game mechanic?
- Thread starter Nurd_boy
- Start date
As of last word from Avery/Marc Miller, T^5 is still using a revision/expansion of the T4 mechanic (T4.1) (a playtest version is available as a .zip file at www.downport.com/traveller/t5/ if you're interested).
A lot of folks aren't too happy about this for a variety of reasons, probably the most widespread being its use of 'half-dice,' as first seen in T4. A couple months ago Avery/Marc mentioned the possibility of a new half-die-less system, but no further details on that have yet been forthcoming.
A lot of folks aren't too happy about this for a variety of reasons, probably the most widespread being its use of 'half-dice,' as first seen in T4. A couple months ago Avery/Marc mentioned the possibility of a new half-die-less system, but no further details on that have yet been forthcoming.
Ok, I'll say it since I haven't seen anyone else mention it:
Who bleeping gives a bleep about a bleeping half bleeping die? Is it going to upset the delicate balance of the universe and send particles streaming from our bodies at velocities approaching the speed of light? Is a black hole going to form in the center of a 3-sided die? Is the game going to become unplayable, unfun, and all around worthless because you're all so hung up on the tradition of dice having only 6 sides? You people must be about to burst forth and slay all those T20 players because how dare they use a die that is not a perfect cube! What a horrible thing to have in your life. I think some of you would rather be shot at than have to roll and count a half-die.
Perhaps that is the ultimate irony though that "normal" people (who have no concept of the joy role-playing brings its advoates) have long contended that these "games" are just for children, and we have fought that stereotype long and hard, and now a bunch of spoiled brats are fulfilling the prophecy and dooming us all.
Or am I just role-playing this wrong?
------------------
"This is a spaceship! Why did you throw that grenade here?"
"I was just trying to get the bad guys."
"Uh guys,..."
BOOOMM!
Who bleeping gives a bleep about a bleeping half bleeping die? Is it going to upset the delicate balance of the universe and send particles streaming from our bodies at velocities approaching the speed of light? Is a black hole going to form in the center of a 3-sided die? Is the game going to become unplayable, unfun, and all around worthless because you're all so hung up on the tradition of dice having only 6 sides? You people must be about to burst forth and slay all those T20 players because how dare they use a die that is not a perfect cube! What a horrible thing to have in your life. I think some of you would rather be shot at than have to roll and count a half-die.
Perhaps that is the ultimate irony though that "normal" people (who have no concept of the joy role-playing brings its advoates) have long contended that these "games" are just for children, and we have fought that stereotype long and hard, and now a bunch of spoiled brats are fulfilling the prophecy and dooming us all.
Or am I just role-playing this wrong?
------------------
"This is a spaceship! Why did you throw that grenade here?"
"I was just trying to get the bad guys."
"Uh guys,..."
BOOOMM!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheDS:
Who bleeping gives a bleep about a bleeping half bleeping die? Is it going to upset the delicate balance of the universe and send particles streaming from our bodies at velocities approaching the speed of light? Is a black hole going to form in the center of a 3-sided die? Is the game going to become unplayable, unfun, and all around worthless because you're all so hung up on the tradition of dice having only 6 sides? You people must be about to burst forth and slay all those T20 players because how dare they use a die that is not a perfect cube! What a horrible thing to have in your life. I think some of you would rather be shot at than have to roll and count a half-die.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, I brought it up so I guess it's my duty to respond. IMO the biggest complaint about the half-die isn't its non 6-sidedness (after all, it IS a six-sider) but rather the clunkiness of having to constantly divide the result by 2 - an extra mental step to slow things down in-game - compounded by the fact that in the 'current' (T4.1) incarnation of the system the progression looks like this:
Easy-------1D
Average----2D
Difficult--2.5D
Formidable-3D
Staggering-4D
Hopeless---5D
Impossible-6D
A nice, aesthetically pleasing and easy to remember numerical progression except for that lone half-die sticking out like a sore thumb in the middle of everything. That 'Difficult' is the single most commonly-called-for task only adds to the annoyance.
Some folks (Andrewmv for one) have remade the chart, adding half-dice at every step (i.e. 1D, 1.5D, 2D, 2.5D ... 5.5D, 6D) which I'm still not crazy about, both because of the aforementioned divide-the-result factor and also because I'm just not all that fond of 'buckets of dice' systems in general (I prefer a single roll - be it 2D6, 3D6, 1D10, 1D20, D%, or whatever - modified by DMs), but at least it's a regular progression and not an obvious ad hoc patch-job like T4.1.
And as for burning the D20 heretics, that's strictly old news ever since the proto-D20 incursion into our Cubic Realm sometimes known as TNE (not that we like it, but we've at least learned to be tolerant).
Who bleeping gives a bleep about a bleeping half bleeping die? Is it going to upset the delicate balance of the universe and send particles streaming from our bodies at velocities approaching the speed of light? Is a black hole going to form in the center of a 3-sided die? Is the game going to become unplayable, unfun, and all around worthless because you're all so hung up on the tradition of dice having only 6 sides? You people must be about to burst forth and slay all those T20 players because how dare they use a die that is not a perfect cube! What a horrible thing to have in your life. I think some of you would rather be shot at than have to roll and count a half-die.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, I brought it up so I guess it's my duty to respond. IMO the biggest complaint about the half-die isn't its non 6-sidedness (after all, it IS a six-sider) but rather the clunkiness of having to constantly divide the result by 2 - an extra mental step to slow things down in-game - compounded by the fact that in the 'current' (T4.1) incarnation of the system the progression looks like this:
Easy-------1D
Average----2D
Difficult--2.5D
Formidable-3D
Staggering-4D
Hopeless---5D
Impossible-6D
A nice, aesthetically pleasing and easy to remember numerical progression except for that lone half-die sticking out like a sore thumb in the middle of everything. That 'Difficult' is the single most commonly-called-for task only adds to the annoyance.
Some folks (Andrewmv for one) have remade the chart, adding half-dice at every step (i.e. 1D, 1.5D, 2D, 2.5D ... 5.5D, 6D) which I'm still not crazy about, both because of the aforementioned divide-the-result factor and also because I'm just not all that fond of 'buckets of dice' systems in general (I prefer a single roll - be it 2D6, 3D6, 1D10, 1D20, D%, or whatever - modified by DMs), but at least it's a regular progression and not an obvious ad hoc patch-job like T4.1.
And as for burning the D20 heretics, that's strictly old news ever since the proto-D20 incursion into our Cubic Realm sometimes known as TNE (not that we like it, but we've at least learned to be tolerant).
Secrect Cow Level
SOC-12
Not to rain on anybodies parade, but I wouldn't hold my breath for T5 if I were you. It's been in "draft and playtest form" for three years now. Considering that the next CT reprint is 2 months behind schedule, it's a safe bet that nobody has been working on T5 for months. Sadly, T5 will most probably exist only in the mind of Marc W. Miller.
Mår Ekkertsen
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>will most probably exist only in the mind of Marc W. Miller.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While I am sure Marc and his family are not currently hungry.
er, what was I saying? Oh ya.
Marc will do T5 when he needs to or he wants to. But I'll still have fun speculating about it all while I read the reprints and the new stuff from Steve Jackson Games' GURPS Traveller and Quicklink Interactive's d20 Traveller and the stuff my group dreams up.
Like Marc I'm just fat* and happy too.
*fat in this case is unrelated to weight.
The ramblings of the seriously tired end here.
------------------
mark ayers n2s@qwest.net , philosopher serf, editor of n2s; the journal for an empty mind
While I am sure Marc and his family are not currently hungry.
er, what was I saying? Oh ya.
Marc will do T5 when he needs to or he wants to. But I'll still have fun speculating about it all while I read the reprints and the new stuff from Steve Jackson Games' GURPS Traveller and Quicklink Interactive's d20 Traveller and the stuff my group dreams up.
Like Marc I'm just fat* and happy too.
*fat in this case is unrelated to weight.
The ramblings of the seriously tired end here.
------------------
mark ayers n2s@qwest.net , philosopher serf, editor of n2s; the journal for an empty mind
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by n2s:
Marc will do T5 when he needs to or he wants to. But I'll still have fun speculating about it all while I read the reprints and the new stuff from Steve Jackson Games' GURPS Traveller and Quicklink Interactive's d20 Traveller and the stuff my group dreams up.
Like Marc I'm just fat* and happy too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gotta agree. As far as having high-quality material published and available, Traveller (as concept/trademark/Universe/franchise/gaming-style, if not necessarily ruleset) today is in the best shape it's been in a decade or longer, and with the imminent release of T20 things only look to be getting even better.
So under the circumstances T^5 becomes something of a mirror for our Traveller desires, onto which everybody can project their hopes and desires for the "ultimate ideal Traveller set" combining the best of all previous editions along with great new ideas in a way which will not only satisfy the grognards but also seduce whole new generations with its obvious superiority to everything else on the market.
And it's definitely easier and more fun to dream, speculate, and argue about what should make up "the perfect Traveller" when there's new high quality material on store shelves than it was in the bad old post-GDW/IG days, when Traveller seemed headed for likely extinction (Ironically, for a company which was only in the Traveller-publishing business for the purpose of increasing the value of their movie-tie-in rights, each new shoddy that product IG released actually lessened the trademark's value, alienating existing fans and turning-off potential converts; all things considered it's surprising the name 'Traveller' retains as much cachet as it does: thank you CT reprints and Loren Wiseman!).
T^5 may very well appear someday, after the CT reprints are finished, and after GT and T20 have run their courses, and when that happens it'll be very unlikely to actually fulfill most/any of our ideals, but until that day T^5 doesn't exist 'only in the mind of Marc W. Miller,' it exists in the mind of everyone who's ever contemplated "the perfect Traveller," and, in all of our minds, it actually is Perfect.
(FWIW my personal Perfect Traveller consists mainly of MT, simplified occasionally to its CT roots, liberally sprinkled with bits of T4.1 playtest files and occasional doodads of my own invention, spread across numerous marked-up rulebooks, a handful of MS Word files, and my own imagination. And while I think it somewhat a shame that my house version isn't Official/Canonical, I also think that, as long as people are actually playing "Traveller" in some form or another, numerous competing/divergent homebrew systems are ultimately better than a single Official system of questionable quality (IMO: TNE, T4) -- since I'll never convince everybody to play My Way, let them all play their own ways. I'd rather learn/teach a few new rules every time I meet a new group of players than have everybody uniformly following the same (IMO) turkey, and nothing Ryan Dancey says can convince me otherwise.)
Marc will do T5 when he needs to or he wants to. But I'll still have fun speculating about it all while I read the reprints and the new stuff from Steve Jackson Games' GURPS Traveller and Quicklink Interactive's d20 Traveller and the stuff my group dreams up.
Like Marc I'm just fat* and happy too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gotta agree. As far as having high-quality material published and available, Traveller (as concept/trademark/Universe/franchise/gaming-style, if not necessarily ruleset) today is in the best shape it's been in a decade or longer, and with the imminent release of T20 things only look to be getting even better.
So under the circumstances T^5 becomes something of a mirror for our Traveller desires, onto which everybody can project their hopes and desires for the "ultimate ideal Traveller set" combining the best of all previous editions along with great new ideas in a way which will not only satisfy the grognards but also seduce whole new generations with its obvious superiority to everything else on the market.
And it's definitely easier and more fun to dream, speculate, and argue about what should make up "the perfect Traveller" when there's new high quality material on store shelves than it was in the bad old post-GDW/IG days, when Traveller seemed headed for likely extinction (Ironically, for a company which was only in the Traveller-publishing business for the purpose of increasing the value of their movie-tie-in rights, each new shoddy that product IG released actually lessened the trademark's value, alienating existing fans and turning-off potential converts; all things considered it's surprising the name 'Traveller' retains as much cachet as it does: thank you CT reprints and Loren Wiseman!).
T^5 may very well appear someday, after the CT reprints are finished, and after GT and T20 have run their courses, and when that happens it'll be very unlikely to actually fulfill most/any of our ideals, but until that day T^5 doesn't exist 'only in the mind of Marc W. Miller,' it exists in the mind of everyone who's ever contemplated "the perfect Traveller," and, in all of our minds, it actually is Perfect.
(FWIW my personal Perfect Traveller consists mainly of MT, simplified occasionally to its CT roots, liberally sprinkled with bits of T4.1 playtest files and occasional doodads of my own invention, spread across numerous marked-up rulebooks, a handful of MS Word files, and my own imagination. And while I think it somewhat a shame that my house version isn't Official/Canonical, I also think that, as long as people are actually playing "Traveller" in some form or another, numerous competing/divergent homebrew systems are ultimately better than a single Official system of questionable quality (IMO: TNE, T4) -- since I'll never convince everybody to play My Way, let them all play their own ways. I'd rather learn/teach a few new rules every time I meet a new group of players than have everybody uniformly following the same (IMO) turkey, and nothing Ryan Dancey says can convince me otherwise.)
Gallowglass
SOC-12
I also think these comments about T5 are sadly probably true. Sadly because Traveller was orginally not the Universe, it was the system. And fond as I am of the OTU, I also want to see a new generic SF game and I think an update / revision of the Traveller rules (CT/MT/T4) could be that game. I don't think GURPS is upto the job and, for all its strong points, neither is d20.
Mår Ekkertsen
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gallowglass:
Sadly because Traveller was orginally not the Universe, it was the system.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
True indeed. I am one who played before the Traveller universe existed. We have this argument occasionally, is Traveller a system or the universe. I think that for good or evil Traveller is now the setting.
I'm not a game designer but has the state of the art brought us something that would jump the way Traveller did in the late 70s. Then Traveller was a 'different' way to do things. It was 3 books in a box like another famous game but character creation and setting (even then) is what set Traveller apart.
Today we have all kinds of mechanics to pick from, all kinds of character creation systems to pick from, all kinds of settings to pick from.
Is it the overabundance, the embarrassing wealth that keeps T^5 an idea still in its juices?
------------------
mark ayers n2s@qwest.net , philosopher serf, editor of n2s; the journal for an empty mind
Sadly because Traveller was orginally not the Universe, it was the system.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
True indeed. I am one who played before the Traveller universe existed. We have this argument occasionally, is Traveller a system or the universe. I think that for good or evil Traveller is now the setting.
I'm not a game designer but has the state of the art brought us something that would jump the way Traveller did in the late 70s. Then Traveller was a 'different' way to do things. It was 3 books in a box like another famous game but character creation and setting (even then) is what set Traveller apart.
Today we have all kinds of mechanics to pick from, all kinds of character creation systems to pick from, all kinds of settings to pick from.
Is it the overabundance, the embarrassing wealth that keeps T^5 an idea still in its juices?
------------------
mark ayers n2s@qwest.net , philosopher serf, editor of n2s; the journal for an empty mind
lucasdigital
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by n2s:
I'm not a game designer but has the state of the art brought us something that would jump the way Traveller did in the late 70s. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You hit the nail on the head there!
These discussions make me think of the reaction many Star Wars fans have given to the prequels.
The impact that made Star Wars 'significant' no longer exists. What was once unique and visionary is now reduced to (admittedly enjoyable) wallpaper.
Recapturing the spirit of Traveller at this stage in the industries maturity could be an equally tall order.
I may not be a fan of the T20 system but what impresses me about its development team is that they have taken the inititive and are not just waiting for some SF RPG Messiah to appear.
If T5 is going to fall down the same black hole that A.I (From the Digest Group) did then I would seriously consider creating my own SF rpg.
Mk
------------------
Mark Lucas
Lucas-digital.com
I'm not a game designer but has the state of the art brought us something that would jump the way Traveller did in the late 70s. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You hit the nail on the head there!
These discussions make me think of the reaction many Star Wars fans have given to the prequels.
The impact that made Star Wars 'significant' no longer exists. What was once unique and visionary is now reduced to (admittedly enjoyable) wallpaper.
Recapturing the spirit of Traveller at this stage in the industries maturity could be an equally tall order.
I may not be a fan of the T20 system but what impresses me about its development team is that they have taken the inititive and are not just waiting for some SF RPG Messiah to appear.
If T5 is going to fall down the same black hole that A.I (From the Digest Group) did then I would seriously consider creating my own SF rpg.
Mk
------------------
Mark Lucas
Lucas-digital.com
In order to get more Travellerish for my players, I went scrounging back to the old days, and recall having Asimov's Foundation series thrown at me. SO I am finally getting to read it.
Traveller is: a simply system, partially generic enough for Referees to adapt, that has a GREAT DEAL of respect for Science Fiction. Traveller meant Science fiction in ways that Fasa's Trek, TSR's Gamma World, FGU's Space Opera, and all the rest DID NOT. It felt like an Asimov book, played like Clarke and looked like Niven. It was easy, but you KNEW that the math was...THERE...in way. Does any of that make sense? You felt like Traveller should be sold in the Science Fiction section of the bookstore.
Gats'
(..and I am reading FOUNDATION! Yeah!)
Traveller is: a simply system, partially generic enough for Referees to adapt, that has a GREAT DEAL of respect for Science Fiction. Traveller meant Science fiction in ways that Fasa's Trek, TSR's Gamma World, FGU's Space Opera, and all the rest DID NOT. It felt like an Asimov book, played like Clarke and looked like Niven. It was easy, but you KNEW that the math was...THERE...in way. Does any of that make sense? You felt like Traveller should be sold in the Science Fiction section of the bookstore.
Gats'
(..and I am reading FOUNDATION! Yeah!)
lucasdigital
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Does any of that make sense? You felt like Traveller should be sold in the Science Fiction section of the bookstore.
Gats'
(..and I am reading FOUNDATION! Yeah!)[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes I agree. Traveller always looked like a mature product. At thirteen it was a game I was aspired to play.
I vaguely recall FOUNDATION, I should read the trilogy again to see if it has a greater effect on me twenty years on.
I strongly recommend Peter F Hamilton's Nights Dawn Trilogy. Its bang upto date SF, a little harder SF than Traveller but it does have all the traveller ingredients done in a very realistic modern way.
Mark
------------------
Mark Lucas
Lucas-digital.com
Gats'
(..and I am reading FOUNDATION! Yeah!)[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes I agree. Traveller always looked like a mature product. At thirteen it was a game I was aspired to play.
I vaguely recall FOUNDATION, I should read the trilogy again to see if it has a greater effect on me twenty years on.
I strongly recommend Peter F Hamilton's Nights Dawn Trilogy. Its bang upto date SF, a little harder SF than Traveller but it does have all the traveller ingredients done in a very realistic modern way.
Mark
------------------
Mark Lucas
Lucas-digital.com
Gallowglass
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gatsby:
Traveller is: a simply system, partially generic enough for Referees to adapt, that has a GREAT DEAL of respect for Science Fiction. Traveller meant Science fiction in ways that Fasa's Trek, TSR's Gamma World, FGU's Space Opera, and all the rest DID NOT. It felt like an Asimov book, played like Clarke and looked like Niven. It was easy, but you KNEW that the math was...THERE...in way. Does any of that make sense? You felt like Traveller should be sold in the Science Fiction section of the bookstore.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And that's why I'd like to see T5, because (fond as I am of CT/MT) there currently ISN'T an SF RPG game that has that feel or fundemental respect for literary SF.
As for Hamilton, there is a license begging to be exploited, especially as there is also the collection "A Second Chance at Eden" (? Books at home,title's soemthing like that) that charts the history to some extent.
Traveller is: a simply system, partially generic enough for Referees to adapt, that has a GREAT DEAL of respect for Science Fiction. Traveller meant Science fiction in ways that Fasa's Trek, TSR's Gamma World, FGU's Space Opera, and all the rest DID NOT. It felt like an Asimov book, played like Clarke and looked like Niven. It was easy, but you KNEW that the math was...THERE...in way. Does any of that make sense? You felt like Traveller should be sold in the Science Fiction section of the bookstore.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And that's why I'd like to see T5, because (fond as I am of CT/MT) there currently ISN'T an SF RPG game that has that feel or fundemental respect for literary SF.
As for Hamilton, there is a license begging to be exploited, especially as there is also the collection "A Second Chance at Eden" (? Books at home,title's soemthing like that) that charts the history to some extent.
lucasdigital
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gallowglass:
As for Hamilton, there is a license begging to be exploited, especially as there is also the collection "A Second Chance at Eden" (? Books at home,title's soemthing like that) that charts the history to some extent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats right!
Its a collect of short stories that were tweaked to give snap-shot views of how the 'Nights Dawn' universe came into being.
I did consider doing some work on a home spun RPG based on the books but it seemed like a awesome amount of work to put into something that I couldn't put on my website and give away to people or sell.
I'm slowly working on a game thats codenamed Distant Places. I think we will be waiting for Traveller 10 by the time I get that one finished ;-|
Mk
As for Hamilton, there is a license begging to be exploited, especially as there is also the collection "A Second Chance at Eden" (? Books at home,title's soemthing like that) that charts the history to some extent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats right!
Its a collect of short stories that were tweaked to give snap-shot views of how the 'Nights Dawn' universe came into being.
I did consider doing some work on a home spun RPG based on the books but it seemed like a awesome amount of work to put into something that I couldn't put on my website and give away to people or sell.
I'm slowly working on a game thats codenamed Distant Places. I think we will be waiting for Traveller 10 by the time I get that one finished ;-|
Mk
Well, Mark, as for playing Hamilton stuff- just do what we used to do in those halcyon LBB days: (if you haven't already done this) make your own CT supplement for your group. With word-processing so easy today, it's a blast!
Generate a subsector, add a few High Guard house rules, kit-bash a few numbers to make some Mercenary weapons and armor, adapt the character generation process to plug in some new skills, etc.
See? With all those 'How to design' charts of CT and all those well-thought-out-but-simple numbers for everything else (another hallmark of CT) - bingo, bango -
Ta-da! Another CT universe has arrived.
Awesome game...awesome game...
Gats'
Generate a subsector, add a few High Guard house rules, kit-bash a few numbers to make some Mercenary weapons and armor, adapt the character generation process to plug in some new skills, etc.
See? With all those 'How to design' charts of CT and all those well-thought-out-but-simple numbers for everything else (another hallmark of CT) - bingo, bango -
Ta-da! Another CT universe has arrived.
Awesome game...awesome game...
Gats'
Similar threads
