Foils, et al
- Thread starter Hemdian
- Start date
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Correction.
A sword cane ought to be a concealed rapier (cut and thrust blade), not a foil (thrust only, cannot cut).
Take it away, Captain Context (from yesteryear) ...
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Correction.
A sword cane ought to be a concealed rapier (cut and thrust blade), not a foil (thrust only, cannot cut).
Take it away, Captain Context (from yesteryear) ...
Actually, we shouldn't even be using the term "foil" at all, as a "foil" is a shorthand term for a practice or sporting blade, technically (i.e. the blade has been "foiled" so that it doesn't hurt anyone).
As you noted, the Longrapier was the original overlong and slender cut-and-thrust blade of the late Rennaissance, which evolved into the shorter Rapier by the 17th Century and then the Smallsword by the Late 17th-18th Century (which is really what the "foil" is representing as a sporting blade in its fencing style. The Epee is closer to the Rapier style of fencing, and the Sabre is more of the (historical 17th Century) Broadsword/Backsword/Cavalry-Sabre.
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I am not aware of a "BladeMaker" in T5 - I guess you would have to use "ThingMaker".
"Foil" (i.e. Rapier/Smallsword - see previous post) I believe did 1D in previous editions, whereas other blades did 2D (e.g. Dagger & "Blade" [= Dirk]) or 3D (e.g. "Cutlass"). "Sword" (e.g. = "Arming-Sword") got dropped from some later editions and variously did either 2D or 3D. What Traveller called a 'Broadsword" (doing 4D damage) was a hand-and-a-half sword like the historical Greatsword (NOT the two-handed Zweihander) and was utterly different from the historical weapon called a Broadsword (the one-handed basket-hilt weapon, like the Scottish Claymore - ~3D damage), which was "Broad" relative to the Rapier.
For T5, if you are willing to employ some DMs to damage, you may want to use 1D base damage for a sword-cane or smallsword and consider adding a +1 or +2 to the 1D base damage if that won't mess-up the T5 game mechanic (or perhaps import a modified version of the "boon" mechanic of MgT 2.0): Roll 2D and take the better of the two rolls as your 1D of damage.
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Dirk Le Daring
SOC-7
As listed in Supplement 4 Citizens of the Imperium, page 10.
Dagger 2D
Blade 2D
Foil 1D
Sword 2D
Cutlass 3D
Broadsword 4D
Bayonet 3D
Spear 2D
Halberd 3D
Pike 3D
Cudgel 2D
I hope this is of some use.
Same book, page 11....
Sling 2D
Short Bow 1D
Long Bow 2D
Sporting Cross 2D
Military Cross 3D
Repeating Cross 2D
Dagger 2D
Blade 2D
Foil 1D
Sword 2D
Cutlass 3D
Broadsword 4D
Bayonet 3D
Spear 2D
Halberd 3D
Pike 3D
Cudgel 2D
I hope this is of some use.
Same book, page 11....
Sling 2D
Short Bow 1D
Long Bow 2D
Sporting Cross 2D
Military Cross 3D
Repeating Cross 2D
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
This brings up an issue where certain kinds of armor are good at stopping a slash or even bullets, but not a stab from a shiv, ice pick or foil.
CT could probably be resolved with specific higher to hits with the foil against most armor short of plate, combat armor or battle dress.
For CT Striker I have intermediate armor like Kevlar have bullet stopping armor and a lower melee weapon value.
CT could probably be resolved with specific higher to hits with the foil against most armor short of plate, combat armor or battle dress.
For CT Striker I have intermediate armor like Kevlar have bullet stopping armor and a lower melee weapon value.
Hemdian
SOC-14 1K
So now I’m looking at all the damages. Something else odd is an unarmed fist does Blow-(=C1) … which is sort of 2D+ for Human characters. Yet in other versions of Traveller, it’s 1D damage.
Other melee weapons also seemed off. For example, a club does the same damage as a fist?
I’m thinking ("variant" damages):
Wait, let me rephrase …
If this makes sense, I'll try and add in the other items flagged up by Dirk Le Daring. But I wanted an initial reaction before going much farther.
(Also, there'll be some range differences between 'Small Blades' and 'Large Blades'.)
Other melee weapons also seemed off. For example, a club does the same damage as a fist?
I’m thinking ("variant" damages):
- A fist was 1D, so it should be Blow-1.
- Knuckledusters (not in the original list) might make a small difference … so roll fist damage and add 1 extra point.
- A club has a swing, so maybe double a fist (Blow-2).
- A mace is a club with pointy bits … so club damage plus Cuts-1.
- A vibro-blade is a knife+ … so it should do knife damage plus a little extra Pen damage.
- By the same logic, since a space axe is a vibro axe … it should do axe damage plus a little extra Pen damage.
- A trench knife is a combo knife and knuckleduster. It could damage as *either* weapon but not both simultaneously … so roll 1D and on even, damage as a knife, else damage as a knuckleduster.
Wait, let me rephrase …
| Category | Weapon or sub-category | Notes | Original T5 damage | New damage |
| Small Blades | Knife | incl. Dagger, Blade, Dirk, etc | Cuts-2 | Cuts-2 |
| Big Knife | incl. Machete, etc | Cuts-2, Pen-2 | Cuts-3 | |
| Trench Knife | Knife-sized | Cuts-2, Blow-1 | Roll 1D: Even=Cuts-2 Odd=Blow-1(+1) | |
| Vibro Blade | Knife-sized | Cuts-2 | Cuts-2, Pen-1 | |
| Large Blades | Small Sword | incl. Rapier, Bayonet, etc | Cuts-2 | Cuts-2 |
| Sword | incl. Cutlass | Cuts-2 | Cuts-3 | |
| Large Sword | aka Broadsword (but not really?) | Cuts-3 | Cuts-4 | |
| Other | Spear | Cuts-2 | Cuts-2 | |
| Pike | Cuts-2 | Cuts-3 | ||
| Halberd | - | Cuts-3 | ||
| Axe | Cuts-3 | Cuts-3 | ||
| Space Axe | aka Vibro Axe | Cuts-2, Pen-2 | Cuts-3, Pen-1 | |
| Fist | Blow-(=C1) | Blow-1 | ||
| Knuckleduster | - | Blow-1(+1) | ||
| Club | incl. Cudgel | Blow-(=C1) | Blow-2 | |
| Mace | Blow-2, Cuts-1 | Blow-2, Cuts-1 |
If this makes sense, I'll try and add in the other items flagged up by Dirk Le Daring. But I wanted an initial reaction before going much farther.
(Also, there'll be some range differences between 'Small Blades' and 'Large Blades'.)
Keep in mind you should make a distinction between "Bayonet (fixed)" and "Bayonet (hand)" for clarity. The former is more like a shortspear.
To follow up Dirk le Daring's table, perhaps the original damage values from CT'77 (which were NOT all whole-die damage values) might also be helpful:
As listed in CT'77: Book 1, page 43
Note how "Foil" (Rapier/Smallsword") and "Blade" (Dirk) are comparable, and both better than Dagger (cf Damage Ranges and Average). Rapier/Smallsword has a high minimum damage (greater than Blade/Dirk or Sword), but lesser maximum damage, and comparable average. It completely outclasses Dagger.
This is a place where the DM vs. Boon/Bane mechanic is significant, depending on what you want to do.
As listed in CT'77: Book 1, page 43
| Melee Weapon | Damage Dice | Damage Range | Average |
|---|---|---|---|
| Dagger | 2D-3 | 1-9 | 4 |
| Blade (Dirk) | 2D | 2-12 | 7 |
| Foil (Rapier/Smallsword) | 1D+4 | 5-10 | 7.5 |
| Sword (Arming Sword/Historic Broadsword) | 2D+1 | 3-13 | 8 |
| Cutlass | 2D+4 | 6-16 | 11 |
| Broadsword (Greatsword/Hand-and-a-half Longsword) | 4D | 4-24 | 14 |
| Bayonet (presumably fixed - not specified) | 3D | 3-18 | 10.5 |
| Spear | 2D+2 | 4-14 | 9 |
| Halberd | 3D | 3-18 | 10.5 |
| Pike | 3D | 3-18 | 10.5 |
| Cudgel | 2D | 2-12 | 7 |
| Club | 2D-3 | 1-9 | 4 |
Note how "Foil" (Rapier/Smallsword") and "Blade" (Dirk) are comparable, and both better than Dagger (cf Damage Ranges and Average). Rapier/Smallsword has a high minimum damage (greater than Blade/Dirk or Sword), but lesser maximum damage, and comparable average. It completely outclasses Dagger.
This is a place where the DM vs. Boon/Bane mechanic is significant, depending on what you want to do.
- Die Modifier (DM): A DM on damage will increase not only the average damage of a weapon, but also the minimum and maximum will be shifted upwards by an equal amount.
- Boon/Bane (Roll extra die and discount lowest/highest): A Boon/Bane die on damage will increase or decrease the average damage of a weapon but leave the maximum and minimum of the damage range unaffected.
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