Fiefs...

[Hal]

Hello Folks,
I started to run (and quickly killed for reasons I won't go into here) a Traveller campaign where the player was running a speculative trade captain who owned controlling shares in a speculative Trade corporation (was using the GURPS FAR TRADER rules for initial stock offerings and the like). Long story short...

The player got involved with a woman who owned a swanky fashion designer boutique, who specialized in really exquisite designs. Her father? A Baron of Adabicci. His "hobby" was firearms manufacture and modification - as well as shooting. In any event, that's not what/why I'm posting this.

Just as the starport has its extraterritoriality rules, what rules apply to that of the fief? Is it considered to be Imperial held lands subject to the laws of the Capital as if it were Imperial soil, or is it subject to the laws of the planet itself?

Second question:
If people are citizens/subjects of the world they are born upon, what is the status of someone who is born within the confines of a Baron's fief? Is the person who is born within the Baron's fief, truly an "Imperial citizen", or is he a subject/citizen of the world he is born upon?

Third Question:
What is the status of someone who is born of a parent who is a subject/citizen of one world, and whose other parent is a citizen/subject of another?

All of this talk about who holds what fief and whether a fief can be lost or what have you... What isthe basis for this? Are "titles" transferable or inheritable within the Imperium? If not, then what is the point of being an honor noble versus a standard noble if the ownership of any given fief is transitory? More importantly? Why is there a nobility track if parents can lose a particular fief?

Just loose random thoughts perculating through my mind at nearly 2 AM in the morning

 

[Bloo]

1) I don't know if there is a clear answer in canon. I would treat physical fiefs as extraterritorial.

2) Realistically, this would vary by each system's local laws and whether the fief is extraterritorial or not.

3) Should vary by system's local laws.

There are two very general approaches to nationality:
1) By the blood (jus sanguinis), and
2) By the soil (jus soli).

For the first, there are many variables in how countries treat it. Both parents, one parent, number of generations (from 1 to infinite), etc. For instance, if you have one Irish grandparent that was born on the Ireland, you can get Irish citizenship. If you're the child of such a person, if your parent did the paper work before you were born, you can get it too. My understanding is that if you can prove descent from a member of the Cherokee nation listed in the Dawes rolls of 1907, without regard to how many generations, you can get Cherokee citizenship.

For the second, which some systems might extend to jus stella ("by the star"), you just have to prove birth in the relevant area.

And don't forget the 'flag' of starships. Generally, a ship is territory of the nation's flag it flies (though there are a lot of rules I'm not aware of on how that is handled in the real world now). For Traveller, that would be comparable to a Federation of Arden ship within Imperial space.

Consequences of this include multiple citizenships and the possibility of stateless persons. In the latter, you could end up with people who live in the Imperial jurisdiction Starport/startown, but can't leave it, and can't afford to fly somewhere else. And a system can always changes its rules.

Born on an Imperial ship, to a mother whose identity is unknowable for some reason while in jump space? Probably a citizen of the Imperium but nowhere else - no home system.

 

[Hal]

That is primarily why I was asking all of those questions. EXIT VISA indicated that a planetary government had the right to deny an offworlder the right to leave the world. New York State doesn't deny citizens of Pennsylvania the right to exit or enter through its borders, but it does have issues with people from another nation entering its borders illegally (as of when Ellis Island was a major stopping place for immigrants that is).

A long time idea has been buzzing in my head about who is or is not considered to be an Imperial Citizen based on what appears at first blush, a confederacy of worlds with a feudal governmant as its nominal overriding "elites".

In the end, it seems to me that those who live in a fief area, or work in a star port are either "hires" who are nominally citizens of their birth worlds or worlds by adoption - or they are Imperials, whose listed citizenship would be that of the home world itself. As a consequence of this thinking, I'm also thinking that by definition, a noble who holds land on other worlds (aka fief) is also an Imperial Citizen.

What are the consequences of this line of thinking? Nobles live by the laws of Capital and are required to abide by those laws within their demense. Once they leave their lands, they are subject to the laws of the world itself. If they purchase lands under the laws of the planet, their purchased lands are NOT imperial sanctioned lands, but instead, local land that belongs to them regardless of whether they are Imperial Nobles or not. They'd owe taxes on those purchased lands etc.

In all, it appears that one can't really be an imperial citizen unless the GM makes some form of provision for it. Yet - with fiefs, one wonders just what the status is of those who are born in/on those lands deemed to be a fief. If it is an industrial area, does that question even rear its ugly head? And who is obligated to enforce the peace (aka the police force) in such an area?

Then we get into the issue of how can a noble afford to field his own huscarles if he doesn't have the means of income to do so based upon his fief?

Eventually, I will get my copy of T5 in both PDF format and book format, and then I'll be able to dive into this stuff in more detail. I'm guessing that I won't be able to get the full scoop on those things I want for my Traveller Spinwards Marches campaign, and will have to fill in the details myself. But, that's what the role/task of the Referee is - and the joy of doing all that stuff is supposed to be part and parcel of the whole thing

 

[GypsyComet]

Nobles live by the laws of Capital and are required to abide by those laws within their demense. Once they leave their lands, they are subject to the laws of the world itself. If they purchase lands under the laws of the planet, their purchased lands are NOT imperial sanctioned lands, but instead, local land that belongs to them regardless of whether they are Imperial Nobles or not. They'd owe taxes on those purchased lands etc.

As a general guide, this is about right. Specific worlds and specific ranks (or awards) of nobility will see some exceptions. Most landed Nobles (ie. the Baron OF a world, as opposed to Barons who happen to be FROM a world) will have their security forces be defined by local law as allowed to carry in excess of law level, and some Orders of Knighthood may incorporate that right at a personal level. Do something stupid and the local law *may* have jurisdiction, but it may also find itself short-circuited by an Imperial Warrant. Worlds that flout *that* are begging for a friendly visit by a few (hundred) Marines.

In practice many worlds are fairly cosmopolitan when it comes to the Imperium around them. The low Pop worlds thrive under its protection and typically have a higher percentage of "traveled" populace, while many higher Pop worlds depend on import and export for their thriving economies. Every world is different, obviously, but in general Imperial Nobles are either local or visiting dignitaries and are treated as such.

 

[djwildstar]

Hal,

I'm going to put a very heavy IMTU disclaimer on this, because I'm a huge heretic on the subject of citizenship, sophonts' rights, and the distinctions between Imperial and planetary law in Traveller.

Just as the starport has its extraterritoriality rules, what rules apply to that of the fief? Is it considered to be Imperial held lands subject to the laws of the Capital as if it were Imperial soil, or is it subject to the laws of the planet itself?

There are many possible circumstances here that might make things unique. For example, in some cases the fief may be located inside the starport's extraterritoriality line, which would make it except from local law. Alternatively, the noble could have a function in the world's government (or might even be the world government), in which case their fief may have special status. But as a broad generalization, and assuming that no special cases apply, IMTU a noble's fief that is located on a world is subject whatever laws that world's government might make - it is merely a plot of real estate. However, local laws that are not aligned with Imperial law are unenforceable against Imperial Nobility (which includes anyone holding a knighthood or above and their immediate family), or authorized representatives of a high (typically baron or above) Imperial Noble who are conducting Imperial business. Just like the starport's extraterritoriality, this concession to the Imperium is a condition of and codified in the world's treaty of admission to the Imperium.

So, for example, the religious dictatorship of Arglebargle X may pass a law that requires residents to publicly swear allegiance to the Grand High Poobah upon first leaving their abode each morning, on pain of public execution by the Poobah's Morality Police. Individuals residing on an Imperial Noble's fief on Arglebargle X must obey this law. However, Arglebargle X may not enforce this law (or any other laws that are not also Imperial law) against the Duchess of Foobar when she is visiting. Should they try to put the duchess to death, the Emperor (and his representatives, the Nobility) may take whatever steps they feel are necessary to prevent or right this wrong. SO Morality Police that attempt to arrest the duchess may find themselves staring down the barrels of the "ceremonial" fusion rifles carried by the duchess's honor guard. Note that the "authorized representatives who are conducting Imperial business" allows the duchess's honor guard to effectively bypass local law level.

Also IMTU, local laws that are not aligned with Imperial law may or may not be enforceable against Imperial Citizens. Imperial Citizens are individuals that have been granted that right by the Emperor or his representative, usually in recognition of years of loyal service (typically honorably-discharged Navy, Marine, or Scout veterans). Imperial Citizens who are convicted under local law may appeal to the Imperial Consul, who may (or may not) choose to intervene. SO, an ex-Navy veteran who is an Imperial Citizen might also be arrested by the Morality Police for failing to swear allegiance. While he or she can appeal to the Imperial Consul, in practice, the Imperial Citizen might well be executed before the Consul acts. The veteran's best bet may be to evade arrest (or stage a jailbreak) followed by a sprint to the starport's extraterritoriality line.

If people are citizens/subjects of the world they are born upon, what is the status of someone who is born within the confines of a Baron's fief? Is the person who is born within the Baron's fief, truly an "Imperial citizen", or is he a subject/citizen of the world he is born upon?

IMTU, people who are born within the confines of a Baron's fief are subjects of the world, just like anyone born anywhere else on the world, UNLESS they happen to be the child of the Baron or someone else who holds a patent of nobility from the Iridium Throne (members of the immediate family of an Imperial Noble are considered Imperial Nobility). Imperial Citizenship is separate from nobility, and typically must be earned through service to the Emperor.

What is the status of someone who is born of a parent who is a subject/citizen of one world, and whose other parent is a citizen/subject of another?

IMTU, everyone who isn't Imperial Nobility or an Imperial Citizen is the de-facto subject of whatever world that they happen to be standing on. These individuals may have claims to citizenship on different worlds, but this claim is useless unless the world that they are standing on recognizes that claim to citizenship and grants specific rights based on it.

So in your specific instance, a child born to two individuals who are citizens of two different worlds (and neither of whom are Imperial Nobles), may be a citizen of either of the two worlds, both worlds, or none at all. Regardless, that child will be subject to the laws of the world that they are born on, until they leave.

All of this talk about who holds what fief and whether a fief can be lost or what have you... What isthe basis for this? Are "titles" transferable or inheritable within the Imperium? If not, then what is the point of being an honor noble versus a standard noble if the ownership of any given fief is transitory? More importantly? Why is there a nobility track if parents can lose a particular fief?

IMTU, there are two distinct types of nobility - "honor patents" and "precarious tenure". Knighthoods are different, but behave basically the same way that honor patents do.

Knighthoods and honor patents are granted by the Emperor or his representative in recognition for exemplary service to the Imperium. Knighthoods are typically associated with a specific act (foiling a Zhodani plot), while honor patents are typically associated with a specific office which must be held be a noble (such as Ambassador or Sector Admiral). If someone who does not already hold a suitable title is appointed to the office, they will also receive an honor patent. Knighthoods and honor patents expire when the recipient dies - they cannot be inherited. They typically do not include a fief, but usually do include a stipend, which is paid directly from the Imperial treasury. The immediate family of an honor noble are considered Imperial Nobility while the noble is alive. In theory they lose that right when the noble dies, but in practice recipients of honor patents will use their power as representatives of the Emperor to grant Imperial Citizenship to their immediate family members (but exceptions do exist, such as when the noble disowns a "black sheep" child).

"Regular" nobles receive patents of nobility with precarious tenure. These patents typically include a fief. The title and fief are inherited from one generation to the next, but can be revoked by the Emperor at any time. In practice this type of revocation is exceedingly rare, and is usually only done for nobles that are in rebellion against the Iridium Throne or who become notorious criminals. Instead, the noble's chosen successor must be confirmed as heir before he or she can inherit. This provides incentive for noble parents and prospective heirs to behave reasonably well (or at least, not egregiously badly) and to give their heir the type of upbringing and education that a noble should have, so that the title will be confirmed when it is passed to the next generation.

 

[Reban]

Hello Folks,

Just as the starport has its extraterritoriality rules, what rules apply to that of the fief? Is it considered to be Imperial held lands subject to the laws of the Capital as if it were Imperial soil, or is it subject to the laws of the planet itself?

Second question:
If people are citizens/subjects of the world they are born upon, what is the status of someone who is born within the confines of a Baron's fief? Is the person who is born within the Baron's fief, truly an "Imperial citizen", or is he a subject/citizen of the world he is born upon?

Third Question:
What is the status of someone who is born of a parent who is a subject/citizen of one world, and whose other parent is a citizen/subject of another?

First answer
IMTU all lands/territory/space-between-worlds not under the direct administration of a world government (IMTU a Subsidiary State) comes under direct rule of the Imperial Civil Service i.e. THE Imperial Government. This would apply to the Starport and any Fief. The Fief holder might allow the World authority a little or a lot of power in his/her fief.

Second answer
IMTU everyone is an Imperial subject. Imperial Subjects not citizens of a World/SubsidiaryState and Imperial citizens are subject to the immediate jurisdiction of the Imperial Civil Service. Imperial Citizens have the option to be citizens of Subsidiary States and have the option to make themselves liable to the taxes and judicial process of a Subsidiary State.

[Actually thanks for asking this question because I never thought that a source of imperial citizens IMTU would be fiefs]

Third answer
In my country we used to have a rule (the au solai rule, wrong latin spelling maybe someone with legal latin can give me the right spelling). Basically the rule said that anyone born within the state was a citizen of this state. A good rule in my opinion. However we started to get benefit tourists during the 90's where pregnant women entered the state just before giving birth and then left again after the baby was registered as a citizen. They could then claim benefits for the child. So we scrapped it...but we never actually legislated to replace it...so who is a citizen sometimes has to be decided by the courts.

So IYTU each world may handle citizenship differently. Government code and Law level might indicate how easy it is to gain citizenship.

My country traditionally has a large emigrant diaspora around the world so our rules on who qualifies for a passport are fairly liberal. Anyone with a grandparent who is or was a citizen can apply for a passport. Having a passport is not the same as being a citizen.

Additionally anyone born aboard a ship in international waters can be a citizen of the country who's flag the ship flies. The ObTrav for this depends on how you handle ship registration IYTU.

 

[Hemdian]

IMTU …

1) Within the 3I … starports, Imperial installations (naval bases, scout bases, and Imperial High Commission offices), and embassies(*) have XT status. Fief’s do not. Also, starports and other XT areas are not part of any fief but belong to the Emperor (except for embassies).

2) Answer to 1 makes this moot.

3) Depends on the specific member worlds involved and these may be contradictory.

A fief is *held* in fealty by the noble, not given. Therefore it cannot be sold on or disposed of in any way. Having said that, there is nothing to stop a noble family buying and selling additional lands, but those lands are not part of the fief. (The question of losing a fief is particularly of interest to me in RL as my great-great-great-great-grandfather was a baronet in Devon who sold his fief to cover his grandson’s gambling debts … but I’ve been unable to find out what happened to the title. It looks like it reverted back to the Crown, otherwise today my father would be a baronet.)

‘True’ titles of baronet and above are inheritable (in fact a baronet can be thought of as an inheritable knighthood), but ‘honor’ and ‘courtesy’ titles are not … where derived from a ‘true’ title (for example, for kin) these transfer with the ‘true’ title.

For non-inheritable nobles, a fief is still a potential source of income, and a title still provides political and social influence.

(* = Representing non-Imperial polities, ie not Imperial member worlds)

 

[Reban]

I have a quick question of my own.

When speaking about the fief in T5 has a Noble unlimited power over the Terrain Hexes or just the Local Hexes?

From the text on p49 and p50 I'd say its limited to the outrightly owned Local Hexes.

"Economic Control over one Terrain Hex (6,500 square
km) on a world and an associated income based on taxes
and production. Economic Control is similar to governmental
control: the ability (within reason) to create law and behavioral
expectations; the ability to control who can occupy the
land (and pay rent or taxes)."

"The holder is granted a portion of the tax income from
the land. Precisely how much is negotiated by the holder and
the local authorities, and depends on investment by, and the
influence of, the holder."

So in the Terrain Hex the noble or holder has "similar" power to the world government but it seems that this power is subservient to the World's government (he has to negotiate his cut of the taxes) where as in the Local Hex that is owned outright he or she is truly lord of all they survey.

This begs the question is "Imperial Law" or extra-territoriality limited to the Local Hexes?

 

[Hal]

This begs the question is "Imperial Law" or extra-territoriality limited to the Local Hexes?

Now you see why I'm exploring some of the issues that are being raised (in my mind at least) of what T5 is bringing to the table (so to speak). There are some "A implies B" kind of things that need to be looked at in the broad sense. Is a fief part of a local world in the legal sense, or is it part of the Imperium in the legal sense? This is going to be one of those things that fall in the domain of "GM decision" to be sure, but every GM who makes a decision one way or another, can either pursue the implications to their logical conclusion, or they can just wave a wand and ignore the implications simply because it doesn't really add sufficient flavor for the effort involved.

 

[Jazzlvraz]

Keep your eyes open for Don to open the Errata thread; this'll be a great point to ask Mark to clarify.

 

[rancke]

According to the CT essay about nobles, fiefs are optional; nobles MAY also get a fief. The size of the fief depends on the whim of the Emperor, and one example mentioned is "a single hectare of the business district of a city". I can't quite see something like that having extrality.

The essay also states that "the fief conveys the right to use the land, to rent or lease it out and collect income from it". Nowhere is there any mention of the right to rule it independently of the local authorities.

I also thought that the essay said that a fief could be some other income-generating possession, such as a chunk of company shares, but this is apparently not the case. I wonder if that has been mentioned somewhere else in canon or if I've made it up myself from extraneous sources (it's an idea that crops up in various SF books).


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Some lands fall between the two extremes ... free trade zones and (North American) 'Indian' Reservations come to mind.

National Parks are another interesting case to draw inspiration from. In New York State, the state had (years ago, when I lived there) one drinking age (21). The Federal Government had another drinking age (18). When the Renaissance Festival was held on National Park land, people too young to drink in New York State, could legally buy a drink at the Festival since Federal Law applied.

So a fief might be Imperial Territory, subject to Planetary law and government (by treaty), but independent from local government rule and laws ... you are a 1 hex independent nation within the world government. So you might be obligated (by treaty) to enforce the planetary law level, but YOU are the Police and Judge that decides when laws have been broken and what penalty is appropriate.

"Law Level 7 makes those automatic weapons illegal on this world, so pay the 10 credit fine and be on your way ... just don't let me catch you with anything prohibited at LL3 or we will have a SERIOUS problem. Now get out of my court."

 

[aramis]

According to the CT essay about nobles, fiefs are optional; nobles MAY also get a fief. The size of the fief depends on the whim of the Emperor, and one example mentioned is "a single hectare of the business district of a city". I can't quite see something like that having extrality.

The essay also states that "the fief conveys the right to use the land, to rent or lease it out and collect income from it". Nowhere is there any mention of the right to rule it independently of the local authorities.

I also thought that the essay said that a fief could be some other income-generating possession, such as a chunk of company shares, but this is apparently not the case. I wonder if that has been mentioned somewhere else in canon or if I've made it up myself from extraneous sources (it's an idea that crops up in various SF books).


Hans

This Matches my recollections, except for the conclusion that extrality wouldn't apply. I apply Limited Extrality even to urban fiefs. They have full "Embassy" Status, IMTU. local authority ends at the edge of the fief.

 

[rancke]

This Matches my recollections, except for the conclusion that extrality wouldn't apply. I apply Limited Extrality even to urban fiefs. They have full "Embassy" Status, IMTU. local authority ends at the edge of the fief.

I would say that the evidence that fiefs have no extrality is very weak but that the evidence that it has is entirely non-existent. I certainly don't say that the example of the city block is strong enough to contradict any explicit statement that fiefs have extrality. But I do say that a) as far as I can recall there is no such statement and b) the example suggests that it hasn't, as does the omission of such an explicit statement when talking about the rights associated with a fief.


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

MegaTraveller.

According to the CT essay about nobles, fiefs are optional; nobles MAY also get a fief. The size of the fief depends on the whim of the Emperor, and one example mentioned is "a single hectare of the business district of a city". I can't quite see something like that having extrality.

The essay also states that "the fief conveys the right to use the land, to rent or lease it out and collect income from it". Nowhere is there any mention of the right to rule it independently of the local authorities.

I also thought that the essay said that a fief could be some other income-generating possession, such as a chunk of company shares, but this is apparently not the case. I wonder if that has been mentioned somewhere else in canon or if I've made it up myself from extraneous sources (it's an idea that crops up in various SF books).


Hans

Hans,

I think the bits you are missing are from the MT Referee's Manual essay on the nobility, which is near the Emperors List if I am recall correctly. But that is where I remember it going into depth about what the nobs are and what they get and that is where it mentions the "fief" may be shares in a commercial venture.

I know this because I was missing Library Data N-Z till I got my Collected Supplements so the MT books where my only source for anything beyond Supplement 4: Citizens of the Imperium.

Laterness,
Craig.

 

[GypsyComet]

Depends on the fief, IMO.

The Baron OF X probably has some extrality territory, while the five Barons FROM X probably do not.

 

[aramis]

Depends on the fief, IMO.

The Baron OF X probably has some extrality territory, while the five Barons FROM X probably do not.

they also probably lack fiefs.

 

[GypsyComet]

they also probably lack fiefs.

In that they are not the voice of their world in the Moot, no. They'll be "ceremonial" or "honor" nobles. The ceremonials might still have an office that goes with their position (as opposed to their Title) and it might even be in extrality territory. The Honor nobles just get a nice set of cufflinks.

The nobles associated with a world in T5 are specifically the Moot crowd, with a responsibility to their world and a slice of land on it to derive, well, whatever they like from. Sometimes all those titles will rest with one person (ie. Norris), sometimes be all in one family, and sometimes be unrelated. Its a big Imperium.

Sometimes they are also rulers (as at Mora), but it is not required or expected.

 

[Hal]

At present, I'm looking to see what the implications of the rules in T5 are, primarily because (or so I am assuming!) T5 will present more information than was ever put into print.

This is what my MASTER TEXT PDF file says (note that this is NOT the finalized copy, but until I receive my copy, I'm stuck using the playtest materials)


"Nobles receive Land Grants on the worlds on which they hold fiefs. Each Hex generates a profit equal to Cr10,000 per Trade Classification per year. A Hex with no TC generates Cr5,000 annually. Noble Land Grants are cumulative. Each title confers its own Land Grant.
The first hex in any grant is on the noble’s homeworld. All subsequent hexes are randomly allocated. For each hex on a mainworld, a noble is also granted one hex on a non-mainworld in the same system."

Elsewhere on that same page, it indicates how many hexes the noble's fief will be. It should be noted that these "hexes" are actual territories or land grants - not shares of stock, or an industrial block within a city (although they can be). Each hex granted to a noble, has an accompanying "non-mainworld" hex to go with it, so in reality, we're looking at two hexes for the lowest grants on up to 512 hexes (of which 256 are on the mainworld) for an Archduke. Note too, that this indicates PROFITS of a given value, not overall income for the hex per se. Profits by definition, are defined as Gross Income less total expenses.

So, we're back to my question. Are these hexes, outright land grants from the planet to the Imperial Government, and as such, follows the rules of an extra-territorial entity and legality - or are these parcels of land deemed to be under the control directly of the home world government?

It would seem odd, that lands ceded directly to the Imperium for use as fiefs, would be under the sway of the government to the extent that the nobles owe taxes to the home world government rather than owing it (if to anyone) the Emperor himself.

Well, sleep beckons, and I shant disappoint. Night folks.

 

[aramis]

In that they are not the voice of their world in the Moot, no. They'll be "ceremonial" or "honor" nobles. The ceremonials might still have an office that goes with their position (as opposed to their Title) and it might even be in extrality territory. The Honor nobles just get a nice set of cufflinks.

The nobles associated with a world in T5 are specifically the Moot crowd, with a responsibility to their world and a slice of land on it to derive, well, whatever they like from. Sometimes all those titles will rest with one person (ie. Norris), sometimes be all in one family, and sometimes be unrelated. Its a big Imperium.

Sometimes they are also rulers (as at Mora), but it is not required or expected.

That doesn't ensure a fief, tho. Probably only the seniormost is ensured a fief, and that may be as part of the office, rather than the title.

Much like certain British offices (EG: Warden of the Northern Ports) came with a small fief for the office, separate from the fief for the warden's actual noble title.

Perhaps I've allowed a little too much "Kingmaker" into my appreciation of Traveller.