Fixing T5 - SPECTACULAR SUCCESS

[Supplement Four]

Note: In posts #46-58 of THIS THREAD, I suggest a fix for T5's method of calculating Spectacular Success. I copy the idea here so that the idea can be discussed in it's own thread--one of my T5 Fix threads.



Problem: Page 136 of T5 describes Spectacular Success as occuring when three ones are thrown on Difficult or harder tasks (3D or more dice for difficulty).

The first issue is that Spectacular Success is not possible on the easiest of tasks (Easy and Average tasks). Why? If the task is easy, isn't it logical that it should be easier to throw Spectacular Success on that level of task?

The next issue with the rule as written is that Spectacular Success becomes easier the harder the task becomes. It's much easier to throw three ones on a Beyond Impossible 8D difficulty task than it is to throw three ones on a 3D Difficult task. Isn't this completely backwards? Shouldn't it be harder to throw SS as the task itself gets harder?









Solution: Change the rule that indicates SS has occurred. Instead, use a target number to indicate that a Spectacular Success has been achieved.

Spectacular Success < Skill + Difficulty​

Add skill to the die code of the task's difficulty. If the result of the throw is equal to or less than this number, then Spectacular Success has occurred.









Example: Let's use the example for SS straight out of the T5 rulebook.

Pg. 136 of T5

Citizen computer technician Charles "Buzz" Van Sickle 596B77 Computer-3 is hired for a routine but Difficult (3D) computer search at a local factory that happens to be next door to a clandestine Imperial Communications Monitor.

OK, so the task is...



To retrieve the selected information
Difficult (3D)<(Computer + EDU)
SS means the search returns the planetary communications grid master system password.



So, Buzz is throwing 3D for 10 or less.
SS happens if the roll is 6 or less (Computer-3 plus 3D Difficulty).

Failure happens if the roll is 11-18.
Success happens if the roll is 7-10.

*Spectacular Success happens if the roll is 3-6









Spectacular Success is tied to Skill: Using this fix, Spectacular Success becomes easier for the more skilled characters. Doesn't it make sense that the highly skilled will throw SS more often?

Consider the example above. That character has a 50% chance of success in rolling 10 or less on 3D. And, he's got a 9% shot at throwing Spectacular Success--his result would have to be 6 or less.

Take the exact same character, but reduce his skill to Computer-1 and see how it effects the chance at Spectacular Success.

The task would now succeed on a throw of 8 or less, but the task difficulty would grow to 4D because of the This Is Hard rule. That means that Spectacular Success would happen on a throw of 5 or less.

Thus, the character with the lowered Computer skill would have a 5% chance of success on the task overall and a less than 1% chance to achieve Spectacular Success.



Let's take the This Is Hard rule out of the mix in order to just focus on the effects of my SS tweak.

Use the same example from above, but lower the difficulty to 2D. The Computer-3 character would succeed on a throw of 10 or less, and SS would occur if the throw is 5 or less.

That means the Computer-3 character has a 92% chance of success on the task and a 28% chance of making Spectacular Success.

Now, reduce the same character by one skill level. Make him Computer-2. The This Is Hard rule is not activated, and now, the character needs a 9 or less on 2D to succeed at the task. If he rolls 4 or less, he's rolled Spectacular Success.

That's a 83% chance of success on the task, and a 17% chance of rolling Spectacular Success.

See the influence of the character's expertise--his skill?

 

[Supplement Four]

Why didn't I address Spectacular Failure?



Because the rule is good as written. It's logical that Easy and Average tasks are so easy that Spectacular Failure isn't even an option.

With the T5 rule, as written, SF occurs when three sixes are thrown on a task.

It's logical that Spectacular Failure results becomes more and more likely as the task gets harder (it's much easier to throw three sixes on 8D Beyond Impossible tasks than it is on a 3D Difficult task).

 

[Supplement Four]

Two Red Dice Method

If you don't like what I've proposed above, here's another idea that will fix the problem with T5 SS.



- TWO RED DICE METHOD -

When you roll a task, use two different colored dice from the rest. For example, if making a 4D check, use two red dice and two white dice.

Throw the task normally, but notice the result on just the two red dice. If snake-eyes appear on these dice, then Spectacular Success has been achieved.




Notes--

1. No math! Just check the two red dice. Are they snake eyes? If yes, you've got SS. If no, then you can ignore the color and count all the dice nomrally for the task.

2. This ensures that the probability of SS is 2.7% no matter the difficulty.

3. Refs can allow SS on Average (2D) tasks using this method, as both dice will be red.

4. If the Ref wants a lower probability of SS, use three red dice. But, also be aware that this lowers the chance of SS to lower than half a percent (one-in-two hundred).

5. If the Ref wants a chance of SS on Easy tasks, then only use one red die. Know that the chance of SS will be 16.67%.

6. Not every task needs to be elligible for SS. A Ref can indicated if a task is a "Spectacular" task by indicated if the red dice are used. If SS is not possible, then the red dice are not used on the task throw.

 

[Draconian]

- TWO RED DICE METHOD -

When you roll a task, use two different colored dice from the rest. For example, if making a 4D check, use two red dice and two white dice.

Throw the task normally, but notice the result on just the two red dice. If snake-eyes appear on these dice, then Spectacular Success has been achieved.

Are you planning to apply that rule without reference to whether the overall roll comes under the Target Number=Characteristic+Skill+Knowledge, or conditional to it? One way, it will give you a constant 1/36th odds (since those red dice appear to be independent of anything else happening), another way, it will cut out chances at the higher difficulties.

No time for extensive number-crunching right now. Maybe if I want to blow my whole week-end I'll do it!

I suspect you're a shill for Marc Miller's Multi-Coloured Traveller Dice Shop! So far, different colours are only needed as a convenience for Flux rolls, but you are expanding the market in River City. :rofl:

 

[Supplement Four]

Are you planning to apply that rule without reference to whether the overall roll comes under the Target Number=Characteristic+Skill+Knowledge, or conditional to it?

I think so. The two red dice are counted as part of the difficulty, but also looked at separtely, giving a 2.7% chance for SS, no matter what difficulty was thrown.

On a 5D throw, two red and three white dice are thrown. The player throws the dice. First, he looks to see if the two red dice are snake-eyes. If not, then he counts them and the white dice normally for the task.

 

[Supplement Four]

I wrote out this example showing how the current T5 SS rule is broken, so I thought I'd also record it here (as the example, I think, is pretty illuminating).



You've got two player characters. Both have stats 777777. Both characters have been captured by bad guys.

When they were captured in the game, one of the characters attempted immediate escape, so the guards put some magna-cuffs on him. We'll call him Ziip.

The other character, Aloe, has his hands free.

Both characters are put into storage rooms with heavy doors that the bad guys are using as prisoner cells. The doors have simple keypad that opens and locks them. Once the guards are gone, both characters study the electronic locks. The Ref tells them that, since the room is meant as a storage facility and not a prison, getting the cover and keypad to come apart from the door will be an effort. But, after some time and some raw finger tips (and maybe some torn fingernails), the lock's circuitry is exposed.

Both characters have Electronics-1.

The Ref decides that, for Aloe, who has his hands free and can face the lock, that the character can hotwire the door with a successful Formidable Electronics roll.

The TiH rule kicks in, and this becomes a 5D, Staggering, task.

Aloe can succeed on this task in two ways. He can roll 8- on 5D, which is a less than 1% chance of success. Or, he can roll Spectacular Success by rolling three ones on his 5D. That's a 3.5% chance.





For Ziip, the Ref decides that it is an Impossible task for the character to get off the cover and re-wire the lock to get the door open. The lock is about a foot above Ziip's waist, and Ziip's arms are locked behind his back with the magna-cuffs. He can't see what he's doing. This is why the Ref justifies an 8D Impossible task.

The TiH rule kicks in again, and it becomes a 9D Beyond Impossible task.

Ziip can only succeed on this task if he rolls three ones for Spectacular Success. And, he's got a 16% chance to do so!





Let's say the player playing Ziip doesn't know the odds, and in an effort to better his position on the lock, he slips his legs through his arms so that his cuffed hands are in front of him, now. At least, the player thinks, Ziip can now see what he's doing.

So, the Ref lowers the task for this. He's generous and makes the task Staggering (5D). The TiH rule kicks in, making this a 6D task for the hand-cuffed character.

Ziip can succeed now in one of two ways. He can roll 8- on 6D, which is a less than 1% chance of probability. Or, he can hope for Spectacular Success, which is a 6% chance of success.

Here's the kicker: Zipp actually cuts his chances by more than HALF by improving his position on the lock so that he can see it!





Given these three circumstances, logic would tell you that Aloe should have the best chance of success. Followed by Ziip with hands in front. Followed by Ziip with hands in back.

But, the EXACT OPPOSITE IS TRUE!

Ziip, hands in back has an 16% chance of success. (over double the chance of hand in front and four times Aloe)

Ziip, hands in front, has a 6% chance of success. (double Aloe)

Aloe has a 3.5% chance of success.



DOES THAT REALLY SEEM RIGHT TO YOU?





Let's go one more step....

A third PC prisoner was taken. He also has stats 777777, but he's got Electronics-3.

The Ref gives this character, Cato, the same task that the gave to Aloe. It's a 4D Formidable task to re-wire the door.

Cato has a 16% chance of success.

THAT'S RIGHT!! CATO, WITH ELECTRONICS-3, THE MOST SKILLED OF ANY OF THE THREE CHARACTERS, HAS THE SAME CHANCE AT RE-WIRING THE DOOR AS ZIIP, WHO CAN'T SEE THE LOCK AND HAS HIS HANDS BEHIND HIS BACK!!!

 

[Supplement Four]

Here's a GENERAL RULE OF THUMB for T5 Players.

If your target number is close to the number of difficulty dice, you are almost always better off by making the task harder and hoping for three ones and a Spectacular Success result.

 

[atpollard]

Spectacular Success < Skill + Difficulty​

I like this ... simple and elegant.

 

[andycowley]

Here's a GENERAL RULE OF THUMB for T5 Players.

If your target number is close to the number of difficulty dice, you are almost always better off by making the task harder and hoping for three ones and a Spectacular Success result.

__________________

...but that's where a good referee will step in a stamp out this kind of min/max munchkin nonsense

...note that in your example I would personally interpret SS for the two characters differently ... in the first case opening the lock is the obvious SS result ... but in the second case the SS result could be something else which, while helpful, is not actually opening the lock (like , while failing to open the lock, he accidentally shorts out the magna cuffs on the keyboards power supply and gets his hands free)

 

[Supplement Four]

...note that in your example I would personally interpret SS for the two characters differently ... in the first case opening the lock is the obvious SS result ... but in the second case the SS result could be something else which, while helpful, is not actually opening the lock (like , while failing to open the lock, he accidentally shorts out the magna cuffs on the keyboards power supply and gets his hands free)

That's up to the Ref, of course. I'm just trying to illustrate how ludicrous the SS rule in T5 is--it's crazy that a character with a level 3 skill has the same chance as a character with level 1 skill and hands tied behind his back. Skill 3 should not equal blind luck.

And the character Ziip should not have a lower chance of success if he figures a way to slip his legs through his arms so that he can see what he's doing.



Any way you slice it, SS in T5 is broken.