OTU Only: Fleshing out the Extolay system (SM1711)

[Commander Truestar]

Hello folks,
I am looking to better flesh out this system
So far, I have a widely separated binary system(Harbinger and Pariah) with a class B starport which is a key communications link between Regina and Rhylanor, and a link in the Imperial "Shield Worlds" strategy from before the Fifth frontier War.

Because the world is tidally locked, the population of 103,000,000 live in the habitable zone around the world's circumference. With a thin atmo, folks can break at "sea level" but skyscrapers must have "sealed and pressurized" floors higher than 10 levels. This also makes pressurized outdoors gear on-world.

They system has both a high and down port, located above and in Extolay City, the world's capital. There are also Imperial naval/marine bases in-system supporting 312th (Extolay) Imperial Lift Infantry Division and an assigned CruRon to handle support of anti-piracy operations in the region. (Specifically where Tremous Dex is seen as a tortuga port before that system's entry to the Federation of Arden)

With the high population, limited habitable zone, low gravity and under an Impersonal Bureaucracy, I would expect life in-system to be broken into several layers:

1) Civil Service work - many integrated or even competing bureau structures, some of which may have almost become feudal in their interactions.

2) Work supporting interstellar traffic - Working for the port, for local or interstellar corporations, for trade lines, etc... Bringing supplies up from dirtside or in from foreign ports. Additionally, dealing with those coming in from outside the Imperium and supporting Imperial organizations in that role

3) Raw materials recovery/management - using the low gravity to their best, mining materials where they need to and harvesting it on the edge of the extreme cold and hot zones on world. Refining recovered ore into raw materials and transporting them to factory or market.

4) Support of Mega-Corporation operations on world (Only transport Corps are listed in the OTU but...)

5) Intra-economic manufacturing - factory creation of on-world goods for the use of the population and internal to the world's economy

6) Intra-economic communications and electronics

Given the above, and more I am sure others can suggest, I see the world as a place where the population are housed in "blocks" of wide-high rise and sealed apartment complexes. These "blocks" are placed around and between blocks reserved for manufacturing and what agricultural development is possible

The citizens are divided between:
1) those out of work and "on the dole", who may have become homeless and are found in corridors and plazas.

2) lower end working class living in small and cramped quarters where Civil service is a route out, even for the lesser educated. But it is not a "fast answer" where other economic opportunities may be faster but are less available

3) Improving classes and opportunities as economic status improves, almost as in a corporate structure/company-owned economy

4) Segregated public spaces and services based on economic strata served, with design and quality based on the intended target social sector

I see this leading to mostly in-structure activities with few significant activates being done outside. But, there would be an "adventure class" of sports and past times leading to local vid-celebrity as a "path to greatness" even for the extremely poor. Especially for the extremely poor.

Ships berthing in orbit would not care about conditions dirtside, however the downport would have to consider those. Service to ships not paying a premium for an "under cover" berth would suffer delays and other issues. So, paying for better berths will save a ship's master in the long run.


Can you reading this pick apart what I've posted and make recommendations were I may be wrong? Also, I am hoping for what you think live on world would look and feel like?

Thanks!

 

[Timerover51]

The UPP of Extolay in the Traveller Wikipedia is B55589A-A. Is this what you are using for the planetary characteristics?

Second, are you working off of the description of the planet in the Traveller Wikipedia as well? If so, are you considering the population to include on the order of 20 million Vargr?

 

[Commander Truestar]

The UPP of Extolay in the Traveller Wikipedia is B55589A-A. Is this what you are using for the planetary characteristics?

Hmm,
--Supplement 3 (GDW) has: B45589A-A N
and
--The Imperial Encyclopedia (GDW) has: B45589A-A 110 Im M2V M4D

Given that, and no changes made to that in the Errata, I am going with:
B45589A-A N G 110 Im M2 V M4 D

I do not know why the TravWiki has a world size of "5"?
Have I missed something?

Second, are you working off of the description of the planet in the Traveller Wikipedia as well? If so, are you considering the population to include on the order of 20 million Vargr?

No, and interesting.
The only published data I have is from the Adventure: "Into The Neutral Zone" by Zozer Games.

It states quite differently:
"Extolay is a dark, urbanized world, dominated by a post-industrial cyberpunk culture.
It is tidally locked and vast domes act as greenhouses, established in the twilight region
alongside the cities to feed the hungry millions.
Government is a police state run by a coalition of competing high tech corporations and
due to threats of cyber-terror and corporate warfare, the law level is extremely high."

Can you point me published to data describing the world as the Wiki does? I have been assuming the Wiki provided "Fan-based" data in opposition to the publication. Especially since the World Size stat was incorrect

 

[Timerover51]

Hmm,

Can you point me published to data describing the world as the Wiki does? I have been assuming the Wiki provided "Fan-based" data in opposition to the publication. Especially since the World Size stat was incorrect

As the Wiki article mentions the Domain of Deneb, it appears to be based on the Regency Sourcebook, put out by GDW for Traveller: The New Era. I do not know why or where the change in world size occurred.

As you appear to be using Classic data, I would go with that. Are you open to comments using T5.10 or are you looking strictly for Classic feedback?

 

[Grav_Moped]

Assuming you're working off the TravellerWorlds output, I'm noting a few odd things about the place.

ETA: you weren't. That said, the link above goes to the Traveller Worlds (world generation) site for Extolay. There's a link in the Travellermap drop-down menu on the left if you select the world on Travellermap. It's not quite canon, but it's consistent and usually close (the randomizer seed is taken from the UWP, so every run comes out the same for each world).

- The downport is in the middle of the hot side. Not really a great place for it... but at least the winds will be mostly updrafts and not crosswinds. It's also far enough north to maybe be tolerable.

- Cities mostly aren't located in the habitable region. Expect the ones near it to be large generalized urban centers; the ones in the frozen or baked zones are probably resource-extraction outposts. The latter will need environmental controls (climate, rather than atmosphere).

- There are rural hexes in the habitable zone, but not cities. Are these reserved as parkland? Do the farmers or ranchers or whatever have outsized political influence?

- As a general note (and you probably knew this), Extolay will be windy -- very windy. Low-altitude winds will be cold and dense and fast, toward the hot side. High-altitude winds will be relatively warm and flow toward the cold side. The twilight band will probably have severely stormy weather. (All of this is just guessing on general principles, and it'd be nice if someone with relevant knowledge could step in and share.)

 

[Commander Truestar]

As the Wiki article mentions the Domain of Deneb, it appears to be based on the Regency Sourcebook, put out by GDW for Traveller: The New Era. I do not know why or where the change in world size occurred.

As you appear to be using Classic data, I would go with that. Are you open to comments using T5.10 or are you looking strictly for Classic feedback?

Yes, I did center on CT-based data because that most agreed between items.
I admit I didn't check the "Domain of Deneb" SB because that was new era and, IMTU, Emerperor Strephon was not assassinated and the civil war/Virus never happened.

The Vargr immigrants seem also to be a product of that book

While I am pretty comfortable with the description I have, as far as what I have...I am hoping to improve the world-building based on that.

Suggestions such as what life is like on such a world.
I will be using a NASA-based "imagination" of what life could be like on a tidally locked world where the heat created on the hot face can be sufficient to cause things like metal rain. So, advanced Aero-collectors can fly into heat zones where open collectors can be filled with pure liquid metals (Note: the write up was based on an exoplanet in the Alpha Centauri B system)

I am certainly open to modifications from T5.x

 

[GypsyComet]

I do not know why the TravWiki has a world size of "5"?
Have I missed something?

There was an officially sanctioned adjustment of world sizes in the last ten years or so, to reduce the number of tiny worlds with breathable atmospheres, since there was so much noise from astronomers (both real and armchair) about how unreal those felt. You'll find most of those tiny worlds have either been stripped of their atmospheres or bumped up in size to be able to hold the rolled atmosphere, depending on how much published weight applied to each sector.

Changing Size in that range does not affect any Trade Codes, so it was the option chosen in the Marches.

I have been assuming the Wiki provided "Fan-based" data in opposition to the publication.

The wiki is an ever changing mixture of published "Canon" information and fan-driven details. Currently, efforts are under way to properly identify all sources of wiki text so the reader can make informed decisions about their own game, instead of the contradictory and unsourced mash found on too many pages. The effort is slow due to sheer page count.

 

[aramis]

As the Wiki article mentions the Domain of Deneb, it appears to be based on the Regency Sourcebook, put out by GDW for Traveller: The New Era. I do not know why or where the change in world size occurred.

As you appear to be using Classic data, I would go with that. Are you open to comments using T5.10 or are you looking strictly for Classic feedback?

During TNE, many UWPs were changed to actually be generatable. T5 has gone further along doing the same.

Many DD worlds were not generated, but merely statted by authors during CT and MT. Including many by Marc, in Sup 3.

 

[tjoneslo]

Hmm,
--Supplement 3 (GDW) has: B45589A-A N
and
--The Imperial Encyclopedia (GDW) has: B45589A-A 110 Im M2V M4D

Given that, and no changes made to that in the Errata, I am going with:
B45589A-A N G 110 Im M2 V M4 D

I do not know why the TravWiki has a world size of "5"?
Have I missed something?

The "Official" stats are published on the Traveller Map site Which has B55589A–A

The size change occurred during the T5 Second Survey review: https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/T5_Second_Survey

Specifically the physical parameter of the size vs atmosphere caused issues with the powers that be. A world of size 3 or 4 isn't large enough to hold a "thin" atmosphere. The decision was taken to increase the size of the world rather than make the atmosphere thinner.

 

[Commander Truestar]

GypsyComet & Aramis,

OK, thank you for that.
I generally assumed an increase in density for any world too small for the atmo it had. While I recognize the "outcry" from astronomers, I also note that most astronomers(real or armchair) would have claimed that Exoplanets were rare in the 1980's. And those same experts would have claimed that many of the Exoplanets we have now found are "Impossible" (It is rather comedic how often that word is used. I do not think it means what they think it does...hahahaha)

Still, when I was comparing data from different sources, it seemed that everything "except" the Wiki agreed (where I admittedly did not open the Deneb Domain SB). So, I said to myself that planets do not suddenly get fatter unless a catastrophic event occurred, and those suffering such an event never have an "increase" in population!

So, as I said, I went with an increase in density, which would mean an increase in heavy elements and make it a wonderful place for Mining. Increasing the density, and thereby, the gravity (and possible atmo details) falls better in line with "find a reason in science to make the data sensible rather than standardize it down to text book expectations". Especially when "current science" can be wrong. I once told Dr. Hawking he was wrong and it turned out I was right.(I still have that email)

Given a TL of "A", I don't see the sense in downport is in the middle of the hot side, or much of the placements given in the data from TravellerWorlds. I also find the government data "disappointing". Any central leader will have worked their way up the chain from "newly hired clerk" to middle management and then upper echelons. Yes, they could be old enough to be senile, but they also could be dynamic leaders who have learned, over the years, to "work the machine from within" and the the bureaucracy do what it should. So, the bureaucracy will be impersonal, with the lesser bureaus doing their work and providing for the citizens even while there could well be a vital and active central leader keeping the bureaus running and on track.
So, I am disappointed the site suggests the bureaucracy is impersonal "because" the leader is incompetent, senile or a military officer appointed for the duration of a crisis who just wants to get out of the job..

 

[tjoneslo]

A few things spring to mind

Given the above, and more I am sure others can suggest, I see the world as a place where the population are housed in "blocks" of wide-high rise and sealed apartment complexes. These "blocks" are placed around and between blocks reserved for manufacturing and what agricultural development is possible

The industrial and agricultural block should be on the Sunward side. The industry could take advantage of the "free" solar power, and the Ag business as well. Given that no one wants to live there it seems like a perfect place.

You would end up with the habitation blocks, along with some light industry and merchants along the twilight zone, and the heavy industry and the Ag sector blocks moving deeper into the day side, connected by rail systems.

The citizens are divided between:
1) those out of work and "on the dole", who may have become homeless and are found in corridors and plazas.
2) lower end working class living in small and cramped quarters where Civil service is a route out, even for the lesser educated. But it is not a "fast answer" where other economic opportunities may be faster but are less available

Given the apparent fragility of sealed environmental systems, having an unaccounted for load on system is a recipe for a disaster. As an economic cost savings (as disaster cleanup is expensive) the block environmental system is monitored and the government stages periodic sweeps of the blocks and assigns all the "unassigned" workers to a new block, where they can be given make-work, which pushes them from group 1 to group 2.

These new blocks would be built in the less promising places, say on the night side. If these people really do have jobs (on the day side), they face a long commute on the monorails back and forth across the twilight zone.

The other option is to use fusion generators to produce power to light up parts of the dark side, using that for agricultural purposes.

Other things: Extolay as a 50% hydograpics coverage. Where is the water?

You will need the water for the Ag sector (at minimum Industrial process also use huge quantities of water, as well as potable water for the population).

Water acts as both a heat sink and as a temperature moderator. So if you have a large sea across the terminator line, the day side will absorb heat, then be transported over to the night side to keep it warm even if dark.

So where your seas (or oceans) are may determine where the population is distributed.

Second question: The Extolay system is a Binary. Where is the companion located?

If the planet is tide locked to the primary the companion may be in an outer orbit and the dark side may not be as dark as you assumed, for some parts of the year.

 

[Commander Truestar]

A few things spring to mind
The industrial and agricultural block should be on the Sunward side. The industry could take advantage of the "free" solar power, and the Ag business as well. Given that no one wants to live there it seems like a perfect place.

You would end up with the habitation blocks, along with some light industry and merchants along the twilight zone, and the heavy industry and the Ag sector blocks moving deeper into the day side, connected by rail systems.

Thank you! Those are some good ideas

Given the apparent fragility of sealed environmental systems, having an unaccounted for load on system is a recipe for a disaster. As an economic cost savings (as disaster cleanup is expensive) the block environmental system is monitored and the government stages periodic sweeps of the blocks and assigns all the "unassigned" workers to a new block, where they can be given make-work, which pushes them from group 1 to group 2.

Rather than a general fragility, I expected a regular variance in quality regarding local construction. So, [using the unfortunate real-world example in Florida, USA] not all structures will degrade as they age, to a point where they will collapse, but some will due to either shoddy work or bad quality materials or both.

One other issue, again from the NASA data from AC-B, is that the world should be expected to be stressed and highly tectonically active. Part of this would lead to highly-buttressed underground levels .

I do like both the sweeps and the forced relocation/make-work centers. That lends itself to an adventure hook:
- Crew person gets into a scuffle and loses their ID - gets grabbed by law enforcement and over-worked team simply relocates the crew person with the others
- Now the Captain and remaining crew need to recover them, made more difficult as newly relocated people must be processed before they might be added to "the rolls"
- So those relocated won't be tracked "on the network" for some days as over-worked "social workers" have to get around to the missing crew person.
(and everyone relocated is claiming an excuse)

These new blocks would be built in the less promising places, say on the night side. If these people really do have jobs (on the day side), they face a long commute on the monorails back and forth across the twilight zone.

The other option is to use fusion generators to produce power to light up parts of the dark side, using that for agricultural purposes.

A mix of fusion and solar sounds obvious. Thank you for mentioning that! Don't know why I did not consider that up front?

Another good point of local color: if a citizen got grabbed by "the relocators" and lost their job, they might be arguing their case for compensation/re-instatement/etc... before a board while the players are making their way through some other official activity

Other things: Extolay as a 50% hydograpics coverage. Where is the water?

You will need the water for the Ag sector (at minimum Industrial process also use huge quantities of water, as well as potable water for the population).

That is handled because Hydro = standing water or ice.
As a result, I have an image (I don't know how to add it here) showing "ribbon seas" of standing water to either side of the circumference habitable zone. To the bright side, that is boiled away to dry and burnt terrain. To the dark side, that freezes into large ice-seas. Because of that, I have built in "raw material recovery" industry, including ice recovery/processing.
This is based largely on theorized ice recovery/processing which we(NASA) expect to carry out on the moon(from the southern pole ice pack) and on Mars(from ice expected to be found in sub-surface tunnels)

Water acts as both a heat sink and as a temperature moderator. So if you have a large sea across the terminator line, the day side will absorb heat, then be transported over to the night side to keep it warm even if dark.

So where your seas (or oceans) are may determine where the population is distributed.

Second question: The Extolay system is a Binary. Where is the companion located?

If the planet is tide locked to the primary the companion may be in an outer orbit and the dark side may not be as dark as you assumed, for some parts of the year.

Per the source material I used, "Into The Neutral Zone" by Zozer Games:
The binary partner, Pariah-M4 D, orbits the primary, Harbinger-M2 V, at 154 AU, so it contributes little to the inner system

Other details provided from the source material state are:
- Extolay is a dark, urbanized world, dominated by a post-industrial culture.
- It is tidally locked and vast domes act as greenhouses, established in the twilight region alongside the cities to feed the hungry millions.
- The government is viewed as a police state largely due to necessary safety restrictions, but benefitting a coalition of competing high tech corporations key to the on-world economy and survival

Thank you very much for helping prod my brain on this!

 

[Commander Truestar]

Another thing I need to add is that older and less affluent structures housing the working class and poor have degraded and tend to be run-down. They experience higher levels of criminal activity, and have given rise to organized criminal gangs that are an increasing issue for local law enforcement.

 

[kilemall]

I'd like to point out that as much as everyone loves them ag domes, high tech agriculture is likely to be less growing and more making.


In the same sense you might make vatmeat, in hostile enviornments there would be vatplants or maybe vatveggies.



Grown plants would still be desirable from a taste/texture perspective and only affordable for the upper classes, grown in a few high-end domes or imported.

 

[GypsyComet]

I generally assumed an increase in density for any world too small for the atmo it had. While I recognize the "outcry" from astronomers, I also note that most astronomers(real or armchair) would have claimed that Exoplanets were rare in the 1980's. And those same experts would have claimed that many of the Exoplanets we have now found are "Impossible" (It is rather comedic how often that word is used. I do not think it means what they think it does...hahahaha)

Yes, the Traveller world building system transitioned from "too weird" to "not nearly weird enough" without actually changing very much. Had they included "rains molten glass, sideways" in the options for Atmosphere C back in CT none of us would have taken it seriously.

 

[Commander Truestar]

I'd like to point out that as much as everyone loves them ag domes, high tech agriculture is likely to be less growing and more making.

In the same sense you might make vatmeat, in hostile enviornments there would be vatplants or maybe vatveggies.


Grown plants would still be desirable from a taste/texture perspective and only affordable for the upper classes, grown in a few high-end domes or imported.

I admit that vat-food is very likely, but you still need the raw materials to create vat materials. So, the bet is that where you are feeding more than 100 million on limited real estate, you will want to grow as much as you can in order to spend as little as possible importing it.

Additionally, the source for the bulk of my details, "Into The Neutral Zone" by Zozer Games, states:
"It is tidally locked and vast domes act as greenhouses, established in the twilight region
alongside the cities to feed the hungry millions."

So, an effort to grow food on-world is specifically stated

 

[tjoneslo]

Rather than a general fragility, I expected a regular variance in quality regarding local construction. So, [using the unfortunate real-world example in Florida, USA] not all structures will degrade as they age, to a point where they will collapse, but some will due to either shoddy work or bad quality materials or both.

One other issue, again from the NASA data from AC-B, is that the world should be expected to be stressed and highly tectonically active. Part of this would lead to highly-buttressed underground levels .

In this case I was thinking more of the environmental systems. If your air recycling system is overloaded and fails because there are too many people in the building, this causes problems on the scale of building collapse. The same could be said for the water / sewage systems. These are the things that would be monitored to make sure they are not too close to collapse. In some cases these system may be tied together across blocks, which may have a cascade effect.

 

[Commander Truestar]

In this case I was thinking more of the environmental systems. If your air recycling system is overloaded and fails because there are too many people in the building, this causes problems on the scale of building collapse. The same could be said for the water / sewage systems. These are the things that would be monitored to make sure they are not too close to collapse. In some cases these system may be tied together across blocks, which may have a cascade effect.

Do you then treat the life support systems of orbital ports and arcologies and starships the same way?

Unless I am misreading you, your point seems to suggest the sealed buildings, residential or commercial, are fragile. But these are the same systems as those found on a ship. While you can't overload a ship's life support, you can have gatherings while in port, etc...

Like any station in orbit or space, each building would have pressurization and oxygen/Carbon monoxide monitoring. At the same time, systems such as sewage and plumbing would be much easier to maintain that those systems aboard a starship or orbital station. Especially because the atmosphere is safely non-pressurized at sea level.

So, I am uncertain why you think the housing systems are fragile?

Yes, like apartment and commercial buildings in today's world, one would expect large "function rooms" which the residents or in-building workers can sign up to use. That way, they can have a party which requires larger space than their apartment/office provides. And, in the case of sealed floors, the systems supporting those rooms/facilities would be more robust than those supporting any specific apartment. But that would happen because of the larger expected population while they were in use.

And those larger rooms could have their services throttled back by the building Super/staff when they are not in use.

 

[Timerover51]

A few things to think about.

One: Per T5.10 BBB 3, page 90, a Thin surface atmosphere extends from whatever mean ground level is up to 500 meters, so 1600 feet or so. It should be noted that the same page has a Standard Atmosphere extending up to only 1000 meters, so that Denver would be a Thin atmosphere city by T5.10. Personally, I would go with 2000 meters for Standard to change to Thin, but that is what the rules say. So no need for pressurized living quarters unless at higher elevations.

Second: Just about all of the water is going to be in a BIG ice cap on the Dark Side of the planet. Any water which comes from the habitable zone into the Sun Side is not going to stay. The air coming from the habitable zone is going to be cooler than the air on the Sun Side, and therefore is going to warm up, and pick up more humidity along with the warming, so you are going to have desert conditions very quickly on the Sun Side. Think Southern California. For any agriculture on the Sun Side, you are going to have to pipe massive quantities in from the Dark Side, after first melting it.

Third: The planet's circumference is going to be at least 12,500 miles, with a habitable zone of uncertain width. If it is say, an average of 100 miles wide, that gives an inhabitable surface area of 1,250,000 square miles, of about 1/3 of the United States. I suspect that some of the area can be used for agricultural purposes, and the planet will likely be able to feed itself depending on the topography. You will not have any seasons, and those areas with direct daylight will have it continuously, which does drastically increase the growth rate.

 

[Condottiere]

Generally speaking, if life support is crucial, whether outerspace or dirtside, or twenty thousand leagues below the sea, you build in redundancy, if not resilience.

Of course, economic reasons tend to trump political ones.