FTL Drives other than Jump Drive

[Blue Ghost]

Okay. Whipsnade and I had a good discussion regarding various things Traveller, and one of the things that came up was the possibility of drives other than Jump in traveller.

IIRC, which I may not, the big black Traveller book says something to the effect that Jump is a generic term used for all player situations involving intersteller travel. But, that Jump Drive has become the canonized OTU means of travelling between the stars.

Being this as it may, what other forms of FTL or intersteller travel might be introduced or otherwise thought of for Traveller?

Sub-dimensional tunnels? How about take a page out of DUNE and contemplate Fold Space? Star Treks' warp drive? Something else?

I throw the door open for friendly debate and brainstorming

 

[Supplement Four]

Being this as it may, what other forms of FTL or intersteller travel might be introduced or otherwise thought of for Traveller?

The usual. Stutter Warp, a la Traveller 2300 would work well.

If the Jump Drive works, then so could a Hyperdrive, a la Star Wars, where time spent in jump/hyperspace is variable.

Warp Drive, a la Star Trek, could work, given Traveller's excellent manipuation of the graviton. Warp Drives usually mean "Gravity Drives" that warp space around the ship. This is the way Trek's work (via power generated through anti-matter implosion), warping space around the ship, so that the ship never actually leaves real space. This is why they can receive messages and engaged in combat at warp speeds--they're just moving very fast in real space.

Don't forget Jump Gates, a la Babylon 5. Traveller could easily be impregnated with Gates left behind by the...Ancients!



Also, don't forget variations/restrictions on these. David Weber's Honor Harrington universe uses jump space and gravity manipulation, but with some restrictions.

Or, there's the Dune universe, where jump drives cannot be constructed on small vessels. These smaller ships have to dock with a larger, carrier ship. And, piloting that ship requires psionics, in Traveller terms. A human pilot is required to guide the ship on the instantaneous journey to the destination. And, range is almost unlimited--one can jump to another galaxy.

The limiting factor in the Dune universe is that one faction of people is in charge of jumping ships--The Spacing Guild. So, the power this guild holds is immense. Nobody jumps without the Guild's knowledge.

You can also use a variation where the range is different. In the original Battlestar Galactica, jump range was/is quite large. A ship could jump to another galaxy.



I think I've just scratched the surface, here.

 

[aramis]

S4: you're wrong about both Dune and HH.

Small ships in the dune universe can carry holtzman drives; the limit is the number of navigators. The Guild prefers a smaller number of large ships due to the expense of fully training (and spice-mutating) navigators. The no-ships are large, but not by Traveller standards, and are in both FH and BH/KSA's works; when equipped with automation, they can go without a navigator... but they violate the Butlerian Jyhad.
Navigators can apparently make rather long jumps quite safely... mechanical computers, only a handful of light years.

Honor Harrington uses a Keyhole drive, at least in the first 5 books. Extend the sails, to transit the warp point. (Keep in mind, Webber was also the line developer for Starfire, and the first five books look very much like relabelled starfire combats; ironically, more so than his starfire novels!)

BSG terminology is flaky; substitute System for Galaxy, and it works better....

 

[mike wightman]

Random thoughts.

T4 introduced a canonical ancient jumpgate network.

Controlled misjump drives are a holy grail of jump researchers.

Psionic teleportation over interstellar distances for very strong/technologically augmented psions?

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

Blue Ghost's original question immediately fractures into two seemingly similar, but actually very different, questions. The questions are different because of the assumptions within them.

Question #1: What is the possibility of drives other than jump in Traveller?

Question #2: What is the possibility of drives other than jump in The Official Traveller Universe?

I'd say the possible answers to #1 are nearly infinite, while the possible answers to #2 are very much constrained.


Regards,
Bill

 

[mike wightman]

Providing the other ftl methods are no faster than jump drives, cheaper than jump drives, or offer a military advantage over jump drives then other methods of ftl travel could be introduced without breaking the feel of the OTU.

It could be interesting for a Zhodani core expedition to run into a culute that uses some sort of jump gate network to get around - but the jump gates are built far outsystem so the travel time to the jump gate is longer than using a jump drive that sort of thing.

 

[atpollard]

Alternative ‘handwaves’ that exactly duplicate the effects of the Traveller Jump Drive are far less interesting than FTL travel that uses alternate game mechanics.

I liked the FTL Combat potential of the Honor Harrington novels and Star Trek.

I also liked the gaming potential of Wormholes/Jumpgates that offer a ‘shortcut’ between specific fixed locations.

While not O.T.U. material, it could make for some interesting IMTU material.

 

[rancke]

Question #2: What is the possibility of drives other than jump in The Official Traveller Universe?

I'd say the possible answers to #1 are nearly infinite, while the possible answers to #2 are very much constrained.

I've been toying with an alternate jump drive for the OTU that was inferior to jump-1 in performance (say, 1 month to travel one parsec), but also correspondingly cheaper. This would enable PCs to get a starship with less capital tied up in it, and the downside (much longer in-game transit times) wouldn't affect the players nearly as much (The difference being between the ref saying "You spend a week getting to you destination" and saying "You spend a month getting to your destination"). It would also facilitate gypsyish sub-cultures where every member from babies to pensioners lived on starships.

However, the requisite calculations and the neccessity to explore ramifications to avoid undesirable unintentional consequenses has so far deterred me from going any further with the idea.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

1) The thing to remember that for the longer jump drive you have to factor in life support costs. Longer trips may require less fuel, but that means more life support supplies and equipment. More food, O2, more space. The less effective drive you talk about would have to be cheaper by an order of magnitude or more, to be cost effective.

2) Longer range drives will change your potential star empires dramatically. COmmunications gets faster, and each star has more systems in range. This means militaries are more free to manuver, you lose choke points for trade and travel.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Taking the slow boat to Regina is an interesting concept.

 

[rancke]

1) The thing to remember that for the longer jump drive you have to factor in life support costs. Longer trips may require less fuel, but that means more life support supplies and equipment. More food, O2, more space. The less effective drive you talk about would have to be cheaper by an order of magnitude or more, to be cost effective.

As I said, I haven't explored the parameters. I don't really believe in the canonical life support figures, partly because I can't find the justification for that high cost, partly because if it really did cost Cr2000 to keep a crewman alive for 14 days, than it should only cost Cr1400 to keep a passenger alive for the 10 days he'd spend aboard the ship. At those prices there's a difference between 1400 and 2000 that would make a big difference to a free trader.

But be that as it may, the whole point of such an alternate drive would be to make the cost of ships an order of magnitude lower.

2) Longer range drives will change your potential star empires dramatically. COmmunications gets faster, and each star has more systems in range. This means militaries are more free to manuver, you lose choke points for trade and travel.

If the alternate drive takes a month to go one parsec, communications won't get faster.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

As I said, I haven't explored the parameters. I don't really believe in the canonical life support figures, partly because I can't find the justification for that high cost, partly because if it really did cost Cr2000 to keep a crewman alive for 14 days, than it should only cost Cr1400 to keep a passenger alive for the 10 days he'd spend aboard the ship. At those prices there's a difference between 1400 and 2000 that would make a big difference to a free trader.

But be that as it may, the whole point of such an alternate drive would be to make the cost of ships an order of magnitude lower.

I see that. I am just saying the cost of the drive and fuel would have to be far less to make up for the difference in increase in life support costs. Not just in money, but in space and power requirements.

If the alternate drive takes a month to go one parsec, communications won't get faster.

This was addressed more to another poster who had speculated on faster drives.

 

[mike wightman]

You could do away with ftl jump altogether for your slow boat.

Use a 1g engine for long enough and you get to such a high fraction of c that the passengers and crew can cross interstellar distances in months, while years go by in the real world.

If you can't stand the months the stl ship will take there are always alternatives - cold berth or drugs.

 

[rancke]

I see that. I am just saying the cost of the drive and fuel would have to be far less to make up for the difference in increase in life support costs. Not just in money, but in space and power requirements.

I can't figure out what it is that costs Cr1900 per fortnight in life support (the Cr100 is for food, of course) in normal starships, but whatever it is, I surmise that a bigger life support system would be able to cut down on that expense (Otherwise I suspect that orbital habitats would be impossible). If the alterdrive is a lot less expensive per dT, a ship could afford to install a big life support system instead of the amazingly expensive one that is the norm for standard starships.

This was addressed more to another poster who had speculated on faster drives.

Ah, yes. We're in complete agreement there. A faster stardrive would completely stuff up the OTU.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

I can't figure out what it is that costs Cr1900 per fortnight in life support (the Cr100 is for food, of course) in normal starships...

It's the very expensive anti-jumpspace radiation medicines that have to be continually pumped throughout the ship to keep people from contracting the dreaded Donotaskaboutit condition. While not a fatal condition, in the short term, it can lead to complications, depression, anxiety, and even worse...

 

[BlackBat242]

It's the very expensive anti-jumpspace radiation medicines that have to be continually pumped throughout the ship to keep people from contracting the dreaded Donotaskaboutit condition. While not a fatal condition, in the short term, it can lead to complications, depression, anxiety, and even worse...

Arthur Bertram Chandler's last work Frontier of the Dark (1984)

The Mannschenn Drive was the gateway to the stars, but it had one unfortunate side effect: Traveling faster than light, mankind reverted to the bestial form of his own legendary nightmare- the lycanthropic horror that the full moon once called forth from the soul's depths, now no longer howling at the moon but soaring far beyond it...

Sometimes the effect becomes permanent...




In my CTU, I have incorporated a lower-tech version of Jump, based on Andre Norton's hyper drive...

Speed available is constant... varying solely on the engine type installed.

Travel takes 14 days per parsec for standard engines, and 10 days per parsec for military/police-grade engines.

You stay in Hyper as long as you have fuel, or until you shut down the drive... no "precipitation mass" is needed... you can come out in the void between systems if you want.

Fuel consumption is 5% of ship's tonnage per parsec standard, 7% of ship's tonnage per parsec military/police.

Available at T.L. 9

Engine requires 5% of ship's tonnage standard, 7% military.

Cost is 4.0mcr per ton of drive.


The drive was developed in an isolated area colonized by "slow-ships" (cryogenic SLT) launched from Sol during the first Terran-Vilani war.

The Central government stopped all research into better drives, and by the time that government collapsed and the individual systems went their own way, all records of all drive research had been destroyed, and the principles of how the drive works had been erased from all science and technical records as well.

In those societies where these drives are in use, installation of a military/police grade drive in non-licensed hulls is punishable by confiscation of the ship and incarceration for 10+ years.

Then the first Scouts & Free Traders from the Vilani Imperium & Terran Confederation arrive, and everything changes!

(I delete the 2nd Imperium, extending the "luke-warm war" between Terra and Vland through that period).

 

[Peter Schutze]

>A faster stardrive would completely stuff up the OTU

depends. Why can't OTU jumpdrives be the most efficient compromise choice ? As long as the drawbacks all easily outweigh the OTU version they are likely to be niche-in-time solutions that get abandoned in favour of the OTU drives

what if:-
the drive can't be easily used inside a star's detectable gravity well (ie any orbit from system generation) but is 25% faster outside it ?
That way what you gain in jump speed you should easily lose in M-drive times ..... to keep x-boats competitive ........ since in-system comms at lightspeed will outrun the (ignorable) m-drive speed disadvantage .... perhaps there is significant E-M buildup that prevents reliable comms until the time advantage disipates ?

what if:-
its X% faster in jump space (eg 6 days not 7) but also bigger and more fuel hungry and suffers a few other limits eg price+50%, max 1000t and max jump-2 ?

or taken the other way .... its slower but allows .... safe jumps to 80 diametres or uses much less lanthanum so its significantly cheaper .... its enough smaller to cancel out extra life costs etc etc

 

[Whipsnade]

what if: (big snip of intriguing ideas)

Peter,

Very interesting takes, but they all have advantages that would still allow them to serve niche applications.

The "25% Faster Drive Outside All Orbits" drive would make for faster comm times because the j-drive vs. m-drive payoff you mention wouldn't occur. X-boats would never enter the systems they link, instead they'd enter and exit jump space well beyond all orbits while using comm lasers/masers to upload and download the message traffic. It may take roughly 5.5 hours for a laser to reach a waiting x-boat beyond Pluto, but a 25% jump speed increase would be would make the effort worth it.

(Of course, you realized that and added an "EM build-up" handwave to keep interstellar communication rates unchanged. If there's no change in comm speeds, why suggest a new drive at all?)

The "Faster, But Limited To Jump2" drive would have niche applications too, namely communications between systems 2 or fewer parsecs apart. The "Slower, But Jump Limits <100D" drive and the "Slower, But Uses Less Lanthanum" drive would also see uses in certain niches too.

That's the problem when we mull over the possibility of FTL drives other than standard jump drive in the Official Traveller Universe. Mike Wrightman pointed this out when he wrote:

"Providing the other ftl methods are no faster than jump drives, cheaper than jump drives, or offer a military advantage over jump drives then other methods of ftl travel could be introduced without breaking the feel of the OTU.

If you add "economic advantage" to Mike's "military advantage", the problem with alternate FTL drives in the Official Traveller Universe comes into focus. If any alternative FTL drive provided any military, economic, or political benefit over standard jump drive no matter how small we would have already seen it in the OTU. As it stands now, aside from two pseudo-canonical examples, we see the same jump drive from Yaskodray of -300,000 IE to the 4th Imperium of 1248. The Vargr, Hivers, and Solomani all developed variations of the standard drive and all junked those variations when they either were exposed to or developed the standard version. If any variation provided any benefit, someone would be using it.

That's why I firmly believe there are no alternate FTL drives in the OTU. What you do in your own TUs is your own business however.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

If any alternative FTL drive provided any military, economic, or political benefit over standard jump drive [no matter how small we would have already seen it in the OTU.

Of course we would. But that's not the issue. An alternate drive such as I proposed (with an economic advantage offset by longer transit times), or any other alternate drive that provided any advantage over the standard jump drive, would obviously have been mentioned before if it existed. It would have to be retconned in, if it was to become part of the OTU. The issue is, could such a retcon be done without drastically changing the universe, its history and current shape? I think that a drive such as I describe could be introduced without any macro changes. Whereas something that would, for example, increase the speed of communication could not.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

The issue is, could such a retcon be done without drastically changing the universe, its history and current shape? I think that a drive such as I describe could be introduced without any macro changes. Whereas something that would, for example, increase the speed of communication could not.

Hans,

Of course, whether the effects of the any retcon are minor or major will eventually be a GM's decision.

How much cheaper would your proposed drive be? Half? A third? A quarter? I'm guessing a quarter because the drive takes four times longer to travel a parsec than the standard jump drive.

Would your proposed drive be limited in range too? Only good for a parsec? Or could there be jump2, jump3, etc. versions too?

The reasons I'm asking this is that I immediately envisioned cheap battlerider tenders after reading your post. Spending a month in jump isn't that much of an inconvenience if you're moving lots of riders on the cheap.


Regards,
Bill