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Feeding Worlds

In the Traveller setting, shipping costs at Cr1000/dTon mean no more that maybe a tenth of a credit surcharge per kilogram, quite low enough to support the local taste for rice from the next world over and to make a few extra bucks satisfying that world's yen for your local corn.

But that only applies if the next world over is one or two parsecs away. The food Motmos exports to Forine take two jump-3 and one jump-2 (or a jump-3 jumping short to avoid transshipment costs), for a tripling of the transportation costs (even worse for jump-2 traffic that needs five jumps to do the 8 parsecs between the two).


Hans
 
But that only applies if the next world over is one or two parsecs away. The food Motmos exports to Forine take two jump-3 and one jump-2 (or a jump-3 jumping short to avoid transshipment costs), for a tripling of the transportation costs (even worse for jump-2 traffic that needs five jumps to do the 8 parsecs between the two).


Hans

And ignores that the cost to operate the ship at J3 exceeds KCr1 per Td of cargo... not by much, but still...

J3 under Bk2-77 is Cr1075 per Td per jump in a 4000Td hull; Under Bk2-81, Cr1107 per Td per jump in a 4000Td hull.
That's op costs including mortgage at maximum jump on a "standard" 2 jumps per 28-day month schedule.
 
All very nice, but the point is that shipping food isn't simply about delivering calories at the lowest possible cost. Shipping costs are not so high as to present an absolute barrier; they tend only to favor the local-grown where there is an equivalent local-grown, and to shrink the market a bit for a given item. Unless you're poor, people tend to like to dress up their calories a bit, have an occasional treat, add a bit of something special to the stew and so forth.

If you're willing to pay movie-theater prices for a bag of popcorn, then somebody a few parsecs off - on some world sadly lacking in corn crops - is likely to be willing to pay movie-theater prices to pick up a bag at the local supermarket for a really special treat for the kiddies. Or perhaps a box of guava paste (mmmmm!). Or a specific variety of cheese for the dinner party. Or maybe just a particular type of pepper to season the food. It doesn't all have to be champagne and caviar to justify export: jalapeno jelly and dried mango slices are also likely to do well. Where there's anything like a middle class, there's likely to be a market for "different" foods, seasonings, you name it.

And Timerover (welcome back, dude! :)) mentions coffee and tea as well: find yourself addicted to - er, accustomed to - the tasty mild stimulant or narcotic or what-have-you from a few parsecs off, and you'll make room for it in your budget.

Trav planetary pops don't tend to be large; not everyone in those pops - especially among the higher tech worlds - will have an interest in working agriculture, much less the level of agricultural entrepreneurism needed to meet all tastes; the agricultural sector tends to stick with what they know how to do unless there's some strong reason to change; and the ecology of many worlds doesn't favor the kind of wide variety in agricultural practice that would meet all tastes for all things. Between population and cultural details, ecological circumstances, agricultural norms and so forth, there are likely to be any number of items that get imported to meet local "yens". Those few worlds with the right set of circumstances to meet most or all needs are also those worlds likely to be exporting their excess to less "privileged" worlds. And, even an ecologically unlucky world might just have some local item that really excites the tastebuds of neighboring worlds - spicy lichen or something.
 
All very nice, but the point is that shipping food isn't simply about delivering calories at the lowest possible cost. Shipping costs are not so high as to present an absolute barrier; they tend only to favor the local-grown where there is an equivalent local-grown, and to shrink the market a bit for a given item. Unless you're poor, people tend to like to dress up their calories a bit, have an occasional treat, add a bit of something special to the stew and so forth.
It's a point that is not in dispute. What you're talking about sounds a lot like luxury food to me. And no one has suggested that food isn't being shipped as luxuries.


Hans
 
It's a point that is not in dispute. What you're talking about sounds a lot like luxury food to me. And no one has suggested that food isn't being shipped as luxuries.


Hans

You've never been to an Alaskan village - there are NO luxury foods. Well, they consider Soda (at $5 per can) and Kraft Macaroni and Cheese (at $3 per box) luxury foods. They don't get fresh eggs unless they go nest raiding. They don't get fancy coffee - Folgers can be $20 per can. (In anchorage, soda is $3-4 per 6-pack; Mac and cheese can be bought for $1.50/box, fresh eggs are $3-$4/doz, Folgers is under $10/can. Cheese runs $4/pound and up in town; it's a special order item for most villagers, and when they do, it's shipped from anchorage for another $20.

The price barrier coupled with low population means a LOT of stuff simply won't make the travel.

This is a fundamental truth of small isolated populations with expensive shipping. If your economic theories can't explain it, they're broken, because the reality is that it's easier to get a color TV in Ambler than to get a kilo of cheddar-style cheese. (Not cheaper, mind you, but easier. Cheese needs to be refrigerated, and once frozen, cheddar does some odd things.)

Oh, and a doctor visit in Ambler runs about $500-700. That counts airfare to Anchorage (because there's no doctor closer). If several people need one, you see if one will fly out - cheaper for everyone to fly him in for a week, pay him a grand, plus food and lodging and airfare, and let him go fishing or hunting with you..

Anything perishable gets far more expensive than travel alone would account for - it's the expediters taking their cut, plus their warehousing losses, then the additional losses in shipping. The expediters are charging just below retail to the villages, plus shipping. And then, the village store has to eat the losses in shipping.
 
You've never been to an Alaskan village - there are NO luxury foods. Well, they consider Soda (at $5 per can) and Kraft Macaroni and Cheese (at $3 per box) luxury foods. They don't get fresh eggs unless they go nest raiding. They don't get fancy coffee - Folgers can be $20 per can. (In anchorage, soda is $3-4 per 6-pack; Mac and cheese can be bought for $1.50/box, fresh eggs are $3-$4/doz, Folgers is under $10/can. Cheese runs $4/pound and up in town; it's a special order item for most villagers, and when they do, it's shipped from anchorage for another $20.

The price barrier coupled with low population means a LOT of stuff simply won't make the travel.
That's very interesting and makes me want to encourage you to write an article about life on low-population worlds. But I'm not quite sure what your point is. Are you contradicting me or are you agreeing but saying that I'm not going far enough?

This is a fundamental truth of small isolated populations with expensive shipping. If your economic theories can't explain it, they're broken, because the reality is that it's easier to get a color TV in Ambler than to get a kilo of cheddar-style cheese. (Not cheaper, mind you, but easier. Cheese needs to be refrigerated, and once frozen, cheddar does some odd things.)
My economic theories says absolutely nothing about small isolated populations with or without expensive shipping. You have a golden opportunity to shape my opinions on the subject here. Go for it! ;)

Oh, and a doctor visit in Ambler runs about $500-700. That counts airfare to Anchorage (because there's no doctor closer). If several people need one, you see if one will fly out - cheaper for everyone to fly him in for a week, pay him a grand, plus food and lodging and airfare, and let him go fishing or hunting with you..

Anything perishable gets far more expensive than travel alone would account for - it's the expediters taking their cut, plus their warehousing losses, then the additional losses in shipping. The expediters are charging just below retail to the villages, plus shipping. And then, the village store has to eat the losses in shipping.
More 'life on low-population worlds' fodder. You really should think about writing an article or come up with some tables.


Hans
 
A village is not a good example

The village is not a colony. It's not a straight comparison.

Also when McDonnalds opened up in Kiev and Moscow people we're paying a couple weeks salary to try an American hamburger. Someone will buy the coffee, etc. However, the real staple of sales will be the latest seed, genetically modified chickens, etc. When we go to Mars they will need to grow their own food from the seeds we send. They might get an Earth treat or two once ever 6 months. But that will be pretty minute... "here is your Belgian chocolate. Yes. Just one each.".
 
Contradicting, partially.

When you get to small populations in isolation, many things become unavailable. It's not just price, but affordability and unsold storability.

I used to work as a cargo roust for Stebbins-Ambler Air Transport. For us to carry refrigerated cargo on the 3-5 hour flight, either we were flying in winter (in which case, the hold was usually -10°C), or we loaded a refrigerator lorry (yes, bring the cold stuff in in an automobile, which then had to be running and exhausted to the outside), or put it into an insulated box with ice or dry-ice. So, generally, we didn't carry any refer goods to them. When we did, it was "pay the airline for the weight, pay the crew for packaging and the goods themselves, including the cooler and the dry ice." 6 gallons of icecream cost us $7 for the foam cooler, $30 for the ice cream, $20 for the dry ice, and $20 for the weight, plus a $20 tip to make it worth our time (petrol and packaging time). One bloke asked for 12 gal of ice cream, and 10 gal of milk, when he ordered himself a new freezer for his house. We put $50 in dry ice into it, along with the milk and ice cream, and two $2 bags of water-ice (to separate the milk from the dry ice). We also tossed in a 12-pack of soda and a 12 pack of beer... we drank the beer on the bird, and sold the sodas for $5 per can. (We paid $5 for the 12 pack.) More over, we sold out of soda in 3 minutes... the time it took for people to run to the plane with their wallets. We couldn't sell the beer - it was at the time a "damp" village. We did give one to the chief, and one to the priest. Mind you, this was in about 1988. Less trouble for underage drinking than for someone having you sell them a beer...

Really, it's rather simple: The easier it is to ship something, the easier it is to get it in a village. It's not the cost that's the real hassle - it's the hassle and losses in transit.

Once the food hits about 2x the in town price, they stopped ordering it for the store, because people weren't buying enough of it to make it worth stocking. What was, at the time, a 35¢ candy bar in town was a $1 candy bar in the village - not because of expense or loss, but because that was the only way to not run out before the next shipment; higher, and no one bought any, lower, and they didn't last and people got annoyed with the wait.

I can't write any explicit rules for when this happens, just note the observations I made on prices there, and what was there. And it was just two villages, and a few others one stop each; I've acquaintances from other villages, and they shared similar observations.

Color TV was real popular, even tho' many villages got one station, and that only poorly. And, since the dawn of the Atari 2400 VCS, videogames were hot items in the villages. Not that people bought a lot - one village had an atari in almost every one of the 30 homes... but most people bought one or two games, and then shared them around the village. "Hey, Joe, can I borrow Yar's Revenge?" "Yeah. Who's got defender today?" The NES was even more popular. Now, it's Playstation and X-Box. They've got pretty decent internet, but still, shipping is a pain.

An acquaintance from church is teaching in Barrow - to get "white man food," he orders from out of town. It's cheaper for him to ship a pallet-load using Amazon than to buy the same goods locally, and he is able to get more variety. And Barrow has routine air cargo service! Fedex goes there. (Not daily, but they do go there!) He gets a big shipment of dry-goods-foods, once a month, and supplements with occasional refrigerated items bought from the local store.

You're more likely to see flour shipped than whole wheat kernels; peanut butter but not peanuts; crisco rather than butter; cheeze whiz but not cheddar cheese; bulk coffee and tea, not k-pods nor teabags. The longer it lasts on the shelf without thermally controlled environments, the more likely they import it. The tighter it packs, the more likely to get it in.

Caribou hide pillows stuffed with grasses are actually quite nice.
 
The village is not a colony. It's not a straight comparison.

Actually, Ambler is a colony, in almost every practical way. It's connected by land, but there is no land traffic. All traffic is by sea or air. The population was established basically because the people were told to pick a spot and settle down. The culture is not traditional native, even tho' the population base is 84% native, due to cultural contamination. Even the name is a white name, not a native one.

It's not self-sufficient, either - while it could sustain about 50 people based upon local subsistence hunting, it's not suitable for farming, and the local plant resources would only provide for about 50 people. It's a village of between 250 and 300 people, most of the food is bought with food stamps, so is imported upon a handout from the remote and impersonal distant federal government.

You won't find a more comparable-to-a-colony than remote Alaskan villages in the modern world, except for remote Canadian or Siberian villages, which have the exact same set of issues.

Oh, and Nome's upset that Taco Bell didn't leave the "restaurant on wheels" there to be operated by locals. They STILL want a permanent Taco Bell. Can't get there by road, either.
 
You've never been to an Alaskan village - there are NO luxury foods. Well, they consider Soda (at $5 per can) and Kraft Macaroni and Cheese (at $3 per box) luxury foods. They don't get fresh eggs unless they go nest raiding. They don't get fancy coffee - Folgers can be $20 per can. (In anchorage, soda is $3-4 per 6-pack; Mac and cheese can be bought for $1.50/box, fresh eggs are $3-$4/doz, Folgers is under $10/can. Cheese runs $4/pound and up in town; it's a special order item for most villagers, and when they do, it's shipped from anchorage for another $20.

The price barrier coupled with low population means a LOT of stuff simply won't make the travel.
...

And so it might be in a low population colony with an E starport, infrequently visited and then by ships carrying more important cargo than boxes of macaroni and cheese. However, when there is adequate transport, the surcharge for a parsec or two doesn't yield soda at $5 a can.

Similarly, a high-pop world with an E port on what should otherwise be a decent trade route is likely to have an E port for a reason - perhaps cultural or religious restrictions or local prejudices are in play that limit demand for offworld merchandise, including "alien" foods.

Clearly different worlds are going to have different circumstances.

It's a point that is not in dispute. What you're talking about sounds a lot like luxury food to me. And no one has suggested that food isn't being shipped as luxuries.

Well, maybe. The dividing line between staples and luxury foods is pretty fuzzy for the middle class, even fuzzier for the upper class. A lot of my family budget is staples: bread, cereal, pastas, chicken, hamburger, routine veggies, Velveeta and good ol' American cheese, and so on. Meats aren't too expensive here because we have a big local cattle industry. However, a fair chunk of our food budget consists of imports that might be counted as "luxury" but that we'd sorely miss if we didn't have them on a day-to-day basis, especially things like coffee, bananas, oranges and orange juice, lemons, and so forth. Our cheese is likely to come from Wisconsin even though there's a very active local dairy industry. I suspect that's true for a lot of the posters here - except maybe those living in parts of Alaska or other remote areas. ;)
 
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Well, maybe. The dividing line between staples and luxury foods is pretty fuzzy for the middle class, even fuzzier for the upper class. A lot of my family budget is staples: bread, cereal, pastas, chicken, hamburger, routine veggies, Velveeta and good ol' American cheese, and so on. Meats aren't too expensive here because we have a big local cattle industry. However, a fair chunk of our food budget consists of imports that might be counted as "luxury" but that we'd sorely miss if we didn't have them on a day-to-day basis, especially things like coffee, bananas, oranges and orange juice, lemons, and so forth. Our cheese is likely to come from Wisconsin even though there's a very active local dairy industry. I suspect that's true for a lot of the posters here - except maybe those living in parts of Alaska or other remote areas. ;)
My take is that if you buy it because it is cheaper than the local alternative, then it's an imported stable. If you buy it even though it's more expensive than the local alternative, then it's a luxury. Or, if you wish to split it into three categories (as I do for my cost of living rules -- people buy generic necessities, comforts and luxuries), a comfort if it's not that much more expensive, a luxury if it is.


Hans
 
colony dynamics.

Actually, Ambler is a colony, in almost every practical way.

They do not sound motivated by survival and growth. I would expect a colony to be attempting to survive. Live off the fat of the land not suck off the food stamps. As sad it is...it is only an example of shipping costs.
 
My take is that if you buy it because it is cheaper than the local alternative, then it's an imported stable. If you buy it even though it's more expensive than the local alternative, then it's a luxury. Or, if you wish to split it into three categories (as I do for my cost of living rules -- people buy generic necessities, comforts and luxuries), a comfort if it's not that much more expensive, a luxury if it is.


Hans

I like that, but it's still a fuzzy boundaries thing. I'd rather not be the one to try to tell my wife her coffee isn't a necessity. ;)

At any rate, it's clear that - depending on the level of interstellar trade going on at any given world (reflected by its starport type and population) - there's likely to be a fair chunk of food being imported or exported, much of it luxury or comfort but perhaps some of it select staples driven by economic variables (World A has high tech farm machinery powered by fuel cells, World B is still using fossil fuels and struggles with a common local mold that has a real hankering for wheat). On the other hand, most worlds should be able to meet the basic caloric needs of their populations - or at least come close enough to keep them alive until the local agri-sector adapted - were interstellar trade to come to a sudden stop.

Question remains open for outlier worlds: vacuum worlds and other places where normal agriculture is not possible. Certainly the technology is there for these places to produce food without need of a "normal" farm ecology. The question is whether the tech can deliver food at a cost and quality competitive with what can be imported. If it can, then these worlds are as self-supporting as any other. If not - well, there's adequate incentive for such worlds to keep food production facilities available for emergencies, but we know that governments do occasionally cut corners to hold down costs. I don't know if there's anything in canon that speaks to the cost of hothouse, hydroponic or artificially made foods.

add: my wife happened to see this and would like to emphatically point out that coffee IS a necessity.
 
Having spent my Army time in Alaska, plus doing the Inside Passage, what Aramis says regarding Ambler holds true for a lot of villages and towns in Alaska, including the capital of Juneau. Only way in there is by ship or air, and basically the city is built on the side of a mountain, so no arable land. Fishing is there, but not enough to support the population without very rapidly exhausting the fish stocks. Everything including building material is bought in.

I also spent time in the Solomon Islands in the South Pacific in 2002, and the situation there was quite similar, except to some degree more extreme. The shipping time for any item from the US was 3 months minimum. If from Australia, about a month. Two passenger flights a week from Australia, with a 737 that was 6 months overdue for maintenance. All inter-island travel by boat, and actually, about all travel on each island by boat. No road network or roads, except for some very bad ones, on Guadalcanal. All fuel had to be brought in from Australia, cost was 3 times that of the US, which still holds true. Most of the population was still in subsistence agriculture, dependent on manioc, coconuts, tropical fruits, and fish. Some chickens were raised, but extremely expensive, and those that tried the chicken at the hotel complained of it being very tough. Pork if someone got lucking pig hunting on one of the larger islands. No beef at all, except what we bought in. There was a local Coca-Cola bottling plant on Guadalcanal, using 250 milliliter glass bottles, that were most assiduously recycled. Cost as One US Dollar, 2 Australian Dollars (exchange rate at the time) or 6 Solomon Island Dollars. The locals thought that one bottle of Coca-Cola a week was a great treat. The main imported foods were rice and butter, no milk. Bread and flour was available, but out of reach of the average local inhabitant.

For a feel of what a poor, frontier planet might be like, it would be hard to beat the Solomons.

Edit Note on Coffee: In 1948, the US government designated Coffee as a Strategic Resource that would be vital to any future war effort.
 
There are several kinds of colony...

  • Some are nothing more than a place to house a military or commerce base. Adak, WW II Guam, WWII Solomon Islands, Dutch Harbor.
  • Some are places to preserve a culture Ambler, modern Solomons, many of the polynesian atolls, Isle of Man.
  • Some are places to extract resources from the environment. Juneau, Kuparik.
  • Some are places to disappear people to. 1700's Australia and Guyana.
  • Some are population density reduction. (This isn't the same as a place to send the disaffected.) Much of the American West in the late 1800's, the american east in the late 1700's, Australia in the mid 1800's.
  • Others are to destroy an indigenous culture. Barrow, Sitka and Kodiak in the mid-late 1800s; every US Native American Agency pre 1930; Eastern Siberia.
  • Others are to exploit indigenous peoples labor. British Raj, Spanish Cuba, US Hawaii in the late 1800's, Japan's "South East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" (ww II), Nazi Africa, Nazi occupied greece and turkey, pretty much any soviet-era "-stan SSR", Ukraine from about 1850-1996.
  • Entertainment is the purpose for some colonies. 1900-1930's Cuba was mostly about entertainment; modern Kauai and Maui, modern Orlando.

Cultural preserves and cultural eliminations are often outside supported. Art and luxury resources often are able to bring about a significant improvement in local economies, but as a rule, they are funded.

Resource extraction is often self-supporting while the resource lasts. Juneau could support 1000-2000 people based upon its jade and gold mines. It's 30-40 thousand are mostly supported by working in government; it pays its own way as an administrative center; even if the state gov't dried up tomorrow, Juneau would continue to exist for another 30-50 years... the expected lifespan of the gold and jade mines. Logging would become more important, too - it could support another 2-3K people based upon fishing and logging. The goods would pay well enough to import what can't be locally grown, harvested, or manufactured. Eventually, it would become a group of several fishing and logging towns, as the mines ran out, and people moved into remote areas to log them, too.

Entertainment colonies are, at present, mostly about tourist getaways to unusually stable climate naked-body survivable locations. They are often self supporting when the tourists aren't there, but during their tourist seasons, the overall community is importing massively - tourists, money, and the goods to feed the tourists. These are the kind most likely to have all the conveniences and luxuries.

Creation of new cultures is often supported by some group back home, and are the most likely to be in for the long haul... and to fail spectacularly. The exceptions are so notable that they're mythologized: Deseret (Mormon cultural colony), Plymouth (pilgrim culture), Prester John's Kingdom (Probably Eritrea), Moorish Al-Andalus, Mount Athos. Note: All of these were religious in origin; all were initially supported from outside, and Mount Athos still is; all became self-supporting. The failures are equally as interesting: Jonestown (Guyana), the various Shaker communities (to be expected - they swear off sex, even within marriage), the Rajneeshi commune in Oregon, several compounds founded by members of Rev. Sun Myung Moon's "Unification Church", several FLDS compounds, Branch Davidians, literally dozens of separatist groups in the early 1800s. The failures are of two broad brushes: unable to sustain themselves when the outside help dries up, or run afoul of the nearest neighbors due to clash of cultures (including being in the way of the parent culture they were trying to escape from). Ironically, Juneau is just south of one such enclave - A Russian Orthodox monastery from before Juneau became a town - was occupied for some years; it eventually failed, but the buildings are still in place.... and maintained by the state, as it's in a state park. THey can be rented from the state parks department for special occasions.

Places to reduce population density are often initially subsidized, as well. Most of the US east Coast was used this way - the subsidizers were the colonial organizers in many cases - wealthy, and wanting to stay that way, they paid for others to come with and work for them on indentures.

Places to send the undesirable are different - they're often maintained in two tiers - tier one are paid to keep the members of tier two in place, and tier two are expected to support themselves in place, no matter what. Some are penal colonies, some are ethnic dumping grounds, some are political dumping grounds. The haves are usually well off, and supported almost entirely by the homeland.

Most current colonial enterprises are either religious separatists, political separatists, resource extraction, or cultural preservation.
 
Just as a demographic exercise:

Of the 439 worlds of the Spinward Marches, 77 are in the tens to thousands population: settlements ranging from about the size of a small mobile home park to a village or small Mayberry-style town.

Another 55 are in the tens of thousands population: perhaps one largish town or several small towns.

209 - almost half - are in the hundreds of thousands to tens of millions: maybe one or more smallish cities with accompanying towns and other settlements. Other than the asteroid belt worlds and other world-types where lack of breathable atmosphere forces clustering, you're looking at population distributions similar to or thinner than the US western states, ranging from small regions as sparsely settled as Alaska or Wyoming with entire continents still entirely uninhabited, to about on a par with New Mexico/Idaho/Nebraska, depending on how big the world is, how much of it is water, and how much the people like to clump. The densest of these has a population density of about 23 per square kilometer, about on a par with Nebraska. The thinnest has a population density of one per thousand square kilometers, suggesting most of the planet remains untouched wilderness. But, of course, it could easily be much denser if there's a lot of useless land or the people stick close for some reason.

Another 80 range in the hundreds of millions to tens of billions: populations ranging from as big as the larger nations of modern Earth to five times Earth's population. Population density varies widely, from as little as one person per TWO square kilometers to almost a thousand per square kilometer (Rethe - very Trantor-like at first glance) - excluding the asteroid belt "worlds".

Of the set, the 132 smallest would be colony-like as Aramis describes it, though there may be colony-like individual settlements on any of the worlds. For the larger populations, much depends on how the population grew and how tightly they clustered as they grew, which we generally have few clues about.

Of course, the Spinward Marches doesn't seem to quite fit the probabilities as outlined in Book-3, so it may be atypical.
 
If you look at the history of settlement either here or in say, Australia, people concentrated in the initial settlements and then very gradually spread out. Even allowing for air travel via air raft, I suspect that will still be the case.
 
If you look at the history of settlement either here or in say, Australia, people concentrated in the initial settlements and then very gradually spread out. Even allowing for air travel via air raft, I suspect that will still be the case.

I expect that'll remain true for the most part, and people will continue to concentrate around useful water sources and in areas useful for agriculture, fishing (assuming there's sea life worth recovering), and other exploitable resources, but I suspect technology will play a role. The ability to study the planet from close orbit, looking for indications of mineral concentrations with neutrino sensors, densitometers and other tools, and the availability of relatively inexpensive air and suborbital flight, means there may be some settlements far removed from the main colonization site, exploiting promising ore concentrations or whatever other high-value resources can be readily found by such means.
 
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