HASS (Homogeneity, Acceptance, Strangeness, Symbols)

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Some day should I live that long...

Oh crap, I didn't realize it was that big of a range.

In that case, I would label them by ranges with examples, and then show where Symbolics could be used as a MOD to tasks.


Can these native aliens figure out that the markings on your ship represent a corporate symbol, rather than a totemic one?

Difficult task <= Education + SYMBOLS

Failure.

The chief alien cocks his head. "Which spirit guide is indicated on your flying chariot?"

I do so want game with you, you're quick with this kinda thing.

Excellent example.

Uhhh I use ummm Science: Sociology--1, got it during a Scout Term and explain it is the Spirit of Great Values who bestows it benefits upon those fly in the vessel and further its great works of bringing all people of the stars together in a great web of goods and services exchanged through its clergy who it grants great powers to and are known by the title of Employees and whose high clergy are the mighty and wise Board of Directors.

 

[robject]

Uhhh I use ummm Science: Sociology--1, got it during a Scout Term and explain it is the Spirit of Great Values who bestows it benefits upon those fly in the vessel and further its great works of bringing all people of the stars together in a great web of goods and services exchanged through its clergy who it grants great powers to and are known by the title of Employees and whose high clergy are the mighty and wise Board of Directors.

The Chief listens, then takes a moment to respond. "Ah, you speak of Khakhu Pelli, the travelling salesman. Yes, le is one of our spirits as well. Le teaches our young ikhe to be wary of the travelling salesman. The story is that the foolish ikhe is left heavy with eggs due to allowing le into the home."

 

[Ulsyus]

Guys, do you think that there may need to be a bit more work defining the term Symbols?

From the basic go-to research tool the concept of symbolism has related fields in the arts, religion and science. Each of those fields breaks down into sub-fields for further detailing.

Viewed through the lens of comparative literature, it could be seen as how different cultures present/communicate ideas in different forms, be they visual, literary and/or musical. Mix that with an anthropological twist and there's the potential for this to be more than a scale of physical to metaphysical illustrations of concepts. It could be measured in the same way as strangeness: the lower it is, the closer it is to Imperial norms, and hence communication more readily understood because of the use of common idioms and metaphors. So with a low Strangeness and higher Symbols, things outwardly look and operate in a similar way to the 3I, but their society would seem a bit hard to understand at times, the people doing things that just seemed a bit counter-intuitive to someone from the Imperium. We get the same sort of thing today, dealing with other nations that look the same as we do but then behave in a way that just doesn't make sense to us at times.

Maybe before haring off into the conceptual blue yonder there should be an inquiry with The Source to see if he had any solid ideas on this, or if this was something to still be developed. If it's the former then the question could save a lot of unnecessary contemplation. I say that because this is

 

[robject]

That's a good observation. However, if it had the same scale/value meaning as strangeness, wouldn't strangeness completely encompass symbology as well?

+15 completely different symbols

+15 completely strange (e.g. completely different symbology included)

 

[Ulsyus]

That could be the case, but I don't know that we can be certain without a better explanation.

We use different symbols for different purposes even today, ranging from the concrete (physical and artistic religious symbology used to identify particular belief systems) to the abstract (a collective of national entities attempting to work together in the interests of preventing and limiting inter-and-intra-national conflict).

You could wind the whole thing up into Strangeness, but that reduces the ability to have it all be a little more nuanced. If you think of them as linked codes, then low Strange and Symbols is most familiar, one high and one low is weird or difficult to parse but it's not impossible to work things out, while both high just leaves people confused. A bit like the Size and Atmosphere UWP ratings offer nuances of gravity & attendant physical behaviour on a world while different atmospheres dictate elements of climate which change how visitors have to prepare themselves for exposure planetside. Complementary, but different.

 

[tjoneslo]

Ulsyus makes an interesting point. It may be easier to relate symbols with strangeness if the range of values were more closely related.

 

[Macus74Bishop]

Excellent discussion everyone. Thank you.

Would we all agree that this is an aspect where some work would result in decent information for the basic or advanced GM?

Do you think that further explanation or clarity of the definitions are desired for each of the aspects of H.A.S.S.?

I, for one say yes to both.

 

[khadaji2002]

Excellent discussion everyone. Thank you.

Would we all agree that this is an aspect where some work would result in decent information for the basic or advanced GM?

Do you think that further explanation or clarity of the definitions are desired for each of the aspects of H.A.S.S.?

I, for one say yes to both.

I say yes to both as well. Now that I'm getting the concept of H.A.S.S. I would like to see one or more tables for each aspect, and examples of how each might look in-game. I can see where Strangeness/Symbols especially could use concrete ideas to help GMs along.

 

[tjoneslo]

When I was trying to understand the HASS, the Symbols threw me for a while too. And then I started to look at this this way.

In order to maintain, or increase, Technology level (the basis of Symbols rating), you need to have the populace understand the technology they are working with every day.

For example, A TL 7 technology uses ground cars. There is a whole set of symbols around operation of a ground car: road signs, markings on the road for which lane to use, instruments on the dashboard, lights on the other cars, and so on.

If you go an read stories of the early 19th century about when car's first started to show up, people had no idea what to with them. They lack the symbology, or knowledge of, cars and all the parts how to interact with them.

So to have a stable TL-7 society everyone needs to know, that is be part of their education, all of the part of the society they are operating in. Cars, communications, schools, government, commerce, social situations. These all have rules, signs, and expectations of how to interact with them.

So the flux roll of 0 on the Symbols says most everyone gets world as constructed. Everyone knows what a car is, how it operates, rules of the road, how to see what the other cars are doing, etc. Even if they don't operate the vehicles themselves.

When the flux roll deviates from the median (0 point) it would mean the larger and larger parts of the population don't have an understanding of the standard conventions of technology level.

For example, a Symbols of 2 on a TL7 world would imply that almost everyone has never seen a ground car, let alone know how to operate one. There would be few, if any roads, and those that do exist lack basic road markings, and diving on one would be experience as the few ground cars you would meet have different expectations of how the rules of the road operate.

On a Symbols 12 / TL 7 world, every road is clearly marked with signs, lights, and lines. Every citizen is given refresher courses on driving.

So symbols says how well people interact with the expected technology of their own world. Strageness says how different are those rules from the expected Imperial (or external) standards.

Car example: In Britain, you drive on the left side of the road, whereas in America you drive on the right. But most of the other rules are the same. So a little strange, but both have high symbols ratings.

Because learning to drive a car requires learning the whole set of symbology around cars, it becomes easy to reverse this idea. Worlds where the Symbols are behind the technology level are failing to teach their citizens (for whatever cultural reasons) all of the things they need to operate in their own world. They are falling back technologically.

Conversely, worlds where symbols are ahead of the technology level are more aggressively teaching their citizens about the parts of their world. They will be advancing technologically.

Most of the Imperial citizens have a symbology rating of somewhere between 10 and 14. Or probably based upon the TL of their home world. Members of the Imperial armed forces (Navy and Scouts especially, but also Marines and Army) will have a symbology rating of 15 (imperial maximum).

If your character has (for example) a understanding of TL 12, going to the Symbols 2 / TL 7 world will seem like utter chaos. Sure the technology is understandable (mostly), but no one seems to have the same knowlege.

Conversely on a Symbols 12 / TL 7 world, they will fit right in. Sure the technology is a little backwards but everything is clear, easy to understand, works as expected.

And on a Symbols 20 / TL 15 world, it would be mindboggling. Everything is marked in weird ways that make no sense. The order of operations to get anything done is obscure and rules are confused. Clearly there is order to everything, but you have no idea how to manage anything.

 

[Ulsyus]

The great Joseph Campbell defined a symbol as

an energy evoking and directing agent.

Next,

a symbol, like everything else, shows a double aspect. We must distinguish, therefore between the 'sense' and the 'meaning' of the symbol. It seems to me perfectly clear that all the great and little symbolical systems of the past functioned simultaneously on three levels: the corporeal of waking consciousness, the spiritual of dream, and the ineffable of the absolutely unknowable. The term 'meaning' can refer only to the first two but these, today, are in the charge of science – which is the province as we have said, not of symbols but of signs. The ineffable, the absolutely unknowable, can be only sensed. It is the province of art which is not 'expression' merely, or even primarily, but a quest for, and formulation of, experience evoking, energy-waking images: yielding what Sir Herbert Read has aptly termed a 'sensuous apprehension of being'

Which is all a bit more than saying that a symbol is a mark, sign, or word that indicates, signifies, or is understood as representing an idea, object, or relationship.

Red: stop/danger/alert.
White lines perpendicular to the road running from one side to the other: pedestrian crossing
War: translates into all languages and in that form means the same thing.
Victim: translates into all languages and in that form means the same thing but with variations due to cultural connotations.

 

[robject]

When I was trying to understand the HASS, the Symbols threw me for a while too. And then I started to look at this this way.

In order to maintain, or increase, Technology level (the basis of Symbols rating), you need to have the populace understand the technology they are working with every day.

In other words, it's reasonable to look at HASS as primarily practical.

 

[Ishmael]

I disagree. As Ulsyus has pointed out, symbols are more than just language or visuals. Symbols should extend to allegories, parables, fables, etc. that attempt to communicate ideas that might be somewhat abstract by using things that the listener has experience with. Perhaps 'Symbols' should be a measure of how adept at abstract thought and handling of hypothetical situations the society is.

'Symbols' should then be related to philosophy, folklore, and religion.
'Symbols' value is inversely proportional to a society's pragmatism.
With extreme low values, there are no similes or metaphors in thought or speech.

A too high value might mean everyone is in an ivory tower focussed on theoretical problems and hypotheticals whereas a too low value might indicate a collective lack of imagination concerning things beyond the traditional order.

Perhaps a high values indicates a society of ascetics and at extremes, mononastic societies. Low value points towards pragmatism and rampant materialism ( as opposed to spiritualism ).

If looked at in this fashion, extreme values in either direction hamper tech advancement.

 

[khadaji2002]

Very interesting reading over the last couple of days. What I'm gathering (aside from the great philosophical ideas coming out) is that Symbols within the HASS framework could use more concrete definition, and then some solid examples of what that would look like. I found the car example very clear in how symbols might differ with different levels of Symbols and Strangeness. Seeing how differing levels would work with meta-physical ideas would be good as well.

Thank you all, everyone posting ideas here. I'm learning a lot!

 

[Condottiere]

Symbols are complex memes and tropes, somewhat more universally recognizable, compared to our current more pop culture orientated ones, which requires an somewhat active knowledge as to their origins and zeitgeist to fully appreciate their message and what their user is trying to imply.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Symbols are for entertainment purposes. Like graffiti in bathrooms, abandoned buildings, caves.

 

[whulorigan]

Also check out these threads, if you haven't already (they are both fairly short threads):

• [HASS]
• Cultural Extension (Cx): [HASS] Symbols

 

[Ulsyus]

Symbols are complex memes and tropes, somewhat more universally recognizable, compared to our current more pop culture orientated ones, which requires an somewhat active knowledge as to their origins and zeitgeist to fully appreciate their message and what their user is trying to imply.

I don't know if they need to be necessarily considered complex, but possibly more contextual. If you get the context, it has meaning, but if not then it's part in communication will be a blank to you until you understand it. So the Symbol rating in HASS relates to how similar to or different from 3I (or other? Hierate? Consulate?) norms the Symbols on that world are, and therefore how easy or difficult it may be for sophonts from that world and Imperials/others to interact.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

New thoughts on Cx interacting with Technology based on tjoneslo

An idea occured to me in relation to technology and Symbols, based on tjoneslo's excellent contribution. What I am after is translating the Cultural Extension into a bit of descriptive text for world building purposes to extend the T5 World builder. To re-cap:

When I was trying to understand the HASS, the Symbols threw me for a while too. And then I started to look at this this way.

In order to maintain, or increase, Technology level (the basis of Symbols rating), you need to have the populace understand the technology they are working with every day.

For example, A TL 7 technology uses ground cars. There is a whole set of symbols around operation of a ground car: road signs, markings on the road for which lane to use, instruments on the dashboard, lights on the other cars, and so on.

If you go an read stories of the early 19th century about when car's first started to show up, people had no idea what to with them. They lack the symbology, or knowledge of, cars and all the parts how to interact with them.

So to have a stable TL-7 society everyone needs to know, that is be part of their education, all of the part of the society they are operating in. Cars, communications, schools, government, commerce, social situations. These all have rules, signs, and expectations of how to interact with them.

So the flux roll of 0 on the Symbols says most everyone gets world as constructed. Everyone knows what a car is, how it operates, rules of the road, how to see what the other cars are doing, etc. Even if they don't operate the vehicles themselves.

When the flux roll deviates from the median (0 point) it would mean the larger and larger parts of the population don't have an understanding of the standard conventions of technology level.

For example, a Symbols of 2 on a TL7 world would imply that almost everyone has never seen a ground car, let alone know how to operate one. There would be few, if any roads, and those that do exist lack basic road markings, and diving on one would be experience as the few ground cars you would meet have different expectations of how the rules of the road operate.

On a Symbols 12 / TL 7 world, every road is clearly marked with signs, lights, and lines. Every citizen is given refresher courses on driving.

So symbols says how well people interact with the expected technology of their own world. Strageness says how different are those rules from the expected Imperial (or external) standards.

Car example: In Britain, you drive on the left side of the road, whereas in America you drive on the right. But most of the other rules are the same. So a little strange, but both have high symbols ratings.

Because learning to drive a car requires learning the whole set of symbology around cars, it becomes easy to reverse this idea. Worlds where the Symbols are behind the technology level are failing to teach their citizens (for whatever cultural reasons) all of the things they need to operate in their own world. They are falling back technologically.

Conversely, worlds where symbols are ahead of the technology level are more aggressively teaching their citizens about the parts of their world. They will be advancing technologically.

Most of the Imperial citizens have a symbology rating of somewhere between 10 and 14. Or probably based upon the TL of their home world. Members of the Imperial armed forces (Navy and Scouts especially, but also Marines and Army) will have a symbology rating of 15 (imperial maximum).

If your character has (for example) a understanding of TL 12, going to the Symbols 2 / TL 7 world will seem like utter chaos. Sure the technology is understandable (mostly), but no one seems to have the same knowlege.

Conversely on a Symbols 12 / TL 7 world, they will fit right in. Sure the technology is a little backwards but everything is clear, easy to understand, works as expected.

And on a Symbols 20 / TL 15 world, it would be mindboggling. Everything is marked in weird ways that make no sense. The order of operations to get anything done is obscure and rules are confused. Clearly there is order to everything, but you have no idea how to manage anything.

Building on this idea, we can bring in the Technology Chapter (p. 495 T5.09). A world with Symbols rating higher than the local TL has many examples of early versions of higher TL items. Conversely, a world with a Symbols rating lower than TL has a tendency to stick to well-designed lower technology items.

We would impose exceptions, starting with Paradigm Shift technologies but perhaps expanding to other technologies that represent a social overhaul not merely progression.

For example, a TL7 world with Symbols 9 has examples of Prototype versions of TL9 goods in wider use than expected. This society has more early adopters of higher technology but the locals can only produce them at TL7.

Conversely, a TL10 society with Symbols 6 generally uses TL6 technology but at Ultimate development. This society does have later technologies but they have not entered mainstream culture in this society in any significant way.

 

[Timerover51]

An idea occured to me in relation to technology and Symbols, based on tjoneslo's excellent contribution. What I am after is translating the Cultural Extension into a bit of descriptive text for world building purposes to extend the T5 World builder. To re-cap:



Building on this idea, we can bring in the Technology Chapter (p. 495 T5.09). A world with Symbols rating higher than the local TL has many examples of early versions of higher TL items. Conversely, a world with a Symbols rating lower than TL has a tendency to stick to well-designed lower technology items.

We would impose exceptions, starting with Paradigm Shift technologies but perhaps expanding to other technologies that represent a social overhaul not merely progression.

For example, a TL7 world with Symbols 9 has examples of Prototype versions of TL9 goods in wider use than expected. This society has more early adopters of higher technology but the locals can only produce them at TL7.

Conversely, a TL10 society with Symbols 6 generally uses TL6 technology but at Ultimate development. This society does have later technologies but they have not entered mainstream culture in this society in any significant way.

For those who have not looked, the following is the ENTIRE discussion of Symbols in the T5.0.9 rule book.

Symbols TL + Flux

Symbols used by the culture may range from the concrete (idols; totems; statuary) to the abstract (symbolized belief systems; group affiliations).

I will play the role of Devil's Advocate here, and given the very limited amount of space in the rules devoted to this, most of the discussion on symbols is rule parsing carried to the extreme. I do not see anything in the one sentence description to clearly link it to Tech Level, and given the terms used, "idols/totems/statuary/symbolized belief systems/group affiliations", I would view any connection to Tech Level as being tenuous at best. Why Marc tossed this in, I have no idea, as at best, I view it as an optional something to be put in a side bar.

As for the rest of the Cultural Extension factors, the only one that I might pay attention to is Homogeneity, and that only for planets of low population, like population exponent of 5 or less. Look at the Earth presently. We have a population exponent of 9, so better than 50 per cent of the time we would have a Homogeneity Rating of 9 or higher, indicating a fairly to highly homogeneous population. A more realistic rating of Earth for Homogeneity would be a 1, except that you cannot get there with a die roll plus population. The lowest level would be a 4.

I have been dealing with this in using Sector Maker to put my new sector together, and some of the results are pretty weird. I finally decided to simply ignore the results and impose my own determination if needed.

I simply do not understand this slavish acceptance of the results of random die rolling. I guess I have imbued too much of the Gygax dictum of die rolling, and that is if the result is not what you want, throw it out. Super-detailed rules are for game like Chess, not role-playing games.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

I do not see anything in the one sentence description to clearly link it to Tech Level

The result itself is generated from Tech Level. Thus, the number presumes that higher-technology societies have a greater Symbol value. Tech Level is thus central to the concept of symbols.

As for the rest of the Cultural Extension factors, the only one that I might pay attention to is Homogeneity, and that only for planets of low population, like population exponent of 5 or less. Look at the Earth presently. We have a population exponent of 9, so better than 50 per cent of the time we would have a Homogeneity Rating of 9 or higher, indicating a fairly to highly homogeneous population. A more realistic rating of Earth for Homogeneity would be a 1, except that you cannot get there with a die roll plus population. The lowest level would be a 4.

The general feeling I get is that the higher the population, the more conservative and unified it is; the lower the population, the more individual differences come to the fore. Earth is very homogenous in outlook in the modern day in contrast to the past thanks to globalisation.

I simply do not understand this slavish acceptance of the results of random die rolling. I guess I have imbued too much of the Gygax dictum of die rolling, and that is if the result is not what you want, throw it out. Super-detailed rules are for game like Chess, not role-playing games.

In general sentiment, I agree. However, as my goal is to integrate the extensions into T5 World Builder, I would like a coherent set of descriptions that can be output based on a given set of parameters; then the Referee can impose her or his judgements on that output.