Hivers

[BetterThanLife]

http://visionforgestudios.com/jesse/traveller/ar3stuff.htm

Considering that Hivers are round, and radially symmetrical, flying Bricks as the "typical Hiver design" surprises me. (And are not consistent with the pictures in AM 7.)

Further the concept of Hivers building big square doors, instead of doors, and hallways that are basically triangular, because Hivers are short and wide, and evolved as cave dwellers. Allowing for other races aboard might account for higher ceilings but I would think that opposite Serenity, where the walls go out, on a Hiver ship they would go in. (As would the doors.) It makes sense from a Hiver, ergonomic standpoint.

I love Jesse DeGraff's work, but in this case I think he missed the starship.

 

[atpollard]

Without any reference, I had envisioned something like a sand dollar. Perhaps the interior is based on a hex grid (more cave-like, less bi-lateral human symmetry). I imagined the rooms being larger and perhaps multi-purpose. I imagined more system redundancy perhaps three of everything (bridges, power plants, drives).

Are Hivers solitary or communal nesters? Does each Hiver “need his space” or do they prefer to “hang out together”?

Those were my first thoughts, so I just wondered what “official” data was out there. Since there are so many versions of Traveller and so much “third party” data, I thought that this was the place to seek enlightenment.

 

[Gruffty]

I had envisioned something like a sand dollar.

Err, what's one of them, then?

Perhaps the interior is based on a hex grid (more cave-like, less bi-lateral human symmetry).

...sounds familiar, eh, Mr B? ...

I imagined the rooms being larger and perhaps multi-purpose.

No reason why they couldn't be, and there is no canon description of the interior of a Hiver ship to go by (AFAIK).

I imagined more system redundancy perhaps three of everything (bridges, power plants, drives).

There's nothing in any of the books that indicates that's how the Hivers build the components into their ships, but then all that does is give people freedom to design Hiver ships as they think they should be, triple-redundancies and all.

Are Hivers solitary or communal nesters?

Communal. They live in nests of up to 500 Hivers in each, although, once again, there's nothing canon that says "Hivers never, ever live alone".

Does each Hiver “need his space” or do they prefer to “hang out together”?

Hivers work cooperatively with each other, but they also work on their own. I suspect they're very much like Humans.

Those were my first thoughts, so I just wondered what “official” data was out there.

The "hard core" of information about Hivers is actually all in CT AM7; G:T and TNE only adds small amounts of information about the Hivers, and this information complements the information in CT AM7.

Since there are so many versions of Traveller and so much “third party” data, I thought that this was the place to seek enlightenment.

And you were right, atpollard. G:T AR 3 and TNE: AotR are both based on the information in CT AM7. Large parts of both books contain verbatim copies of the text from CT AM7. TBH, G:T AR 3 and TNE AotR compement CT AM7 by adding snippets of additional imformation to that presented (and copied from) CT AM7.

One example of this is the idea of a Terminal Manipulation from TNE AotR:

Terminal Manipulation: The manipulation conducted after the failure of an unsuccessful manipulation to erase all traces of it, or at least all connections to the unsuccessful manipulator. A "coverup".

There's nothing in AotR to say that Hivers didn't do this before the TNE period of the OTU, so we can use the concept in the CT era OTU.

 

[atpollard]

Hiver ships look like Hivers because humans build ships in the shape of humans?

Yes and no.

Humans have binocular vision and hands designed to manipulate objects in front of them. As a consequence, most human created objects have a distinctive “front” – a side to be interfaced with that is more important than the other five ‘sides’. Look at a monitor, keyboard, telephone, or a door. They all have a front that is more important. The objects do not have fronts just because people have fronts, but human physiology (physical form) and psychology (how we perceive the world) encourage humans to construct objects with a front. Our objects reflect our world view. Humans are accustomed to LOOKING where they are going, so we design craft to allow us a good view of what is ahead of us. This results in the forward bridge common on human spacecraft and naturally creates a human perception of a “head”, a “body” and a “tail” in rockets, missiles, aircraft, and spacecraft.

Hivers are not like people. Their evolution has created Hivers with 360 degree vision, so Hivers will think in terms of all directions at once. Hiver made objects should reflect this. Hiver physiology (physical form) protects the Hiver by placing the brain at the center of mass protected with a skull. This protected brain is in then further protected by vital organs which are covered by a second shell. This second shell is covered by protective muscles and “expendable” soft tissue. Since Hivers are known to be primarily a defensive species which deplores hand-to-hand combat, it seems reasonable that they would think in terms of a layered defense – exactly how evolution had programmed their survival instincts. Just as humans instinctively cover their heads to protect themselves, so Hivers should think in terms of sacrificing a tentacle to preserve internal organs and sacrificing internal organs to protect the brain. When it came time for Hivers to venture into space, they should naturally seek protection and would probably use their own natural defenses (which they know a great deal about) as their model for designing a ship. That is why Hiver ships should reflect Hiver bodies.

Aslans, by contrast tend towards aggression and weaponry, so Aslan ships should accentuate offensive capabilities that harmonize with Aslan physiology (physical form) and psychology (how they perceive the world). “The best Defense is a good Offense”.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Hivers are not like people.

Hey! Hivers are people, too!

Now where did that come from?

 

[Gruffty]

From the available information in most Traveller books on Hivers, Hivers like tunnels, similiar to the tunnels they co-habit with their Snohls. Snohl's are cylindrical, thus tube (round) corridors would predominate on ships built on for Hiver use. Rooms would be chambers off the "corridors".

 

[atpollard]

From the available information in most Traveller books on Hivers, Hivers like tunnels, similar to the tunnels they co-habit with their Snohls. Snohl's are cylindrical, thus tube (round) corridors would predominate on ships built on for Hiver use. Rooms would be chambers off the "corridors".

The only reference to snohls I found in AM 7, was the evolution of proto-hivers and snohls. Once Hivers evolve into an intelligent communal species, I find no further reference to a Hiver-snohl symbiotic relationship.

The idea sounds interesting, but is there data elsewhere to conform this relationship still exists.

 

[Gruffty]

You're right, there no *actual* reference to Hivers co-habiting with Snohls once their society had developed into the "nest" culture. However, one thing that is repeated across CT, TNE and GT in relation to the Hiver/Snohl relationship is the phrase "Hivers just feel better with Snohl around". This seems to imply that Hiver still have a valid relationship with the Snohl; but, as you say, it's not explicitly stated anywhere.

Personally I can't see the Hivers crow-barring a Snohl into a ship just so they can feel comfortable on the journey............

 

[Gruffty]

It makes as much sense as trying to get an Ursa onto the Bridge of a Free Trader or a Type-S. Or a Virushi onto any of the standard starships.

Agreed

However, my Hiver instincts tell me that, below the part of a Hiver nest building you can see above ground, there are tunnels, within which Snohl and Hiver continue their millenia long relationship, out of sight of younger, less civilised societies/species....

Fungi, anyone?.......

 

[atpollard]

However, one thing that is repeated across CT, TNE and GT in relation to the Hiver/Snohl relationship is the phrase "Hivers just feel better with Snohl around".

That's good enough for me.

I recall that the Hivers settled on multiple worlds, so they probably found a way to transport them. Humans bred dogs from wolf size to Chihuahua and horses from wolf sized up to Clydesdales. Hivers could have “miniature” snohl as shipboard pets.

Snohl would definitely affect ship design. How do you build a ship so giant worms can tunnel corridors to feed?

 

[elbmc1969]

Hivers are not like people. Their evolution has created Hivers with 360 degree vision, so Hivers will think in terms of all directions at once. Hiver made objects should reflect this.

Interesting idea. Hivers do have a "front," though. It's where the sensory "hand" is. Now, when a Hiver wants to inspect something closely, it's going to move its eyes near the object, just as we do. This is easier to do if the object is on the same side of the body as the sensory "hand."

Neural limitations are likely to affect how Hiver vision determines "front-ness." Human have a very limited angle in which they have detailed vision. The rest of the visual field is low-resolution, mostly sensitive to movement. I strongly suspect that Hivers would have similar neural limitations. They may be able to see in all directions, but their ability to see detail is certainly far more limited (perhaps only one "eye" has detail vision; perhaps all of the eyes have a small detail field but the brain can only select one at a time to pay attention to...).

On snohl, ship forms, etc.:

"Today, fungus remains the staple of the Hiver diet; fungus growing is a highly developed art. Most buildings retain the beehive shape and large underground tunnel complexes of the original burrowers, but they are constructed by machines; the burrowers (known as snohl) are now reduced to the secondary function of keeping the tunnels clean. Hiver attachment to them is essentially nonrational; they just feel more comfortable with snohl around." (from http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Hiver)

 

[atpollard]

Interesting idea. Hivers do have a "front," though. It's where the sensory "hand" is. Now, when a Hiver wants to inspect something closely, it's going to move its eyes near the object, just as we do. This is easier to do if the object is on the same side of the body as the sensory "hand."

Good thoughts and observations.

With respect to the above statement, humans use their front mounted hands to hold/stabilize an object in front of them while performing a close examination. The easiest way for a Hiver to perform the same act would be to hold an object with its rear ‘hand’ (perhaps resting the object on its back) and rotate its ‘head’ around to look at it. That would make the Hiver ‘front’ equal to a human ‘back’.

On the other hand even Hivers must look in the direction that they are moving (or walk into a lot of walls), so YES Hivers have a front, it is just not nearly as important as a human ‘front’. In terms of psychological importance, I imagine that Hivers have no equivalent to the human concept of ‘the back’ (as in “who cares what that side looks like, it is only the back and no one will see it.”) but rather view every direction as the human equivalent of ‘the side’ with the direction that the primary stalk faces at the moment as “the front”. Thus while the Human concept of ‘front’ is a fixed direction, the Hiver concept of ‘front’ is a variable direction.

What does this mean in practical terms?
I would propose that a Hiver ship is designed to fly in any direction with equal ease. If the cargo to be unloaded is in the ‘forward hold’ then the Hiver ship will dock to the station with the ‘forward hold’ as the front of the ship. If the cargo to be unloaded is in the ‘aft hold’ then the Hiver ship will dock to the station with the ‘aft hold’ as the front of the ship.
Human furniture is typically designed to be placed against a wall and accessed from the side facing away from the wall. Hiver furniture would probably be designed to be ‘used’ from multiple sides with each ‘side’ performing a different function and the entire piece of furniture designed as an object of art (similar but not identical to the Japanese concept of utilitarian objects being beautiful at the same time). An object that is a desk from one side but a chest of drawers from the opposite side and a bed from the top would seem bizarre to a Human but make perfect sense to a Hiver – he can wake up in bed, twist his primary stalk to check for messages while selecting his clothes with another stalk. [EDIT: I assume that Hivers wear clothes.]

 

[Gruffty]

Hiver furniture would probably be designed to be ‘used’ from multiple sides with each ‘side’ performing a different function and the entire piece of furniture designed as an object of art (similar but not identical to the Japanese concept of utilitarian objects being beautiful at the same time).

Exactly as I imagine Hiver furniture would be. Although there are some illustrations of Hiver furniture in the various/relevant books. They're weird looking stools, similiar to a toadstool.

I assume that Hivers wear clothes.

Nope, not in the same manner as other races. They wear utility belts/webbing with pouches for various bits of useful technology (such as the infamous TL-15 Hiver mop ), vacc suits in space, combat envirnment suits when needed. A Hiver respirator or compressor mask is actually a hard bubble that encloses the head and is connected to the air tank(s)/compressor unit <Can't remember which book that is from - TNE? G:T?>

As for the "front" of a Hiver: Hiver eyestalks can swivel in nearly any direction and its brain can process these images with equal speed and precision. IMTU, Hivers have no problems with up/down/left/right in space/Zero-G because of this and I think this is a reasonable assumption for the OTU. A Hiver can look behind itself whilst walking forward or sideways. Remember that the "rear" limb stalk is primarily used for Shaking Hands so avoid that bit of a Hiver, if at all possible .

 

[atpollard]

Remember that the "rear" limb stalk is primarily used for Shaking Hands so avoid that bit of a Hiver, if at all possible .

Humans have two hands free to manipulate object with while standing. How does a Hiver hold something and look at it? His prime stalk needs to do the looking, so it cannot hold a 1 meter sphere while looking at it. His rear hand is for "shaking hands". That just leaves the four "legs" he is standing on. Do they lay down to pick things up or balance on three 'legs' (leaving only 1 limb for holding an object unless he uses the rear 'hand').

Of course, this has nothing to do with the topic except a general curisity about Hivers.

 

[Gruffty]

Hivers do use their rear limb to help them stand; there are a couple of canon B&W illos that show this. IMO, as long as they can make a tripod somehow, a Hiver can safely lift two "legs" off the ground and look at something it is holding. Of course, if the Hiver was being really silly, it might decide to do a tentacle stand and stand on one limb only <cue Mr Boulton's canon picture of a Hiver doing a tentacle stand >

 

[Andrew Boulton]

 

[Gruffty]

And then, as if by magic, Mr Boulton appeared....

<drrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-rrrrrrrr-rrrrrrrrrrrr-rrrrrrrrr-*TISH!*>

Eyethangewe, eyethangewe! Don't clap, just throw money! :file_21:

 

[Gruffty]

Hiver behaviour

Could one of the Mods split off the posts about the actual Hivers (as opposed to Hiver ships) into a separate thread, please?

 

[aramis]

Could one of the Mods split off the posts about the actual Hivers (as opposed to Hiver ships) into a separate thread, please?

As you requested!

 

[Gruffty]

Bah! We Hivers are not a Minor Race, thank you very much! The CT board would have been more appropriate...