FTL Drives other than Jump Drive

[aramis]

Only if they let you piecemeal.

See, I use the passage coupon as a voucher; stub A is the passenger's, B is the captain's record, C is the chandler's, and D the cash voucher. That 2K is the chandlers no matter how much nor little is required for that coupon. (now, if careful, and not fully booked, one can sleaze a crewman or two that way.) You get 8KCr cash for a HP, and KCr6 cash for a MP, plus a 2 week LS block. Plus a requirement to stand certain inspections and provide certain standards for all passengers, and to charge no more than "standard fares" for any passenger when you accept even one coupon.

See, IMTU, they are issued by the IM of Trade, via the IISS, and the chandlers get reimbursed a fixed rate (KCr1800), and that 200 left over is admin fees. It's a form of price-fixing.

 

[rancke]

See, I use the passage coupon as a voucher; stub A is the passenger's, B is the captain's record, C is the chandler's, and D the cash voucher. That 2K is the chandlers no matter how much nor little is required for that coupon. (now, if careful, and not fully booked, one can sleaze a crewman or two that way.) You get 8KCr cash for a HP, and KCr6 cash for a MP, plus a 2 week LS block. Plus a requirement to stand certain inspections and provide certain standards for all passengers, and to charge no more than "standard fares" for any passenger when you accept even one coupon.

Well, if it works for you, it works for you. I really don't believe that the Imperium in the OTU is described as being so tightly controlled that something like that would work. Not to mention that the rules says that those are the cost everywhere in Charted Space (and in the universe next door too). Universal price fixing I don't believe in.

Three ships arrive at the starport. One took 10 passengers and crew for a 14 day charter cruise and is now down 1400 mandays of supplies. It will cost Cr20,000 to replenish life support. Since it is a charter, there are no passenger voucher stubs. Another took 14 passsenger and crew for a 10 day charter cruise and is now down 1400 mandays of supplies. It will cost Cr28,000 to replenish life support. The third came from another star and is down 1400 mandays of supplies, and how many passengers paid in cash for their passage is no-one's business but their own. So there are no vouchers there either. Guess that ship won't be able to buy any life support at all?

No, your explanation doesn't work for me any more than the original rules did.


Hans

 

[boomslang]

It wouldn't be a jump drive. Stutterwarp, warp drive, Mannschen drive, whatever.

As the subsequent debate suggests, a lot of it depends on the exact parameters involved.

A case study:

IMTU, I imported an alternative FTL idea I once discussed with Ed Messina for a Quadratic Drive, simply as a piece of background chrome.

It was conceived as a "first-generation" of Jump technology, and therefore was eventually recognized to contain an engineering flaw that was corrected to produce proper Jump drive as we know & love it -- this was due to an inadequate mathematical understanding of Jumpspace that originally resulted in a controlled, reproducible Misjump effect. A Q-drive consistently Jumped only one parsec (no matter how much fuel was pumped through it) and took a ballpark 2 weeks (2 times 150 to 175 hours) to complete the trip, but reliably delivered the starship to its destination coordinates on schedule nonetheless.

A TL9 device, a Q-drive cost half what a J-drive of the same displacement would cost, and did not require a computer to aim it -- it was tediously programmed manually, taking 1d6 days (DM minus Nav skill, but still with a minimum of 1 day) and relying upon a recent ephemeris, a huge log table, and some educated guesswork.

Once J-drive was invented a century or so later, Q-drive became obsolete overnight and was quickly relegated to hobbyists and museum pieces and the occasional historical re-enactment.

But, it had three important effects. The much-longer interstellar travel times of Q-drives motivated the development of low berth technology (which was on the verge of a 100% reliability breakthrough until J-drive came along and the key metabolic/pharmacological research was filed away and lost in an archive somewhere in all the excitement of High Passage travel now being feasible). The two-hops-a-month-if-you're-lucky speed made 4 weeks of powerplant fuel the default standard for starship operational safety, as it remains to the present era. And the retrospective realization that Q-drives were producing a predictable, reliable form of Misjump has driven obsessed scientists and experimenters to this day in their still-fruitless pursuit of some way to harness a 36-parsec Misjump usefully.

Cooking up something like that does not wreck the canon, and indeed, could even be used to (partially) account for parts of it... plus, it can be a real curveball to throw players when they stumble upon an ancient derelict spacecraft and try to salvage it, only to realize instead of being game-changing advanced technology, it is mysterious-backstory archaic technology...

 

[Blue Ghost]

A lot of interesting concepts here.

When I read the starship travel section umpteen years ago (I think I was in middle school) the book said something to the effect that Jump Drives worked pretty much the same way, and that no matter what you called your TU specific drive, or what milieu you were playing, the ruleset was essentially Jump Drive.

This always fascinated me, because it meant that the high profile TV and movie stuff, if you were so inclined to play it with the OTU rules, would all be using "jumpdrive" regardless of how the flavor fiction described it.

This is why I wondered what other permutations of "jump drive" could exist. In a sense it's all a moot point, because no matter what you call it, if the rules dictate that intersteller travel work a certain way, then you could call it whatever you want; i.e. Brand-X drive.

But, if your adventure calls for some unique transport, then there may be some wiggle room for an artifact or two... or three... of some alien technology that may be pertinent to the story. How the GM and players work with it is an entirely different question.

Thanks for chiming in

 

[Blue Ghost]

Addendum on Jump Gates;

An interesting concept. I'm reminded of the Buck Rogers "stargates" and of course Bab-5's jump gates that open into a new track of hyperspace. To me this seems adventure or campaign specific, though if the Mongoose types make it canon, then that opens up a world of new possibilities.

There are alternatives to jump gates. One of the reasons I opened this thread was to entertain Carl Sagans wormhole network, or a track of space that bores from point A to point B. This is a variation on the jumpgate concept, as a jumpgate opens up to another realm of space (an alternate space), the track concept, by implication, a "highway lane" of sorts. A private tunnel, if you will, which would not allow for FTL combat or combat in hyperspace as adventure spice, but may offer some other flavor for player groups.

There's also the teleportation notion. I think someone mentioned the psionic aspect from the basic books. Imagine, if you will, that science being applied to starship engineering. Maybe the Zhois pioneer the concept. How far could it go? How would it operate? Maybe it's only good for in system hops. Maybe not?

To me, for the OTU canon, I don't think replacing jumpdrive is a very good option. The rules are the rules, but for the sake of opening up adventuring venues (notably my writing endeavors) I think alternative FTL drives or abilities are worth contemplating.

 

[robject]

There are alternatives to jump gates. One of the reasons I opened this thread was to entertain Carl Sagans wormhole network, or a track of space that bores from point A to point B. This is a variation on the jumpgate concept, as a jumpgate opens up to another realm of space (an alternate space), the track concept, by implication, a "highway lane" of sorts. A private tunnel, if you will, which would not allow for FTL combat or combat in hyperspace as adventure spice, but may offer some other flavor for player groups.

Deep Space 9, sort of. Or Farscape. Or Stargate.

There's also the teleportation notion. I think someone mentioned the psionic aspect from the basic books. Imagine, if you will, that science being applied to starship engineering. Maybe the Zhois pioneer the concept. How far could it go? How would it operate? Maybe it's only good for in system hops. Maybe not?

That's worth examining. Take a ruleset and figure out how far a team of teeps can teleport a ship. Figure out what it would take to teleport a ship between stars.

In T4 (and less systematically in CT), psi points could be applied to increasing the duration, range, and target mass, based on range bands, mass orders of magnitude, or some sort of time scale. So a teep who could teleport another person 100m could spend 2 extra points to extend the range to maybe 1 km. It got expensive.

In T5, psi abilities are capability-oriented. A teep can focus her training narrowly onto one skill, and so can accomplish amazing things. Still, I don't think she can teleport across interstellar distances, although over a short period of time she can move a ship within a system with a batch of rapid-fire short-range teleports (the name for this is Stutterport).

 

[rancke]

ISTR that teleportation in Traveller takes place at lightspeed.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

ISTR that teleportation in Traveller takes place at lightspeed.


Hans

The way I recall it is "effectively instantaneous" and for the ranges allowed in CT light speed is certainly that

The big thing is the whole conservation of momentum deal. You think it's bad dealing with the rotational velocity and altitude differences when teleporting around on a world over 10s of kilometers without stumbling or igniting, try doing it with the velocity difference between planets in different orbits, never mind interstellar

So if you can get the range, you need to take serious steps to mitigate the effects, and as Hans notes, even then interstellar travel is still much slower than jump if you're restricted to light speed teleports. It is useful for short trips. Seems doubtful for long ones.

 

[robject]

The big thing is the whole conservation of momentum deal. You think it's bad dealing with the rotational velocity and altitude differences when teleporting around on a world over 10s of kilometers without stumbling or igniting, try doing it with the velocity difference between planets in different orbits, never mind interstellar

No problem, we'll just re-use the abso-freaking-lutely huge radiator fins that our starships already have in order to dissipate generated energy

 

[BetterThanLife]

The OTU has a teleport option for starships. It is in both CT and MT, but it is also somewhere in the neighborhood of TL 26 (IIRC). Pocket Universes required.

Mongoose converted Babylon 5 Jumpgates/Jump Point Generators to Mongoose Traveller, but was inconsistent in how it works. (Mongoose gave up its B5 license recently so this material will become more difficult to find.)

There are several issues with Jump Drive in Traveller.

First is that it is tied to both the Starship financing rules (As the single most expensive component of a starship) and starship revenue rules. (Severely limiting your ability to actually finance your ship at Jump numbers above 1 and standard carriage rates.)

Second issue is that it is pretty much limited to a flat (2D universe). As soon as you start generating 3D maps you run out of places you can go in a ship with low jump numbers but go screaming across the entire Imperium too fast at higher Jump Numbers.

Third issue is that in the OTU the pay per jump regardless of distance carriage model means that it is actually cheaper to get there faster than it is to get their slower. (The reverse of what you would expect.)

A variation on B5 Jump Gates (Primarily making them consistent) appears to be an easy way to deal with FTL travel and Traveller in a 3D Universe but I haven't worked out the balance issues yet. (Starship Finance, Starship expenses, Travel time, and Carriage Rates have to balance out for the system to work.)

 

[PathfinderAP]

Okay. Whipsnade and I had a good discussion regarding various things Traveller, and one of the things that came up was the possibility of drives other than Jump in traveller.

IIRC, which I may not, the big black Traveller book says something to the effect that Jump is a generic term used for all player situations involving intersteller travel. But, that Jump Drive has become the canonized OTU means of travelling between the stars.

Being this as it may, what other forms of FTL or intersteller travel might be introduced or otherwise thought of for Traveller?

Sub-dimensional tunnels? How about take a page out of DUNE and contemplate Fold Space? Star Treks' warp drive? Something else?

I throw the door open for friendly debate and brainstorming

S4 is right, if you can control gravity you can have a type of Warp Drive
(Try reading Alan Dean Foster's "Humanx" (or the gurps books) line it uses this type of drive)

I'm rebuilding my Traveller game (new), and in my version of the setting the Scouts are in charge of searching for and using wormholes, which are very rare, but allow ships to reach and explore areas of space well beyond the the current Jump Drive ranges, at least until the wormhole collapses (which can be predicted to a high degree)


Another could be a Teleporter Drive, based on PSI and the related tech,
you have either one or many PSI/Teleport powered people working with a PSI booster technology (the ship) and teleport the whole ship and crew, you could travel a vast distants in no time at all, the Zhodani could develop this, (and is in some ways similar to dunes space folding in effect)

 

[robject]

If you Slow/Cheap drive is the reason those odd SDB deployments occur, why don't we then see more military and economic applications? A Slow/Cheap drive would make moving pre-positioned fuel into various deep space gaps much more economical because fuel and other bulk items could be shipped at much less cost.

An expensive but likely path thru the Great Rift. Megacorporations and the XBoat network would ignore Corridor. So would Virus.

 

[PathfinderAP]

I also liked the gaming potential of Wormholes/Jumpgates that offer a ‘shortcut’ between specific fixed locations.

While not O.T.U. material, it could make for some interesting IMTU material.

Why wouldn't Wormholes be part of the OTU?
because its not covred by the rules? or becuase they don't exist in the OTU?

 

[far-trader]

Why wouldn't Wormholes be part of the OTU?

My first question would be natural or artificial?

If natural they'll be an exceedingly rare phenomenon.

If artificial... sounds like Jump drives to me

An option I've toyed with (and others I'm sure) is Ancients, or even just ancients. There was even a MT adventure (the Knight one?) that featured something like a wormhole/gate on a planet leading to another far far away. So a little less rare but still uncommon and hard to find.

The reason of course being it would change the OTU drastically if they were common or different from Jump drives.

Because its not covered by the rules? Or because they don't exist in the OTU?

Partly the first (see exceptions above). Mostly the second (for reason above).

Now for an ATU, by all means wormholes can be done, with the caveat that they will effect changes to the baseline presumptions of the OTU.

 

[PathfinderAP]

My first question would be natural or artificial?

If natural they'll be an exceedingly rare phenomenon..

Natural, and rare (as already mentioned)

If artificial... sounds like Jump drives to me .

No, alot more powerful, massive distance covered (maybe other galaxies etc)
A ranges that Jump Drives could never cover

Basically fresh new unexplored space, (when you have had Jump Drives for so long the borders to unexplored space gets futher and further away, it would take along time just to get to that known border,)

In my setting every Scout ship is equipped with automatic sensors and software to scan for wormholes when not in Jump space,
(this would be SOP)

With so many ships, active with so much traffic, its only a matter of time before one is found, (then kept secret, under a joint project with the Navy) they are then marked and given red zone status, the Scouts and Navy then deploy either a space station (if long term stable wormhole) or a fleet of capitol ships (if a short term wormhole)

The public never know, this is all top secret,

The reason of course being it would change the OTU drastically if they were common or different from Jump drives.

They are rare, and radically different from Jump drives, but only of limited use

Partly the first (see exceptions above). Mostly the second (for reason above).

Well I don't remember the rules for black holes or getting caught in a nova,
there are lots of things not covered in the rules (you can't cover everything)

But it does not mean it doesn't belong in the OTU, if the OTU is meant to be based on a realistic universe, it must be there somewhere

Now for an ATU, by all means wormholes can be done, with the caveat that they will effect changes to the baseline presumptions of the OTU.

Only if made common, which it can't, you can't create a wormhole, only find them,

 

[BetterThanLife]

Naturally Occurring Stable Wormholes? With both ends anchored somewhere useful and not out in the void? Now that is likely to be something excessively rare.

You would have to open it to traverse it, whatever those (game) mechanics are. (After finding both ends and ensuring they are stable.) Further you would have to learn how to traverse it, whatever those (game) mechanics are.

(Clearly unstable wormholes are to be avoided like Virus or a Plague Ship.)

Artificial Wormholes are in Traveller, sort of, they lead to/through Pocket Universes (A12 - Secrets of the Ancients). However they need Grandfather's permission to traverse and you are extremely unlikely to be able to find one much less open one on your own.

 

[BlackBat242]

Has anyone mentioned a psionic boost system... like in James H. Schmitz' The Witches of Karres [1966] (and the recent multi-author "tribute sequel" The Wizard of Karres)?

The Sheewash Drive.

 

[aramis]

Actually, the "what do you mean, it's stable?" situation is pretty easily done. Since jump drives are, shall we say, not entirely reliable... a misjump drops them off right at the detection range of the anomaly.

But they don't detect it. They do, however, spot a source of fuel near by it... refuel, prepare for jump, and when you jump from inside it's jump limit, rather than a dangerous jump, you instead get a wormhole opening... and about a 1G pul towards it...

*> Poof <*

"All the stars are wrong. Way off the charts. Wait, there's PSR B1509-58, and over there, PSR J1900-7951 over there, and PSR J1627-4706 over... there? WTF? Where the **** are we? And what's that cooling blue sphere we just got thrown from?"

Trigger the J1 for a nearby system, and poof... back where you started from...

 

[PathfinderAP]

Naturally Occurring Stable Wormholes? With both ends anchored somewhere useful and not out in the void? Now that is likely to be something excessively rare.

Stable in relation to wormholes? thats like asking "how long is a piece of string" and why not out in the void? (bound to happen, but still usefull for research, and if up against the clock would make an interesting game)

You would have to open it to traverse it, whatever those (game) mechanics are. (After finding both ends and ensuring they are stable.) Further you would have to learn how to traverse it, whatever those (game) mechanics are.

Well, was thinking of using some sort of gravity tech to try stabilize it for longer, and keep it open, or even widen it, (no real "game mechanics" needed for this (well unless you have the need for such, but it would be an easy thing to do if it was)

you then send probes through before a ship, as for traverse it, its a tunnel, normal M Drives should be fine

(Clearly unstable wormholes are to be avoided like Virus or a Plague Ship.)

Again thats all relative, and even a short lived wormhole can give needed data

Artificial Wormholes are in Traveller, sort of, they lead to/through Pocket Universes (A12 - Secrets of the Ancients). However they need Grandfather's permission to traverse and you are extremely unlikely to be able to find one much less open one on your own.

Yeah, well, so are tech 25 starships, but you don't see everyone zipping around in one now do you?

 

[PathfinderAP]

Has anyone mentioned a psionic boost system... like in James H. Schmitz' The Witches of Karres [1966] (and the recent multi-author "tribute sequel" The Wizard of Karres)?

The Sheewash Drive.

You mean something like this.....

Another could be a Teleporter Drive, based on PSI and the related tech,
you have either one or many PSI/Teleport powered people working with a PSI booster technology (the ship) and teleport the whole ship and crew, you could travel a vast distants in no time at all, the Zhodani could develop this, (and is in some ways similar to dunes space folding in effect)

Feels weird quoting myself