High Guarding again

Ulsyus · 2025-11-26T04:57:51-0600

I've been playing around with creating a Python routine to see just how effective ships in High Guard actually are. I thought I'd try with some ostensibly equitable vessels, a Chrysanthemum and a Fer de Lance, and was in for a bit of a surprise. I've modified the original routine to run 100 battles and give me some stats on who wins and loses, with some colour, and unfortunately for the old Chrysanthemum it doesn't fare too well against a peer vessel. I'm going to try a few of them against the Midu Agashaam once I've got the 1000-battles routine squared away, but below is a common outcome for 100 encounters of the Chrys and the FdL:

Hi CG, that works well! I ran it five times again, here’s the last lot of results. I must say that if I was a government purchasing ships I’d be far more inclined to buy the FdL than the Chrys!

=== Multi-battle summary ===
Trials: 100

By outcome mode (overall):
Kill : 3 ( 3.0%)
Cripple : 51 ( 51.0%)
Withdraw: 32 ( 32.0%)
Draw : 14 ( 14.0%)

Average rounds by mode:
Kill : 8.33 rounds (based on 3 battles)
Cripple : 5.18 rounds (based on 51 battles)
Withdraw: 6.50 rounds (based on 32 battles)
Draw : 11.00 rounds (based on 14 battles)

By side and mode:
Chrysanthemum:
Kill : 3 ( 3.0%)
Cripple : 3 ( 3.0%)
Withdraw: 0 ( 0.0%)
Draw : 0 ( 0.0%)

Fer-de-lance:
Kill : 0 ( 0.0%)
Cripple : 48 ( 48.0%)
Withdraw: 0 ( 0.0%)
Draw : 0 ( 0.0%)

Draw:
Kill : 0 ( 0.0%)
Cripple : 0 ( 0.0%)
Withdraw: 32 ( 32.0%)
Draw : 14 ( 14.0%)

Average rounds by side and mode (where applicable):
Chrysanthemum:
Kill : 8.33 rounds (n=3)
Cripple : 8.00 rounds (n=3)
Withdraw: n/a (n=0)
Draw : n/a (n=0)

Fer-de-lance:
Kill : n/a (n=0)
Cripple : 5.00 rounds (n=48)
Withdraw: n/a (n=0)
Draw : n/a (n=0)

Draw:
Kill : n/a (n=0)
Cripple : n/a (n=0)
Withdraw: 6.50 rounds (n=32)
Draw : 11.00 rounds (n=14)

One vessel withdraws if it has lost it's weapons but still has M and J, or just M, motive power. So the FdL can cripple the Chrys in about half of all fights, but just can't finish it off without being badly damaged itself and needing to withdraw. I'll post more results here as I get them, but it's slow going due to too many commitments ATM.

Spinward Flow · 2025-11-26T08:42:37-0600

WAY BACK in the 80s ... a friend of mine who was the Referee for basically ALL of my Traveller adventuring in CT took a look at the the Chrysanthemum and Fer-de-lance designs and realized that they were both FLAWED in their design concept and execution.

Since both classes were styled Destroyer Escorts (Type-DE), my Referee friend came up with starship class designs intentionally meant to go up against these DEs and win. He called these redesigns Escort Destroyers (Type-ED) ... and since the DEs were Imperial class designs, he decided that the ED counters to them should be Zhodani class designs (go figure, eh?

).

Unfortunately, the details for these competitor designs was never shared with me, so I have no idea what they entailed ... but they were quite deliberately designed to exploit the "weaknesses/inefficiencies" of the Chrysanthemum and Fer-de-lance designs as depicted in LBB S9.

Oh and multiple details recorded on the Travellerwiki pages for these two starships are WRONG as per LBB S9.

For one thing, both classes have model/9fib computers according to LBB S9, p14-15 ... not model/6fib computers.
That 9 vs 6 difference in computer model number makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD when dealing with "near peer" adversaries once the shooting starts (under LBB5.80 combat rules).

For another, there is no such thing as "undertonnage for +2 agility" in CT.
Likewise, there is no "higher efficiency jump fuel consumption" in CT allowing 90% of standard jump fuel consumption to be allowed. A 1000 ton starship consumes 100 tons of fuel per parsec jumped ... not 90 tons per parsec.
These details are "allowed" in Traveller5, but not in CT.

For some reason, the CT "versions" of these starship classes are not available on Travellerwiki ...

McPerth · 2025-11-26T17:09:22-0600

Ulsyus said:
By outcome mode (overall):
Kill : 3 ( 3.0%)
Cripple : 51 ( 51.0%)
Withdraw: 32 ( 32.0%)
Draw : 14 ( 14.0%)

Well, those results don't surprise me...

That's why I always have defended HG (and MT) results would mean the winner of an engagement will gain more than the battle, as he can capture many crippled, but easily repairable, hulls, and so increase its fleet.

That is one of my main criticisms of MT timeline, as Fleet losses told there are unbelievable with HG/MT rules...

(see this very old post about the issue)

kilemall · 2025-11-26T18:12:42-0600

McPerth said:
Well, those results don't surprise me...

That's why I always have defended HG (and MT) results would mean the winner of an engagement will gain more than the battle, as he can capture many crippled, but easily repairable, hulls, and so increase its fleet.

That is one of my main criticisms of MT timeline, as Fleet losses told there are unbelievable with HG/MT rules...

(see this very old post about the issue)

Historically a big deal to capture chariots, sailing ships and tanks.

AnotherDilbert · 2025-11-27T05:46:29-0600

Ulsyus said:
I've been playing around with creating a Python routine to see just how effective ships in High Guard actually are. I thought I'd try with some ostensibly equitable vessels, a Chrysanthemum and a Fer de Lance, and was in for a bit of a surprise. I've modified the original routine to run 100 battles and give me some stats on who wins and loses, with some colour, and unfortunately for the old Chrysanthemum it doesn't fare too well against a peer vessel. I'm going to try a few of them against the Midu Agashaam once I've got the 1000-battles routine squared away, but below is a common outcome for 100 encounters of the Chrys and the FdL:

Great initiative!

But the Chrysantemum and Fer-de-Lance classes are scrap iron totally unsuited to the HG combat system.

In HG, with reasonable ships (with even token amounts of armour), combat is an attritional slogfest to scrape weapons and fuel from the enemy, unless spinals come out to play. Essentially, small warships should lead to 0% kills and 100% withdrawals, and then all the ships go for repairs at a shipyard... Forcing the enemy to withdraw is the only winning.

With large ships and spinals things are much faster and bloodier. Even then ships are generally disabled by e.g. Fuel Tanks Shattered, Bridge Destroyed, or Power Plant Destroyed, rarely destroyed outright. If the combatant is a ship that is fatal, if it is a rider it is just picked up by the tender and can be repaired... Again forcing the enemy to withdraw is winning.

Causing damage faster than the enemy can repair it, either in the battle or between the battles at a shipyard, is how you win a naval campaign in HG.

Try something like this at TL-15 (J-4, 6G, Armour 15, missile bay, damper):

Code:

FM-A146C92-F80900-45009-0      MCr 1 736       1 900 Dton
bearing     1     11  1                           Crew=36
batteries   1     11  1                             TL=15
                       Cargo=12 Fuel=988 EP=228 Agility=6

Spoiler:

Code:

Dual Occupancy                                       12     2 170
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             A          1 900         
Configuration       Needle/Wedge       1                      228
Scoops              Streamlined                                 2
Armour              15                 F            304       547
                                                                
Jump Drive                             4    1        95       380
Manoeuvre D         Z                  6    1        47        96
Power Plant                           12    1       228       684
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4       988         
Purifier                                    1        15         0
                                                                
Bridge                                      1        38        10
Computer            m/9                9    1        13       140
                                                                
Staterooms                                  4        16         2
Staterooms, Half                           32        64         8
                                                                
Cargo                                                12         
                                                                
Bay                 Missile, 50 t      9    1        50        13
Triple Turret       Beam               4    1         1         3
Single Turret       Fusion             5    1         2         2
Triple Turret 7/bat Sand               8    1         7         5    7 mounts organised into 1 battery.
                                                                
Nuclear Damper                         9    1        20        50
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 2 169,50         Sum:        12     2 170
Class Cost          MCr   455,60        Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 1 735,60                                 
                                                                
                                                                
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    11
Passengers            Mid     0          36       Engineers     4
                      Low     0                     Gunners    14
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     7
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0

Neither a few Chrysantemums, Fer-de-Lances, nor a Midu Agashaam should be able the cause any significant damage to it...

Enoki · 2025-11-27T10:35:40-0600

If I recall, back in the day, I did some designs with HG and found that the most effective battleship was an "all or nothing" design. That is, you max out the armor, shields, etc. You put the biggest honking railgun / spinal mount you can shove into it while making it mobile but not overly so. What happens is the rules are set where anything other than a spinal mount of close to the largest size does nothing to the ship in terms of damage. The ship obliterates the designs that follow ones like the samples given.

The idea here is that the sample designs waste lots of effort on smaller batteries and speeding around. The "all or nothing design" is like the STOS 'death carrot.' Since only the spinal mounts really matter, why mount anything else on a 'ship-of-the-line?' Make it invulnerable to anything else in return. You can make a variety of sizes of 'death carrots' to fill out your fleet.

The "Death Carrot," a spinal mount in an "All-or-nothing" configuration.

Spinward Flow · 2025-11-27T13:00:17-0600

AnotherDilbert said:
Try something like this at TL-15 (J-4, 6G, Armour 15, missile bay, damper):

That's ... rather impressive, actually.

By organizing the design around a Missile Bay (EP=0), you reduce the tonnage fraction required by power plant, fuel and staterooms for all the engineers that would be needed for an EP=1+ "main" battery.

The 1900 ton form factor stays within Hull Code: A, which retains a -1 DM size modifier on Hit rolls.

The beam laser and fusion gun turrets are "token" batteries which can be used to soak up weapon hits that aren't mitigated by the Armor-F. The sandcaster battery along with the nuclear dampener combine to provide pretty strong/reliable protection against "stray hits" from incoming fire which could potentially threaten the ship.

Almost 2x the tonnage (and cost and crew) of the Crysanthemum/Fer-de-Lance classes, but definitely FAR more capable/survivable than either option. Even if the contest is 2 vs 1 (to balance the tonnage, crew and cost factors), I would still expect the missile bay+dampener design to "win" any engagements vs 1000 ton DEs.

AnotherDilbert · 2025-11-27T16:26:16-0600

Spinward Flow said:
The 1900 ton form factor stays within Hull Code: A, which retains a -1 DM size modifier on Hit rolls.

Fairly conventional slot in HG. Very survivable to missile fire, very vulnerable to large spinal PAs.

Only possible due to the tiny M-drive Z from LBB2, otherwise the drives, fuel, and bridge would consume well over 90% of the ship, leaving little room for fighting capability.

Both good armour and agility is only possible at TL-15, at lower TLs you have to choose one of them, unless making it a rider.

Spinward Flow · 2025-11-27T20:04:15-0600

AnotherDilbert said:
Only possible due to the tiny M-drive Z from LBB2

Hax.

AnotherDilbert said:
otherwise the drives, fuel, and bridge would consume well over 90% of the ship

LBB5.80 Jump-4 = 5%
LBB5.80 Maneuver-6 = 17%
LBB5.80 Power Plant-12 = 12% @ TL=15
Armor-F = 16% @ TL=15
Bridge = 2%
Fuel = 52%

5+17+12+16+2+52 = 104%

Verdict: Would not allow in any game I'm playing in.

AnotherDilbert said:
leaving little room for fighting capability.

You don't say ...?

AnotherDilbert · 2025-11-27T21:25:50-0600

Spinward Flow said:
Hax.

It's RAW... You do as you wish.

Spinward Flow said:
LBB5.80 Jump-4 = 5%
LBB5.80 Maneuver-6 = 17%
LBB5.80 Power Plant-12 = 12% @ TL=15
Armor-F = 16% @ TL=15
Bridge = 2%
Fuel = 52%

5+17+12+16+2+52 = 104%

The larger PP required for the screen, computer, and token weapons isn't a percentage, but a fixed tonnage: Damper = 20 Dt + 90 Dt PP + 90 Dt fuel + 10 Dt crew = 210 Dt, regardless of the size of the ship. Trivial cost for a large ship, very expensive for a small ship. See JTAS#15, p31, "TCS Squadron Design II".

The basic chassis without weapons or screens, hence PP-6, is about 95%
16% Armour
_5% J drive
17% M drive
_6% P plant
46% Fuel
_2% Bridge
_3% Crew, dual, roughly (small warship)
_1% Purif, etc, roughly.
=======
96% total, roughly

4% left to cram in weapons and screens? Doesn't really work, hence J-4, 6G warships doesn't work, hence riders...

Example: 71 Dt free ≈ 3.7% without weapons and screens.

Code:

FM-A146692-F00000-00000-0      MCr 1 454       1 900 Dton
bearing                                           Crew=24
batteries                                           TL=15
                       Cargo=71 Fuel=874 EP=114 Agility=5

Spoiler:

A LBB2 M-drive makes a size A ship possible, at least at TL-15, with 350 (~18.5%) Dt free for weapons and screens and their crew and power:

Code:

FM-A146692-F00000-00000-0      MCr 1 401       1 900 Dton
bearing                                           Crew=21
batteries                                           TL=15
                      Cargo=353 Fuel=874 EP=114 Agility=5

Spoiler:

A LBB2 power plant would save even more space, but sadly they don't go over PP-6, so unattractive for a HG warship.

Grav_Moped · 2025-11-27T21:26:30-0600

Spinward Flow said:
Hax.

So? Legit under HG '80 using LBB2 fuel allocations.
You can't get Agillity-6 though.
If you can live without that (AD posted while I was typing) the rest is fine.
Build it around a missile bay and have fun.

AnotherDilbert · 2025-11-27T21:45:18-0600

Grav_Moped said:
So? Legit under HG '80 using LBB2 fuel allocations.
You can't get Agillity-6 though.
If you can live without that (AD posted while I was typing) the rest is fine.
Build it around a missile bay and have fun.

Before errata nerfed Emergency Agility, a missile ship could easily get, and routinely operate with, EmeAgility-6 with a LBB2 PP:

Code:

FM-A146692-F70900-45209-0      MCr 1 223       1 900 Dton
bearing     1     111 1                           Crew=37
batteries   1     111 1                             TL=15
              Cargo=310 Fuel=820 EP=114 Agility=0 EmeAg-6

Spoiler:

Code:

Dual Occupancy                                      311     1 528
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             A          1 900        
Configuration       Needle/Wedge       1                      228
Scoops              Streamlined                                 2
Armour              15                 F            304       547
                                                               
Jump Drive          Y                  4    1       120       230
Manoeuvre D         Z                  6    1        47        96
Power Plant         Z                  6    1        73       192
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4       820        
Purifier                                    1        12         0
                                                               
Bridge                                      1        38        10
Computer            m/9                9    1        13       140
                                                               
Staterooms                                  4        16         2
Staterooms, Half                           33        66         8
                                                               
Cargo                                               311        
                                                               
Bay                 Missile, 50 t      9    1        50        13
Single Turret       Particle           2    1         3         3
Triple Turret       Beam               4    1         1         3
Single Turret       Fusion             5    1         2         2
Triple Turret 4/bat Sand               7    1         4         3    4 mounts organised into 1 battery.
                                                               
Nuclear Damper                         9    1        20        50
                                                               
Nominal Cost        MCr 1 528,47         Sum:       311     1 528
Class Cost          MCr   320,98        Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 1 222,78                                
                                                               
                                                               
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    11
Passengers            Mid     0          37       Engineers     3
                      Low     0                     Gunners    16
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     7

Much cheaper and lots of space left...

High Guarding again

Ulsyus

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Spinward Flow

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McPerth

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kilemall

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AnotherDilbert

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Enoki

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Spinward Flow

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AnotherDilbert

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Spinward Flow

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AnotherDilbert

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Grav_Moped

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AnotherDilbert

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