HASS (Homogeneity, Acceptance, Strangeness, Symbols)

[Timerover51]

The result itself is generated from Tech Level. Thus, the number presumes that higher-technology societies have a greater Symbol value. Tech Level is thus central to the concept of symbols.

Why?

The general feeling I get is that the higher the population, the more conservative and unified it is; the lower the population, the more individual differences come to the fore. Earth is very homogenous in outlook in the modern day in contrast to the past thanks to globalisation.

To answer this would require going to the Pit. I will strongly disagree with your viewpoint.

In general sentiment, I agree. However, as my goal is to integrate the extensions into T5 World Builder, I would like a coherent set of descriptions that can be output based on a given set of parameters; then the Referee can impose her or his judgements on that output.

Why?

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Hey timerover51 - sometimes it's hard to read emotion from text, but I am getting a vibe that something I've written has angered you. My apologies for any offence I have caused.

Just to clarify:

1) I think TL is central to the T5 conception of Symbols in the Cultural Extension only because TL is part of the formula; a TL1 society cannot have a Symbols rating above 6, and a TL12 society cannot have a Symbols rating below 7. These two societies are at very different stages of the way they use symbols and the central factor is TL, regardless of the flux roll.

2) The "feeling" I was describing was the sense I get from the rules to justify a higher homogeneity rating in line with higher populations generally have higher homogeneity. An analogy example from Earth: everyone understands the Coca Cola and McDonald's brands which are universally recognisable in a way that could not have been imagined 200 years ago. Obviously what different indivduals see as high or low homogeneity is relative - Earth is still also a place of many diverse languages and cultures.

3) I'm not stuck on numbers have fixed meaning - imagination trumps a set of numbers every time. But one limitation of building a computer generator is that you do need relatively specific output.

I ask myself why I keep building T5 World Builder - the short answer is 'for fun'. But the longer answer for involves generating enough detail to give a sense of verisimilitude while giving the Referee control over creative decisions at the gaming table. In line with this goal, more world detail in relation to society and culture means a series of coherent statements that gives the Referee something to think about without being prescriptive.

 

[Timerover51]

I am gradually taking T5.0.9 to pieces and then trying to put it together in a more compact and understandable version for myself.

As for this conversation, I figure that it is ended. You have your universe, and I have mine, and I suspect that neither the twain will ever meet.

 

[tjoneslo]

For those who have not looked, the following is the ENTIRE discussion of Symbols in the T5.0.9 rule book.

Symbols TL + Flux

Symbols used by the culture may range from the concrete (idols; totems; statuary) to the abstract (symbolized belief systems; group affiliations).

I will play the role of Devil's Advocate here, and given the very limited amount of space in the rules devoted to this, most of the discussion on symbols is rule parsing carried to the extreme. I do not see anything in the one sentence description to clearly link it to Tech Level, and given the terms used, "idols/totems/statuary/symbolized belief systems/group affiliations", I would view any connection to Tech Level as being tenuous at best. Why Marc tossed this in, I have no idea, as at best, I view it as an optional something to be put in a side bar.

The result itself is generated from Tech Level. Thus, the number presumes that higher-technology societies have a greater Symbol value. Tech Level is thus central to the concept of symbols.

Why?

I simply do not understand this slavish acceptance of the results of random die rolling. I guess I have imbued too much of the Gygax dictum of die rolling, and that is if the result is not what you want, throw it out. Super-detailed rules are for game like Chess, not role-playing games.

This is, as you point out, a question of rules as dictate vs rules as inspiration.

As the person who came up with the original I did so for two reasons.

First, The errata process for T5 is slow to the point of being dead. So requesting Marc and the other T5 rules writers to expand on their two sentences and clarify the meaning and interpretations of their rules isn't happening. If I want to understand RAW, I need to do some pretty extreme extrapolations (or interpolations depending on your point of view) of the text. You may not agree with them, and that's fine. I'd love to see how you interpret these.

Second, like Ojno, I build tools for others to use. This places an onus on us to stick as closely as possible to the RAW. The tools should do the grunt work (roll dice, calculate values, look up results in a table, print them out in a pretty fashion) and let the user do the interpretations. Since a lot of the T5 Rules start with "Roll dice on this table", we're stuck with random results. It's a feature (or flaw) of Traveller 5th.

I am gradually taking T5.0.9 to pieces and then trying to put it together in a more compact and understandable version for myself.

I would love to see what you come up with when you feel comfortable sharing.

 

[Timerover51]

I would love to see what you come up with when you feel comfortable sharing.

I have no desire to get into copyright arguments with Marc. Anything that I put together will be for my use only, and there will also be a fair number of changes to it, especially in the area of Tech Level developments and equipment Tech Levels.

Right now, I have a bunch of things that I am working on, along with getting ready for my son's sentencing hearing in January.

As I said, I consider my part in this conversation closed, and to a degree, I regret making any comments in the first place.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Wiki HASS Updates

The wiki has posted definition articles for most of the extension pages now.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.