This sight has a couple designs that meets the general concept you guys are talking about:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dsyards/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dsyards/
Perhaps you could convince Mr. Jackson to print some more of this very difficult to obtain supplement? I've been trying for weeks culminating in Marc M. selling me one on eBay then misplacing it. So quoting what is nearly impossible to get access to is merely frustrating... <sigh>Originally posted by thrash:
For what it's worth, I did a detailed analysis of conventional vs. LASH vs. farport operations under GURPS rules for GT: Far Trader.
And in fairness, you have to not only include operating costs, but annual maintenance costs and the costs of the facilities to provide such maintenance.The question boils down to time versus money: can you save enough time (i.e., make enough additional trips per year) to pay for the extra infrastructure you'd need -- smallcraft drives and crews for LASH, space stations for farports -- to make an unconventional scheme work?
Which will all be GURPS-y. I'm looking for MT/HG2 compatible designs. And ones I can actually access! (unlike GT:FT)It turned out that LASH was competitive with conventional operations: sometimes better, sometimes worse, depending primarily on the specifics of the system and the volume of trade. There is a discussion in Far Trader of how LASH operations work, and designs for a 10,000-dton LASH freighter and lighters.
We have this thing we call an orbit....Farports, however, -- though they had some very vocal fans -- could never be made to pay for themselves. In order to save enough time to make them worthwhile, you had to have so many (around a dozen, if I recall correctly) that they cost too much; most farports would be idle part of the time as orbital relationships change, or would need expensive (because of their size) maneuver drives for station-keeping.
Hmmm. I can see arguments for and against such an assumption.Remember also that most traffic in most systems is transient: it arrives at one point on the 100D sphere, and departs a different way pretty much at random (in the general case).
That depends I guess on your costs. You have the ship's time from arrival to departure including inbound transit, outbound transit, offloading, and onloading. In that time, you pay all fees for dockage, all fuel and salary and life support expenses. In the farport case, you spend less time in system. Whether this makes it economical depends a lot on how much those expenses are really costing you.If you have to cross the intervening space anyway, a single, centrally located highport near the mainworld is a better investment.
I imagine that trade between high pop worlds may well fill this kind of a model. JIT delivery just isn't a factor in OTU commerce between stars (it can't be, given the 2+ week delay in orders being serviced). So things will tend to run on schedules (plus there are Vilani involved). And much trade will be of a predictable nature with much bulk transport, especially between worlds with key and related needs/capacities to produce.Farports make sense where you have only a few major trading partners, and you can predict that most of your interstellar traffic will be on shuttle runs, returning to its point of origin.
The point you make is fairly taken - a lot depends on your assumptions, your version of the ship construction rules, your costs for fuel and berthage, your amount of fuel burned, your salary schedule, etc. etc. etc.Other rules sets with different assumptions and cost factors (using reaction thrusters, say, or without GT's jump masking) may result in different conclusions, of course.
That makes a few underlying assumptions in and of itself.Originally posted by thrash:
To clarify: There are two options. (1) You can allow your farports to orbit, and they will periodically go out of position to serve any likely entry/exit vectors -- how often and for how long, we can't know (see below).
Hmmm. We don't know that passages between two particular places don't generate a common arrival locus that is in fact a restricted area of space. I will concede that we don't know this either, so you are correct in that we don't have any reason to assume the situation is *better* than random, but it may be so.... or it may be so in some TUs.No doubt. The problem is that there isn't any better assumption available, given that we don't know how three-dimensional star systems relate to one another across the two-dimensional star map. With an average of 30 worlds within Jump-4 even on the flat map, random orientation is as good as it gets in the general case.
I wasn't, but if I was to object to this, I'd have had to ask you to define transient as you mean it (to me, it means coming and going, which all ships would inherently be).Or were you objecting to the idea that most traffic is transient? That falls out when you realize that high population worlds trade largely with each other, that they are separated by multiple jumps (on average, 2-3), and that all other trade is carried on peripheral to this traffic (at least to first order).
I think not. (I'm open to the possibility I'm wrong, but....)Nope: if ships arrive and depart from different, randomly selected points on a sphere,
the most efficient place to put a port is in the center of the sphere -- shortest average travel time to/from all points. Since the center of the sphere is either the mainworld itself (for stars larger than ~G5V) or its primary, a highport in orbit around the mainworld is as centrally located as a port can be and still be above the atmosphere.
It's only when arrival and departure points are somewhat correlated that off-center ports become more efficient.
No, but I've bookmarked it! It should be HTML'd and put somewhere 'entire'. Nice, though it still doesn't factor in population clustering - that is to say that part of apparent habitability will be dependent on the relationship between worlds nearby and the world being created. Also, populations may be affected by the ease of availability of nearby support/markets/etc.Have you seen my proposed alternate for Book 3 world generation?
OT, but I couldn't resist:Originally posted by thrash:
Interestingly, I get 5 million dtons per fleet as an average, with a range of 2-12 million dtons. This neglects escorts and small auxiliaries (which appear to total less than 10% of combined capital ship displacement), but does include tanker and assault squadrons (per Fifth Frontier War). I've always inferred that MT's "1,000 ships per fleet" includes all jump-capable vessels, however.
1. I was not aware of any canon (pardon me if I don't count GT here) that indicated departure was from a specific point outside of 100D. That is to say, in my model, anyplace you can get outside of 100D, you can jump from. If this is not so, I'd love a citation. If you are only assuming that is the case, then I question that assumption. I always assumed (since you don't calculate your jump until the last minute) that you could jump from any place. If the departure point is not restricted in locus, this restriction goes away. If it *is* restricted in locus, then you have a point. But where does this become explicitly stated?Originally posted by thrash:
Sure: you're not taking the departure into account.
There's nothing to guarantee that the point from which you need to depart for your next destination isn't a quarter of the sphere away from that nearest station -- at least half the time, it will be. You'd then have to travel a distance at least equal to the sphere's radius to clear it, plus the chord you originally travelled inbound. Your time savings over simply driving to the center and out again have just become considerably more marginal. Now throw in the fact that you may sometimes have to clear the primary's jump limit as well (much more frequently if you assume jump masking, but it occurs even if you don't) and there's too little advantage left to pay the rent.
Or a program.True enough -- but it was designed to be as simple to use as Book 3: roll some dice, write down the results, and move on to the next system. What you're describing would require multiple passes and probably a spreadsheet.
Presuming no massive dislocations or reductions in population or other phenomena which make population settling fall outside that model, yes.If you assume that the populations in the Imperium have reached saturation -- and they should, after between one and ten millenia -- then distribution will mostly follow affinity (MSPR+RAM, in my model) anyway, with some variation at the low end for stations on trade routes and such. The full article goes into this in more detail.
I'll never know what he said, because for some reason I find myself hammering my head against the screen, ripping out my eyeballs, and screaming "la la la I'm not listening!"I wrote to Mr. Miller for his ruling, and this was his response:
Well, my lighters certainly weren't jump capable!Originally posted by Jered Farstrider:
Ok, let me just say that I love this whole idea. Every bit of it makes perfect sense. Except for one thing: Jump-capable cargo containers?
Nope.It doesn't make any sense to put the fuel/jump drive on the cargo containers. These are standardized, used everywhere in the Imperium, whether it be behind a truck or a spacefaring tractor, right? If you're hauling a container around on a truck, does it make sense to fill up 20% of it with jump equipment? That you'll never use when it's on the ground?
LASH ops use lighters loaded with standardized tractor-flatbed compatible containers. In the TU I'm conjecturally thinking about, this means the lighters 25 tons of cargo space (30 dTon lighter) is likely packed with 3 8 dTon tractor-trailer containers.Do modern-day tractor-trailers put the engine in the tractor or the trailer? The tractor. Why? Because that way you get the most efficiency out of the container. If the container is used for more than just spacefaring transport, then it makes no sense to put anything other than cargo in it.
Plus some pretty fancy methods of securing the containers and cargo, which might include features built into the containers themselves.I would suggest that this sort of setup would involve several standardized sizes of containers, and like someone mentioned earlier they're all stackable. Furthermore, some have special equipment for hauling certain cargo, such as refrigerated, radioactive, living, or any other strange cargo you'd roll up.
Obviously the inspiration came from somewhere!This setup is remarkably like todays shipping industry, where there are several different sizes of container, along with different types such as refrigerated and such, but they all fit together.
Or more correctly, there are a variety of ships of this type of different sizes, the larger being more efficient (the difference between a train and a tractor trailer - train has efficiency, but doesn't operate everywhere... the tractor goes into out of the way places....).Transporting these containers falls to large 'semi-tractor' ships, equipped with powerful jump drives and lots of fuel. And that's about it, they're made to haul LOTS of cargo.
Yep.Allowing for different models of tractor, the largest hauler would be able to do J-1 with 6 containers, J-2 with less. Smaller tractors would obviously haul less, and would most likely be seen around less populated regions.
That's kind of like my thoughts on how drop tanks need to be rationalized to work for MTU.Originally posted by Hecateus:
Thought:
Fairings around lighters and pods protect them from various space hazards. The Fairings are retracted or otherwise moved when the pods etc are needed.
That could be handwaved away by building a ship that's just a big hangar with a jump drive, as if it were a Tender of some sort.Originally posted by kaladorn:
It occurs to me that you would have to (if you believe SOM) have a lanthanum grid in each of the pods or lighters hulls. [...]
Thoughts?