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Explaining the Aslan conquest

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />sounds like perfidious zhodani propaganda to me. I'm sure the citizens of Cronor, Cipango, and Riverland would disagree, if they still could.
That was 500 years ago, roughly 17 human generations. Getting worked up over the Zhos taking Cipango is like getting worked up over the Ottomans taking Constantinople.</font>[/QUOTE]We want the Hagia Sophia back.

http://www.stanford.edu/~aokyay/istanbul/html/ayasofya3.html

The Toons' behavior is all cultural, they don't have to act the way they do.
stepping away from one's culture is difficult. to say one doesn't have to follow one's birth culture is asking a lot.
 
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />sounds like perfidious zhodani propaganda to me. I'm sure the citizens of Cronor, Cipango, and Riverland would disagree, if they still could.
That was 500 years ago, roughly 17 human generations. Getting worked up over the Zhos taking Cipango is like getting worked up over the Ottomans taking Constantinople.</font>[/QUOTE]We want the Hagia Sophia back.

http://www.stanford.edu/~aokyay/istanbul/html/ayasofya3.html

The Toons' behavior is all cultural, they don't have to act the way they do.
stepping away from one's culture is difficult. to say one doesn't have to follow one's birth culture is asking a lot.
 
Quite honestly, there are those who are still fighting what amounts to the continuation of the crusades... Christian vs Muslim, throughout the northern half of Africa.

There are many middle easterners upset because the jews still want their temple mound back.

In areas where hatred is ingrained, the fear can generate the need for forces where those forces have no real mission other than quelling the fears of those they supposedly protect.
 
Quite honestly, there are those who are still fighting what amounts to the continuation of the crusades... Christian vs Muslim, throughout the northern half of Africa.

There are many middle easterners upset because the jews still want their temple mound back.

In areas where hatred is ingrained, the fear can generate the need for forces where those forces have no real mission other than quelling the fears of those they supposedly protect.
 
Quite honestly, there are those who are still fighting what amounts to the continuation of the crusades... Christian vs Muslim, throughout the northern half of Africa.

There are many middle easterners upset because the jews still want their temple mound back.

In areas where hatred is ingrained, the fear can generate the need for forces where those forces have no real mission other than quelling the fears of those they supposedly protect.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
IMTU.

Just a thought, and it may have already come up somewhere before, but what if the Aslan "conquests" in the Marches are actually the result of political maneuvering?

How much do we know about the duke of Tobia?

What if he is an Imperial Aslan who takes the opportunity to throw in his lot with the Aslan once it is clear that the Imperium is no more (and the Aslan ambassador was killed in the process).

He then starts to persuade other subsector dukes to side with him rather than Norris...
According to MT canon, Duke Quinn of Tobia committed suicide because he mishandled the Aslan invasion so horribly.


Hans
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
IMTU.

Just a thought, and it may have already come up somewhere before, but what if the Aslan "conquests" in the Marches are actually the result of political maneuvering?

How much do we know about the duke of Tobia?

What if he is an Imperial Aslan who takes the opportunity to throw in his lot with the Aslan once it is clear that the Imperium is no more (and the Aslan ambassador was killed in the process).

He then starts to persuade other subsector dukes to side with him rather than Norris...
According to MT canon, Duke Quinn of Tobia committed suicide because he mishandled the Aslan invasion so horribly.


Hans
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
IMTU.

Just a thought, and it may have already come up somewhere before, but what if the Aslan "conquests" in the Marches are actually the result of political maneuvering?

How much do we know about the duke of Tobia?

What if he is an Imperial Aslan who takes the opportunity to throw in his lot with the Aslan once it is clear that the Imperium is no more (and the Aslan ambassador was killed in the process).

He then starts to persuade other subsector dukes to side with him rather than Norris...
According to MT canon, Duke Quinn of Tobia committed suicide because he mishandled the Aslan invasion so horribly.


Hans
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
1 - The Zhos have fought 5 wars in 500 years to first limit and then halt 3I expansion. For the most part they've succeeded. The Consulate is also non-expansionist itself. It's reached the size it feels it can control and all expansive energies are directed down the Core Route. The Zhos do prefer a 'buffer' of small states along their borders however and the Frontier Wars have been a long term effort to recreate that buffer in the Marches.

Seeing the Imperium split into factions is the Consulate's dream come true. Attacking one of those factions when the Zhos don't actually need to and possibly uniting the factions into a 'crusade' against the Consulate would be outright idiocy. The Domain of Deneb is safe from the Zhos and Norris knows that.
I agree with most of your post, Bill, but not this part. Norris may suspect that the Zhos won't come, but he can't know it for sure. I think it's perfectly plausible that he would order all the regular fleets to congregate in Vilis an Jewell and order the whole domain on a war footing.

The place where the story breaks for me is when he keeps all those assets stationed in Vilis and Jewell and even adds every reactivated hull that comes along (and believe me, once the high-tech, high-pop worlds of the Domain goes on a war footing and begins churning out escorts and cruisers, Norris is going to have reinforcements up the wahzoo) for years on end in the face of continued Zho inactivity and increasing Aslan and Vargr activity. That just doesn't make any kind of sense.


Hans
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
1 - The Zhos have fought 5 wars in 500 years to first limit and then halt 3I expansion. For the most part they've succeeded. The Consulate is also non-expansionist itself. It's reached the size it feels it can control and all expansive energies are directed down the Core Route. The Zhos do prefer a 'buffer' of small states along their borders however and the Frontier Wars have been a long term effort to recreate that buffer in the Marches.

Seeing the Imperium split into factions is the Consulate's dream come true. Attacking one of those factions when the Zhos don't actually need to and possibly uniting the factions into a 'crusade' against the Consulate would be outright idiocy. The Domain of Deneb is safe from the Zhos and Norris knows that.
I agree with most of your post, Bill, but not this part. Norris may suspect that the Zhos won't come, but he can't know it for sure. I think it's perfectly plausible that he would order all the regular fleets to congregate in Vilis an Jewell and order the whole domain on a war footing.

The place where the story breaks for me is when he keeps all those assets stationed in Vilis and Jewell and even adds every reactivated hull that comes along (and believe me, once the high-tech, high-pop worlds of the Domain goes on a war footing and begins churning out escorts and cruisers, Norris is going to have reinforcements up the wahzoo) for years on end in the face of continued Zho inactivity and increasing Aslan and Vargr activity. That just doesn't make any kind of sense.


Hans
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
1 - The Zhos have fought 5 wars in 500 years to first limit and then halt 3I expansion. For the most part they've succeeded. The Consulate is also non-expansionist itself. It's reached the size it feels it can control and all expansive energies are directed down the Core Route. The Zhos do prefer a 'buffer' of small states along their borders however and the Frontier Wars have been a long term effort to recreate that buffer in the Marches.

Seeing the Imperium split into factions is the Consulate's dream come true. Attacking one of those factions when the Zhos don't actually need to and possibly uniting the factions into a 'crusade' against the Consulate would be outright idiocy. The Domain of Deneb is safe from the Zhos and Norris knows that.
I agree with most of your post, Bill, but not this part. Norris may suspect that the Zhos won't come, but he can't know it for sure. I think it's perfectly plausible that he would order all the regular fleets to congregate in Vilis an Jewell and order the whole domain on a war footing.

The place where the story breaks for me is when he keeps all those assets stationed in Vilis and Jewell and even adds every reactivated hull that comes along (and believe me, once the high-tech, high-pop worlds of the Domain goes on a war footing and begins churning out escorts and cruisers, Norris is going to have reinforcements up the wahzoo) for years on end in the face of continued Zho inactivity and increasing Aslan and Vargr activity. That just doesn't make any kind of sense.


Hans
 
Originally posted by rancke:
E]I agree with most of your post, Bill, but not this part. Norris may suspect that the Zhos won't come, but he can't know it for sure.
Hans,

You're correct, he can't know for sure. However, IM very extremely HO Norris does suspect and Norris is a gambler.

I strongly believe that the Imperium 'knows' what we know. They can look back at the history of the Frontier Wars and infer the same Zhodani grand strategic plan that we do. The references in the Zhodani Alien Module about the Consulate already being at a size the Zhodani feel they can effectively govern aren't in some secret GM's section, they're part of the main text. The Imperium should know about that Zhodani opinion, although it certainly shouldn't choose to rely on it.

The Imperium can see the same policy in action along the rest of the Consulate's borders too. From the Extents out to the Far Frontiers, thoughtful Imperial analysts and observers can see a Consulate that isn't expanding and hasn't expanded in millennia. It may meddle with the myriad of small polities beyond it's borders, but the Consulate only meddles.

So, IMVEHO the Imperium knows about the Zhodani desire for a 'neutral' zone and has probably known about it since the time of the 3rd Frontier War. The disagreement between the Delphine/Santanocheev faction and the Norris faction wasn't about what the Zhodani war aims were but rather about how the Zhodani were planning on achieving those aims. The Delphine/Santanocheev faction thought all they had to do was defend the Jewell salient from capture. Norris realized that the Zhodani were planning on forcing the Imperium to choose between Rhylanor and the Jewell salient. Both knew the goal, they only argued over the means.

I think it's perfectly plausible that he would order all the regular fleets to congregate in Vilis an Jewell and order the whole domain on a war footing.
Agreed. However, I believe that Norris would have gambled with the scheduled reinforcements for those fleets. He has the example of the first two Frontier Wars to go by. After a losing war against the Consulate, both Plankwell and Arbellatra still left the Marches taking substantial forces with them. Indeed, as the information regarding Caranda indicates, Arbellatra's main concern was the suppression of disloyal Imperial elements and not a rematch with the Zhodani. Norris is less than a decade past his war with the Consulate, a war which he, unlike Plankwell and Arbellatra, actually won.

Assuming that Norris knows what we know and assuming that Norris is a gambler - and I think his actions during the early stages of the 5th Frontier War can support that - I believe that Norris would have diverted some reinforcements away from the Jewell/Vilis fleet concentration and towards the Aslan/Vargr fronts.

Let's face it, as written the Alien Incursions are implausible idiocy. Remove the IN regular fleets and Corridor could have still held out. The same holds true for the Trojan Reach. Realistically, Norris wouldn't have been forced to send reinforcements to either front because, according to MT's own descriptions in the Rebellion Sourcebook neither Vargr or ihatei could muster enough power to truly threaten either region.

Even if we allow that the Vargr and Aslan invasions did occur, Norris would have had enough regular forces available in Deneb and the trailing part of the Marches to successfully counterattack against both of the invaders and still partially reinforce the fleets watching the Zhodani.

The place where the story breaks for me is...
I very much agree with that. Even if he didn't divert any reinforcements, war production would have given him the fleets he needed to throw the Aslan out of the Reaches and the fleets he needed to clear Corridor of the Vargr well before Dulinor's Coronation Fleet reached Omnicron.

When in a machiavellian mood, I can almost see Norris allowing Corridor to remain in Vargr hands and thus provide his Domain with a nifty buffer zone that keeps the Rebellion at bay. (Although I cannot see how the Vargr even took it in the first place.)


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by rancke:
E]I agree with most of your post, Bill, but not this part. Norris may suspect that the Zhos won't come, but he can't know it for sure.
Hans,

You're correct, he can't know for sure. However, IM very extremely HO Norris does suspect and Norris is a gambler.

I strongly believe that the Imperium 'knows' what we know. They can look back at the history of the Frontier Wars and infer the same Zhodani grand strategic plan that we do. The references in the Zhodani Alien Module about the Consulate already being at a size the Zhodani feel they can effectively govern aren't in some secret GM's section, they're part of the main text. The Imperium should know about that Zhodani opinion, although it certainly shouldn't choose to rely on it.

The Imperium can see the same policy in action along the rest of the Consulate's borders too. From the Extents out to the Far Frontiers, thoughtful Imperial analysts and observers can see a Consulate that isn't expanding and hasn't expanded in millennia. It may meddle with the myriad of small polities beyond it's borders, but the Consulate only meddles.

So, IMVEHO the Imperium knows about the Zhodani desire for a 'neutral' zone and has probably known about it since the time of the 3rd Frontier War. The disagreement between the Delphine/Santanocheev faction and the Norris faction wasn't about what the Zhodani war aims were but rather about how the Zhodani were planning on achieving those aims. The Delphine/Santanocheev faction thought all they had to do was defend the Jewell salient from capture. Norris realized that the Zhodani were planning on forcing the Imperium to choose between Rhylanor and the Jewell salient. Both knew the goal, they only argued over the means.

I think it's perfectly plausible that he would order all the regular fleets to congregate in Vilis an Jewell and order the whole domain on a war footing.
Agreed. However, I believe that Norris would have gambled with the scheduled reinforcements for those fleets. He has the example of the first two Frontier Wars to go by. After a losing war against the Consulate, both Plankwell and Arbellatra still left the Marches taking substantial forces with them. Indeed, as the information regarding Caranda indicates, Arbellatra's main concern was the suppression of disloyal Imperial elements and not a rematch with the Zhodani. Norris is less than a decade past his war with the Consulate, a war which he, unlike Plankwell and Arbellatra, actually won.

Assuming that Norris knows what we know and assuming that Norris is a gambler - and I think his actions during the early stages of the 5th Frontier War can support that - I believe that Norris would have diverted some reinforcements away from the Jewell/Vilis fleet concentration and towards the Aslan/Vargr fronts.

Let's face it, as written the Alien Incursions are implausible idiocy. Remove the IN regular fleets and Corridor could have still held out. The same holds true for the Trojan Reach. Realistically, Norris wouldn't have been forced to send reinforcements to either front because, according to MT's own descriptions in the Rebellion Sourcebook neither Vargr or ihatei could muster enough power to truly threaten either region.

Even if we allow that the Vargr and Aslan invasions did occur, Norris would have had enough regular forces available in Deneb and the trailing part of the Marches to successfully counterattack against both of the invaders and still partially reinforce the fleets watching the Zhodani.

The place where the story breaks for me is...
I very much agree with that. Even if he didn't divert any reinforcements, war production would have given him the fleets he needed to throw the Aslan out of the Reaches and the fleets he needed to clear Corridor of the Vargr well before Dulinor's Coronation Fleet reached Omnicron.

When in a machiavellian mood, I can almost see Norris allowing Corridor to remain in Vargr hands and thus provide his Domain with a nifty buffer zone that keeps the Rebellion at bay. (Although I cannot see how the Vargr even took it in the first place.)


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by rancke:
E]I agree with most of your post, Bill, but not this part. Norris may suspect that the Zhos won't come, but he can't know it for sure.
Hans,

You're correct, he can't know for sure. However, IM very extremely HO Norris does suspect and Norris is a gambler.

I strongly believe that the Imperium 'knows' what we know. They can look back at the history of the Frontier Wars and infer the same Zhodani grand strategic plan that we do. The references in the Zhodani Alien Module about the Consulate already being at a size the Zhodani feel they can effectively govern aren't in some secret GM's section, they're part of the main text. The Imperium should know about that Zhodani opinion, although it certainly shouldn't choose to rely on it.

The Imperium can see the same policy in action along the rest of the Consulate's borders too. From the Extents out to the Far Frontiers, thoughtful Imperial analysts and observers can see a Consulate that isn't expanding and hasn't expanded in millennia. It may meddle with the myriad of small polities beyond it's borders, but the Consulate only meddles.

So, IMVEHO the Imperium knows about the Zhodani desire for a 'neutral' zone and has probably known about it since the time of the 3rd Frontier War. The disagreement between the Delphine/Santanocheev faction and the Norris faction wasn't about what the Zhodani war aims were but rather about how the Zhodani were planning on achieving those aims. The Delphine/Santanocheev faction thought all they had to do was defend the Jewell salient from capture. Norris realized that the Zhodani were planning on forcing the Imperium to choose between Rhylanor and the Jewell salient. Both knew the goal, they only argued over the means.

I think it's perfectly plausible that he would order all the regular fleets to congregate in Vilis an Jewell and order the whole domain on a war footing.
Agreed. However, I believe that Norris would have gambled with the scheduled reinforcements for those fleets. He has the example of the first two Frontier Wars to go by. After a losing war against the Consulate, both Plankwell and Arbellatra still left the Marches taking substantial forces with them. Indeed, as the information regarding Caranda indicates, Arbellatra's main concern was the suppression of disloyal Imperial elements and not a rematch with the Zhodani. Norris is less than a decade past his war with the Consulate, a war which he, unlike Plankwell and Arbellatra, actually won.

Assuming that Norris knows what we know and assuming that Norris is a gambler - and I think his actions during the early stages of the 5th Frontier War can support that - I believe that Norris would have diverted some reinforcements away from the Jewell/Vilis fleet concentration and towards the Aslan/Vargr fronts.

Let's face it, as written the Alien Incursions are implausible idiocy. Remove the IN regular fleets and Corridor could have still held out. The same holds true for the Trojan Reach. Realistically, Norris wouldn't have been forced to send reinforcements to either front because, according to MT's own descriptions in the Rebellion Sourcebook neither Vargr or ihatei could muster enough power to truly threaten either region.

Even if we allow that the Vargr and Aslan invasions did occur, Norris would have had enough regular forces available in Deneb and the trailing part of the Marches to successfully counterattack against both of the invaders and still partially reinforce the fleets watching the Zhodani.

The place where the story breaks for me is...
I very much agree with that. Even if he didn't divert any reinforcements, war production would have given him the fleets he needed to throw the Aslan out of the Reaches and the fleets he needed to clear Corridor of the Vargr well before Dulinor's Coronation Fleet reached Omnicron.

When in a machiavellian mood, I can almost see Norris allowing Corridor to remain in Vargr hands and thus provide his Domain with a nifty buffer zone that keeps the Rebellion at bay. (Although I cannot see how the Vargr even took it in the first place.)


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Let's face it, as written the Alien Incursions are implausible idiocy. Remove the IN regular fleets and Corridor could have still held out. The same holds true for the Trojan Reach.
Well, how about...

Both Corridor, Trojan Reach (and Lishun) secede like all the other sectors that secede. For various reasons, they fail to cohere into a united faction, falling into an anarchy of local planetary states and petty warlordisms. This allows corsairs and ihatei to go on a rampage, even though most worlds remain under their previous human governments, and in some cases their subsector governments.

Norris couldn't deal with that because:
(a) his position would initially be rather shaky (what kind of deal did he make with the Deneb sector duke, anyway?)
(b) he wasn't terribly thrilled by the prospect of fighting a multi-front war against other Imperial factions
(c) Trojan Reaches might have actually declared for Dulinor. While they wouldn't have been able to get any actual support from him, attacking his supporters would have turned out to have been a bad idea when he *won*.
(d) At least some of the Corridor warlords might have turned towards Vland if Norris were to push his luck.
(e) Despite everything, he couldn't *entirely* rule out the possiblitiy of a Zhodani and Sword Worlds attack.

Obviously this isn't compatible with canon, but would be indistinguishable enough from a roleplaying perspective. And it could be tweaked into plausibility, I think.
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Let's face it, as written the Alien Incursions are implausible idiocy. Remove the IN regular fleets and Corridor could have still held out. The same holds true for the Trojan Reach.
Well, how about...

Both Corridor, Trojan Reach (and Lishun) secede like all the other sectors that secede. For various reasons, they fail to cohere into a united faction, falling into an anarchy of local planetary states and petty warlordisms. This allows corsairs and ihatei to go on a rampage, even though most worlds remain under their previous human governments, and in some cases their subsector governments.

Norris couldn't deal with that because:
(a) his position would initially be rather shaky (what kind of deal did he make with the Deneb sector duke, anyway?)
(b) he wasn't terribly thrilled by the prospect of fighting a multi-front war against other Imperial factions
(c) Trojan Reaches might have actually declared for Dulinor. While they wouldn't have been able to get any actual support from him, attacking his supporters would have turned out to have been a bad idea when he *won*.
(d) At least some of the Corridor warlords might have turned towards Vland if Norris were to push his luck.
(e) Despite everything, he couldn't *entirely* rule out the possiblitiy of a Zhodani and Sword Worlds attack.

Obviously this isn't compatible with canon, but would be indistinguishable enough from a roleplaying perspective. And it could be tweaked into plausibility, I think.
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Let's face it, as written the Alien Incursions are implausible idiocy. Remove the IN regular fleets and Corridor could have still held out. The same holds true for the Trojan Reach.
Well, how about...

Both Corridor, Trojan Reach (and Lishun) secede like all the other sectors that secede. For various reasons, they fail to cohere into a united faction, falling into an anarchy of local planetary states and petty warlordisms. This allows corsairs and ihatei to go on a rampage, even though most worlds remain under their previous human governments, and in some cases their subsector governments.

Norris couldn't deal with that because:
(a) his position would initially be rather shaky (what kind of deal did he make with the Deneb sector duke, anyway?)
(b) he wasn't terribly thrilled by the prospect of fighting a multi-front war against other Imperial factions
(c) Trojan Reaches might have actually declared for Dulinor. While they wouldn't have been able to get any actual support from him, attacking his supporters would have turned out to have been a bad idea when he *won*.
(d) At least some of the Corridor warlords might have turned towards Vland if Norris were to push his luck.
(e) Despite everything, he couldn't *entirely* rule out the possiblitiy of a Zhodani and Sword Worlds attack.

Obviously this isn't compatible with canon, but would be indistinguishable enough from a roleplaying perspective. And it could be tweaked into plausibility, I think.
 
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