dislikes. You have, essentially, become you. In fact, a change in personality inventory result is usually indicative of a major trauma.

So while younger you might not realize this is older you, the two would be scarily alike to most onlookers....

If the anagathics are traumatic, they will generate a major stigma in societies where long term bonds are sought, too...

And a good bit of personality might be genetic or epigenetic. My 1st cousin by my mom's half-sister (the two of them never met, BTW; my aunt was taken away from my grandmother at age 4, and was older by a decade than my mom) tracked us down. He and I sound alike, have similar interests, several overlapping hobbies, similar mannerisms, and look more alike than many brothers (sharing 1/8 or so the genetics, since he have different maternal grandfathers...), but very few similarities in environment. (He did spend some summers within a mile, unknowingly, and is a decade older than myself.) I do see the similarities quite clearly, as does he, as does EVERYONE around us. Many assume we are brothers...

My mom shares many of the same behavioral tics, and we all share some of my grandmother's tics; my cousin was raised by my grandmother's ex-husband (his grandfather) when orphaned due to a car accident killing my aunt and her husband.

So I'm firmly in the camp that personality is strongly affected by genetics...

 

[Anders]

Personality definitely has a hefty genetic component, and the purely psychological side is likely quite self-reinforcing - nervous people find things to be nervous around, gregarious people encounter other gregarious people telling them it is great to be together, the optimist remembers all the times things turned out good, and so on. It is however not entirely fixed, people shift a bit in their "big 5" personality scales as they age (in particular agreeableness and conscientousness increase while neuroticism decrease as people mature).

I would expect really old people to have a relatively settled personality style, but a lot of the surface expressions and current values may shift. Big events and cultural changes can make a lot of difference too - across a very long life you are bound to encounter a number of life-changing events just by chance.

A good fictional example of a long life causing personality shifts is the protagonist of Bruce Sterling's Schismatrix. He goes from a being a revolutionary to theatre manager, space pirate, diplomat, officer in the academic-military complex, extortionist, invalid, prophet and explorer across his multi-century life.

I like the idea of the doctor's skill mattering for keeping you on track. Bad treatments may make your identity too fluid or lock you in, a good doctor can get nerve growth to happen in the right places and ensure sensible memory and personality continuity. ("Oh, Dr Antar is the best! He managed to keep my husband's memories of our early dating perfectly clear; we celebrated our adamantium anniversary last decade!")

It also raises the possibility of "plasticity murder": deliberately making someone's brain regenerate a lot, blurring their old identity and personality and essentially turning them into teenagers again. ("Yes, Lord Andronicus is still in charge and owns the company, but he is not quite the staid proconsul you knew; in fact, I think you will find his political opinions a bit... distasteful.")

Long marriages, that is another interesting problem. Married couples are said to become more similar to each other over time. Imagine the effects of a multi-century marriage! Of course, it might be that natural love does not last that long. But there might be ways of fixing that neurochemically, see (shameless plug) my paper on the subject. ("Dr Antar has been keeping my wife nicely affectionate for 50 years now. Of course, she doesn't know.")

 

[Renaissance Man]

Your paper is great - very interesting. I gave it a quick read over but I'll run over it again once I have some more time.

And I dig your "Dr. Antar" scenarios. :rofl: