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Heavy Haulers-Big Rigs of Space

Abbodon

SOC-1
I may catch the ire of some of the hardcore Traveller fans concerning crew requirements and related rules but I have something I would care to share that seemed to work just fine in the Traveller sessions I ran back in college. Before I date myself too much let me just say most of my experience has been with Classic Traveller, Mark Miller's first set of books so take all that follows in accordance to that. To better facilitate getting PCs around in my universe I created something I called the Slave Pylon System with was a structural modification made on a starship between say 100 to 400 tons that allowed the vessel to be become a semi tractor to a larger trailer hull. In essence the 'trailer' was a self-contained starship without the amenities for full time crew and was specificaly constructed with M/J drives, fuel tankage and powerplant to support it's operation of say a J-3 range. The drives were also overrated to compensate for the 100-400 ton 'tractor' vessel and not hinder performance. I supplimented the additional engineers needed for said 'tractor' with robots (Please no one say Astro-Mechs) of the variety seen in the film Silent Running to act in maintenance and operational duties. Of course this made a new crew position availible of robotics system engineer with all assumed background skills as one may envision. Perhaps the inspiration was from the original Alien film with only two engineers on such a massive vessel, that and the tractor-trailer principle was present there as well. This of course also supported the establishment of dedicated spacelanes of commerce and vast orbital 'truck stops' where cargo was transfered and said big rigs were refueled and the crews allowed a brief liberty off ship if for nothing more than sitting in a diner and catching up on local news or buying fresh groceries for their vessel's galley. To most people that may deglamorized the travel between stars a bit but I like the sort of gritty, cigarette smoke feel it brought to my game. Not to mention the various enroute adventures possible such as the killer kudzu that contaminated an agricultural shipment or the runaway rig that was bound to enter a heavily trafficed trade route......All in all, it did bring a lot of options to both myself and the players and made them a little less dependent on basing all their plans around adventures restricted by their own vessels limited jump range.
 
Well if you manage to catch ire for sharing something with us that gives us a different take on what's out there, then something's wrong with the universe. I don't think anyone would holler about what you've posted here. It can certainly be hard to visualize how things will look in the future. Who, 50 years ago, would have thought that the world would look much the same as it did then? Certainly not Popular Science, or any movie depicting the now. Everything seems pretty boring here, but back then, it looked like it was going to be impressive.

The deep future is no different. To the residents, it will be boring and stable, just the way they like it. With only a few exceptions, we would probably fit right in in the Traveller Universe, once we got used to some of the nifty toys. That, I think, is the main draw of the game's setting. No ridiculous cyberpunk crap, no oppressive corporations or government regimes, no robots taking our places, doing all our work for us, and leaving us fat and on permanent vacation. it's a lot like today, with a few new toys. (Ok, so this is not entirely true, but it's present only insomuch as the GM wants it present, and PCs can generally move somewhere where these things are uncommon.)
 
The Nostromo was 63,000 metric tons, not dTons. And hauled 20,000,000 mTons of refinery/ore/whatnot.

The BattleSpace system ala BattleTech was similar. A JumpShip would 'ploink' between stellar distances of up to 30ly. It would carry DropShips. (which may or may not be able to land on a planet depending on the design) The Droppies would detach from the Jumpy after the jump...the JumpShip would rarely move from the point of jump...but it could slowly do so when needed.

I would well imagine that similar concepts exist in Traveller to minimize mass...especially when trying to effectively use J1-2 drives.
 
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Anyone driving past a modern sea port has seen containerized frieght operations. All of us have seen the same containers on trains and trucks too. The same economic and operational concerns that have made containerized freight a solution on Earth will make containerized freight and/or lighter carried frieght a solution in the 57th Century.
Speaking of which, anyone care to hazard some guesses as to a table of standardized Traveller container dimensions, dTonnages occupied and internally available, and actual weights? (For the empty containers)

You'd think this would end up being standardized across the Imperium (for practical reasons). However, I have no idea what reasonable values are or how big real world containers are (they probably have a variety of sizes).
 
Abbodon,

This is a splendid idea and one that GMs have independently created and recreated over Traveller's 25 years. There are many versions of it, all differing in minor details, but all using what is essentially the principle; separate a ship's bulky and expensive jump drives from the cargo.

The earliest and most common example of this idea in Traveller is the battle rider - tender combination. One of the latest is GT:Far Trader's description of LASH operations. Others have included the proposed jump2 'ferries' the Ziru Sirka would use to connect Mains, Supplement 7's jump nets and SDB jump shuttle, TNE's modular RCE clipeprs, and Walt Smith's lovely 100dT 'jump pod'.

Anyone driving past a modern sea port has seen containerized frieght operations. All of us have seen the same containers on trains and trucks too. The same economic and operational concerns that have made containerized freight a solution on Earth will make containerized freight and/or lighter carried frieght a solution in the 57th Century.

I'm sure all of here would love to see the designs used in your system. T20's ship system resembles HG2 very much so, even if you don't have T20 yet, HG2 or LBB:2 designs would still be very useful.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
Speaking of which, anyone care to hazard some guesses as to a table of standardized Traveller container dimensions, dTonnages occupied and internally available, and actual weights? (For the empty containers)
There's a table in the THB covering (at least most of) that already.
 
Originally posted by Forged:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Speaking of which, anyone care to hazard some guesses as to a table of standardized Traveller container dimensions, dTonnages occupied and internally available, and actual weights? (For the empty containers)
There's a table in the THB covering (at least most of) that already. </font>[/QUOTE]I'll take a look and see what I find.... Thanks for the pointer (T20 ain't my version, but I do own it).
 
Cargo containers appeared in the old Supplement 7 (Traders and Gunboats) and perhaps earlier. If memory serves, they're 3m X 3m x 6m, with a capacity of 3.85 dtons.

The cargo hold of a Type R subsidized merchant is specifically designed to hold these containers (and it's hatches are built to pass them).

I know that I've seen a variant or alternate rule somewhere pricing cargo shipped in these containers at the standard 1kCr/ton, but charging a premium for odd-sized cargos - anyone else remember this?

John
 
For information re. the real world's standard cargo containers, take a look at http://www.itdn.com.cn/english/tradecenter/shipping07.htm -- their external dimensions are about 12.2 x 2.4 x 2.6 meters, and they actually hold about 67.7 cubic meters (about 4.8 dtons). Empty, the non-refrigerated kind weighs 3,800 kg. I hope somebody finds this information useful.

One of the big things in the real world is being able to take containers right off of ships, and load them onto trucks. I would strongly suspect that the same thing happens in the Traveller universe, and that there is some kind of heavy-duty grav vehicle designed to clamp onto and haul standard-sized cargo containers around -- probably a skeletal "cab-plus-spine" sort of thing that looks a lot like a modular cutter (minus the module), just a lot smaller.
 
Originally posted by marginaleye:
For information re. the real world's standard cargo containers, take a look at http://www.itdn.com.cn/english/tradecenter/shipping07.htm -- their external dimensions are about 12.2 x 2.4 x 2.6 meters, and they actually hold about 67.7 cubic meters (about 4.8 dtons). Empty, the non-refrigerated kind weighs 3,800 kg. I hope somebody finds this information useful.
Yessiree! And Mr. Appel's contrib too.

One of the big things in the real world is being able to take containers right off of ships, and load them onto trucks.
Hence 'container port'.... ;)


I would strongly suspect that the same thing happens in the Traveller universe, and that there is some kind of heavy-duty grav vehicle designed to clamp onto and haul standard-sized cargo containers around -- probably a skeletal "cab-plus-spine" sort of thing that looks a lot like a modular cutter (minus the module), just a lot smaller.
Think more than that: The standard module design would affect...

1. local tugs/tenders/cutters
2. all merchant shipping (door sizes/shapes, deck sizes/shapes, hold shapes, attachment points, etc)
3. warehouses
4. ground vehicle design (not much point in building a 3m wide container if standard imperial ground vehicles aren't 3m wide..... it suddenly becomes a 'wide load') especially of transports, small single and dual axle 'one container' units, etc.

Plus I'm assuming there are going to be specialized containers with less internal space due to the internal maintenance of gravity, temp, EM shielding, etc. Or do these power from outside sources like the ship?

3 x 3 x 6 sounds like workable round figures. It should contain about 4 dTons, so 3.85 is a good estimation assuming some space is taken up by the containers hull and internal packing. 3m is a wide but not unreasonable width for standard imperial vessels and ground vehicles. I'd guess, based on what you've said, that this would be rated for about 2000 kg or maybe 2500 kg.

However, I also suspect the Imperium has several sizes and several weight and temp/grav/light/etc. ratings. There is probably a catalog of standard units and they must stack etc. And they undoubtedly (if multiple sized) are sized in multiples of one another to allow non homogeneous stacking.
 
I've often pondered this... I wonder how one would work out the effective tonnage for a stackable, perhaps magnetically adherent Cargo container, for 1-3 tons of cargo....

omega.gif
 
3x3x6 is exactly 4 Dtons. Consider the source.

The other container is so close to being exactly 5 Dtons that it might as well be. (67.5kl)

These are 13.5 kl.

As for stacking... why not box-like? Anything else eventually is a waste of space, and boxes fit inside box-shaped cargo holds very nicely. Boxes roll less than hexes too. And there's no difficulty in putting studs and pits to get them to stack kind of like leggos. You go with what works.
 
A variation on that theme that I woked out was having the jump sction non streamlined. Then having a large streamlined lander that is caried from place to place. This is more for frontier areas or mercinary drops. This makes for an orbital station to overlook things and a ground side unloading large cargos. ;)
 
I must say that I absolutly love this idea and would like to see more. the idea of Big-Rig like cargo transports ferrying what would equate to Bulk Cargo containers within a single larger cargo container which could be linked together into trains I think is a fabulous idea and would certain add an alternative feel to the setting. Adding spice for older players perhaps (a change of pace so to speak). The Trick becomes how to design these things to validate jumping with them.

I picture the freight pods nothing more than a jump drive, fuel compartment and a cargo area. no crew or manuver drives, minimal automated computer system. The ships should prolly have enough fuel to run several jumps before refueling even if it is only a Jump 1 ship (minimal down-time between jumps).


the requirement for a pilot/astrogater is waved because if the lack of a bridge. everything control from the 'Rig'. Stewards and Medics are waved cause theirs no one on board. Engineering staff could be waved cause the Pods are expected to undergo maintence after every few jumps. the computer system in each pod allowing for the RIG based Engineers to handle problems in the event of a problem.

The Rig you could define as normal with little to no cargo of its own but instead have more fuel and space on board for the crew, a more powerful overseer computer system and Freight-Pod docking points. More powerful Manuvering drives to accelerate and decellerate the 'train'. That and perhaps add a new system called a Link-Web that would allow the jump-webs of all the jump drives to link together and protect the whole train from jump space.

The Crew requirments for such a rig would be the same perhaps adding 1 Engineer per 1/2/3 freight-pods in addition to ships own engineer. Thus you have a Pilot/Astrogater, Medic/Engineer and 2-6 Freight-Engineers for a train of 6 Freight Pods.

The Rig would likly need to be built with 'outboard' style reversable engines (FireFly anyone?) to accellerate and decellerate the train. Either a formula could be used to determine the accelleration/decel. depending on how many pods are attached and the strength of the manuvering drive. The rig would in effect be mostly engine (Manuvering and Jump). That or perhaps simply it and say that you loose 1/2G accel and 1point of agility per freight pod . This would allow a Mav. 6 'Rig' to have up to 10 Pods and be at a -5 Agility cause of the length of the train and still have 1G of acc./decel.

This substanially reduces the crew requirments on board a ship just to haul cargo and makes adventuring(or piracy) options more realistic. The Rig itself may only be 200-800tons instead of having to be multi-thousand ton freighters which no pirate would attack (as I've been told, too much hassle).

This could effect the economics a bit though, perhaps needing to be refigured, perhaps getting paid less per freight pod cause of the costs of fueling and maintence on them. But because they could carry more cargo they are paid for more cargo and it balences out.

Definitly requires more thought and research but I like it and think if something could be ironed out that I want to impliment it in my T20U.

Zephyrus
 
Originally posted by kaladorn:
Speaking of which, anyone care to hazard some guesses as to a table of standardized Traveller container dimensions, dTonnages occupied and internally available, and actual weights? (For the empty containers).
The cylindrical, 30 dtn cutter module would have to be one of the most ubiquitious of these containers and a staple of the LASH trade. These are admittedly more difficult to stow than rectangular containers but they make transshipment a breeze. I'll post the HG2 stats for a dispersed-structure jump ship which is dedicated to hauling cutter modules.

Unless there's a special 30 dtn cargo rack holding 5 x 5 dtn containers, with the remaining space dedicated to an encloseable structure. Imagine this: you park your cargo rack beneath a modular cutter. Its cargo module hinges open, clamshell-style, envelops the cargo rack and then closes to provide streamlining and protection against atmospheric reentry. Large operations would have this process down to a science with dozens or even hundreds of modular cutters queuing up in holding patterns around LASH rendezvous points.

IMTU, I have a similar setup for large scale mining operations where the mining platform also incorporates a traffic control centre to coordinate both transshipment and refuelling fleet activities.

Though this is slightly off topic, in YTU, how much transshipment would occur at the downport of a Class A or B starport? IMTU, none. Only specialized cargoes. It makes more sense to me to have a highport near the 100 D limit and have all transshipment occur there. The standardized containers might never see planetfall in a system as busy as Jewell. That would also have a big impact on the form factor of standardized containers since they would never have to withstand atmospheric reentry.

~ C
 
Though this is slightly off topic, in YTU, how much transshipment would occur at the downport of a Class A or B starport? IMTU, none. Only specialized cargoes. It makes more sense to me to have a highport near the 100 D limit and have all transshipment occur there. The standardized containers might never see planetfall in a system as busy as Jewell. That would also have a big impact on the form factor of standardized containers since they would never have to withstand atmospheric reentry.
What about instead of a High-port instead Refueling tankers out near common trans-shipment arrival points. Close enough in that these refueling tankers could just zip over to the awaiting freight rig and train. Fuel it up while it drops off containers ment for this system (to be picked up by intra-system/non-jump rigs brough along with the refueling tanker) and maybe if nessisary pick up priority outgoing containers (again brought along with the refueling tanker or sitting waiting by it). Quiet possible a SDB may be their to oversea the operations and deter pirates from attacking either the tanker or the cargo train.

Thus maybe a train might go 2-3 jumps before hitting port (thus another reason for the freight pods to carry 2-3 jumps worth of fuel if possible.

This would be a good way to handle 'main' traffic on J1 planet strings. systems with J2 or J3 might be possible as well if the system was established to with J2 or J3 Freight-pods. If J2 and J3 frieght-pods were not used that is where Far-Traders may come in allowing freight to get to more difficult (ie further) places.

In all the income a Freight-Jumper could be potentially more than regular free and far traders cause they could concievably get 3 or even 4 jumps in a month done on a 'Run'. Getting paid less per jump. even at a fraction of the payment (cause the shipping company sponsering the freight-pod is paying for the fuel and maintence) with as many Pods as Freight-Jumper could carry they'd make that up and possible make alot more if they could run a 3 jump a month run. It WOULD require that such a freighting company have invested a fair amount into such a system. But once working it could churn out alot of traffic. Likly the Cargo space on the Freight-Jumper would/could be used for additional Lifesupport supplies.

Zephyrus
 
Originally posted by zephyrus:
What about instead of a High-port instead Refueling tankers out near common trans-shipment arrival points.
I don't think refuelling tankers would be enough. Turnaround time is critical to keeping this kind of route viable, and it's only going to appear on the most heavily-trafficked mains. Any serious LASH operation will also have a spare parts depot close to the jump limit. So why not park your high port as close to 100D as possible? It makes enforcement of the 100D limit easier by providing an on-station base for SDBs, makes transshipment incredibly rapid by concentrating logistics close to the jump point and still allows you to make planetfall within several hours for most systems. The highports would also allow liners to concentrate passenger traffic and avoid those costly dirtside trips.

I see a maximum of 1 day turnaround, allowing one jump-2 every 8-9 days. That's a minimum of 3 jumps/month. It would be as exciting and as risk free as driving a bus, but would be a good living for crews who like that kind of stability.

Close enough in that these refueling tankers could just zip over to the awaiting freight rig and train. Fuel it up while it drops off containers ment for this system (to be picked up by intra-system/non-jump rigs brough along with the refueling tanker).
That's pretty much how I see it as well, except that having some kind of full-service station at the LASH point would eliminate the need to carry additional life-support. There'd be a whole industry just devoted to providing support for these "supertankers of space". Put 10 of these carriers on a single main and you'd be looking at departures every 3 days or so.

Good adventure fodder for the PCs if they happen to be insystem when a LASH carrier goes kaplooey and there's a cargo that absolutely has to get to the next system within a week!

This would be a good way to handle 'main' traffic on J1 planet strings. systems with J2 or J3 might be possible as well if the system was established to with J2 or J3 Freight-pods. If J2 and J3 frieght-pods were not used that is where Far-Traders may come in allowing freight to get to more difficult (ie further) places.
I'll post my design for a J-2 modular carrier. I think our ideas would be inevitable in heavily-trafficked areas of the inner Imperium. It just seems impossible to me that an economy that large wouldn't take advantage of the 'economies of scale' that LASH operations promise.
 
Originally posted by salamander:
The cylindrical, 30 dtn cutter module would have to be one of the most ubiquitious of these containers and a staple of the LASH trade. These are admittedly more difficult to stow than rectangular containers but they make transshipment a breeze. I'll post the HG2 stats for a dispersed-structure jump ship which is dedicated to hauling cutter modules.
That seems likely, though if I can't then plonk it onto a truck, the system breaks down once I hit planetside. Mind you, it may be filled with other modules that are smaller and fit standard flatbed lifters and haulers planetside.

up in holding patterns around LASH rendezvous
I'm lazy, what's the acronym?

Though this is slightly off topic, in YTU, how much transshipment would occur at the downport of a Class A or B starport? IMTU, none. Only specialized cargoes.
Trans-shipment would occur at several places. It would occur at the truck to atmospheric interface point (the Down Port) and at the interface to interstellar point (the High Port). So all cargo destined for the world would inevitably be transhipped from some form of lander to some form of ground transport (rail is also a good option) at the Down Port.

It makes more sense to me to have a highport near the 100 D limit and have all transshipment occur there.
Um, not really.

The 100D limit is not one place. It's a huge space out beyond 100D, and even right at 100D, its a huge orbit. So, if I move something into that orbit, now instead of me coming out somewhere at 100D (and I expect the exact location will vary because the relative star geometries change and the planet that the High Port is over revolves around its primary) and having to fly a distance of 100D to the planet, I may (if I'm unlucky) have to fly 200D (100D to the planet and 100D further to the High Port).

This kind of system only makes sense in a 'jump gate' universe where the emergence points are fixed. In Traveller, you could appear anywhere orbit-wise wrt the target planet due to movement around the primary and other aspects of jump space physics possibly. So the 100D limit isn't a point, it's a damn big circle, and putting the High Port out there would be an advantage for about half your traffic, no benefit or loss to a few ships, and a penalty for the other half (just based on geometry).

The standardized containers might never see planetfall in a system as busy as Jewell. That would also have a big impact on the form factor of standardized containers since they would never have to withstand atmospheric reentry.
Yes, but within them will be other standardized containers which *will* see atmospheric entry and which will be trans-shipped onto trucks, etc. for further distribution.
 
Right off the top, I'd better declare that most of my decisions are strictly IMTU, based on my interpretation of canon.

I may be completely wrong in my assumptions. Adjust your salt doseage accordingly.

The model I'm proposing only works on well-travelled mains and probably requires the resources of a megacorp, or two.

Originally posted by kaladorn:
I'm lazy, what's the acronym?
"Lighter Aboard SHip". Here's a sample design for Traveller.

Trans-shipment would occur at several places. It would occur at the truck to atmospheric interface point (the Down Port) and at the interface to interstellar point (the High Port). So all cargo destined for the world would inevitably be transhipped from some form of lander to some form of ground transport (rail is also a good option) at the Down Port.
Yes, but not all cargo arriving insystem needs to make a dirtside stop. I'll bet there's lots of wheeling and dealing going on near the 100D, especially in heavily developed systems. You're not going to drop that 30 ton shipment of mining vac suits dirtside only to turn around and boost them back out to the planetoid belt, are you? If not, where do you unload them? The highport makes the most sense. In the same way, a lot of bulk traffic never makes it beyond warehouses in certain terran seaports.

Um, not really.

The 100D limit is not one place. It's a huge space out beyond 100D, and even right at 100D, its a huge orbit. So, if I move something into that orbit, now instead of me coming out somewhere at 100D (and I expect the exact location will vary because the relative star geometries change and the planet that the High Port is over revolves around its primary) and having to fly a distance of 100D to the planet, I may (if I'm unlucky) have to fly 200D (100D to the planet and 100D further to the High Port).
Okay, we have to make some assumptions about how this kind of trade works in our TUs. If we're thinking like a shipping company and not like a merchant, travelling dirtside just isn't your problem, in the same way that the owner of a seagoing LASH is not going to concern himself about which tractor-trailers are going to show up portside. Presumably, the LASH company is going to leave it up to Consolidated Fast Freight to arrange for those trucks to be there. Gurps Traveller: Far Trader explicitly states that LASH operations happen as close to the 100D limit as possible to ensure that the freight keeps moving.

So let's say you have a high port which is really a 1Mdtn vessel in "orbit" at 100Ds around a planet. Even if you precipitate out of jump at the opposite end of this ellipse, you could simply decelerate retrograde and allow the highport to "catch up" with you, as opposed to travelling ~ 200D. This would result in maybe a single day's delay. Consider also that any LASH operation is going to deal with extremely accurate charts and jump calculations. They may even have pre-plotted jump courses for every world on a main which would include jump shadowing, orbital eccentricities, relative locations of the high port, etc. When it absolutely has to be there on time, you're going to get very precise about these kind of things. About the only thing you can't control is how "long" you're in j-space. I haven't seen canon say anyhing about how precisely you can plot your emergence so, IMTU, a big shipping company can drop cargo on a dime.

This kind of system only makes sense in a 'jump gate' universe where the emergence points are fixed. In Traveller, you could appear anywhere orbit-wise wrt the target planet due to movement around the primary and other aspects of jump space physics possibly. So the 100D limit isn't a point, it's a damn big circle,
Well, it's not that big considering the velocities possible with reactionless thrusters and the virtually unlimited fuel available to Traveller ships. And your example of having tankers meet the LASH carriers makes things at least as complicated. The LASHC will have to contact system control on injump. Tankers will have to be dispatched and match velocities; transshipment cutters/shuttles, etc. will have to do the same. All of these would have to converge on a moving target in space--requiring an awful lot of coordination.

But if the highport were out there, the LASHC simply "catches up" to the highport by accelerating or retrograde deceleration and all of those tankers, cutters, etc. are dispatched from one location.

Well, it works that way IMTU. You may make different assumptions about how jump works.

and putting the High Port out there would be an advantage for about half your traffic, no benefit or loss to a few ships, and a penalty for the other half (just based on geometry).
Again, the assumption that I'm making is that there's the same separation between interstellar and insystem transportation as exists between overland and oversea shipping in large, heavily-trafficked systems. The same company may handle both but will treat each as a distinct stage. Frontier areas will be organized much closer to the "tramp freighter" concept and transshipment will be more dirtside-centric.

Yes, but within them will be other standardized containers which *will* see atmospheric entry and which will be trans-shipped onto trucks, etc. for further distribution.
I was trying to make that point. Sorry if I wasn't clear. This is one of the reasons why I propose the cutter module as a standard shipping package. It's already designed for atmospheric reentry. If a certain module can open clamshell-style to envelop smaller modular containers, you have a completely standardized shipping system which can extend from sea-level to 100D almost seamlessly.

~ C
 
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