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Exciting new T5 novel: Fate of the Kinunir

Great Minds

I like the sound if it, should be fun! ;)

I think Hans is a great writer. A lot of my PBEM universe is based on stuff by Hemdian and Hans. Hemdian has written a Traveller Novel and I would like to see one by Hans. You write it and I will read it. Try to remember that some of the people here such as Hans have made tremendous contributions to the game over the years. Some may come off as arrogant at times but I have also found Hans to be very helpful any time I have needed an assist.

I love Traveller and I will buy Fate of the Kinunir. If any of you publish a Traveller novel I would probably buy it too.

Also Larsen's critique is well written and shows promise. You guys write well and know the game better than most here. If you got together and cranked out a novel I am sure it would be awesome.
 
Pretty much.

Poul Anderson, Isaac Asimov, Lois Bujold, Sprague de Camp, A. Bertram Chandler, Jo Clayton, C.J. Cherryh, Hal Clement, Alan Dean Foster, Keith Laumer, Murray Leinster, Larry Niven, James H. Schmitz, Jack Vance, and David Weber, among others.

Hans
I agree and read many of these same authors, but David Weber shouldn't be on the list if we are talking quality. :devil:

I keep hearing how awesome he is and I keep trying to read his work, but it is a struggle I often lose. Seriously, I don't get what you people see in his writing.

Now, on to the novel of the OP. I downloaded the sample and will give it whirl just cause, but I must say some of the reviews here suggest I am going to be disappointed. Too bad, I would like some good Traveller fiction as much as anyone, but I too have standards. Loose, malable standards, but standards none the less.
 
I agree and read many of these same authors, but David Weber shouldn't be on the list if we are talking quality. :devil:

I keep hearing how awesome he is and I keep trying to read his work, but it is a struggle I often lose. Seriously, I don't get what you people see in his writing.

Now, on to the novel of the OP. I downloaded the sample and will give it whirl just cause, but I must say some of the reviews here suggest I am going to be disappointed. Too bad, I would like some good Traveller fiction as much as anyone, but I too have standards. Loose, malable standards, but standards none the less.

Webber and White's joint work on Starfire is better sci-fi than the Honorverse.

Provided he's not asked to do plots nor characters, Webber's sci-fi is actually pretty good when written as faux-non-fiction. See also the Starfire 2nd and 3rd setting materials. He's also excellent at the technical aspects.

I find Webber's characters either unbelievably special snowflake, unbelievably ignorant, or unbelievably stupid. Steve White pulled that effect back considerably in the Starfire novels.

We all have standards. Since most of my quality authors are on Hans' list, I find it quite likely to not be worth my time to actually bother with even the preview. If anything, by including Webber and Asimov, neither of whom do I find "good" - both have character issues - Hans tastes are wider than mine.

I would encourage, however, if you don't find Hans taste to be similar to yours, read the preview yourself.
 
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I think that mindless adulation is every bit as bad for the Traveller brand as mindless hate and scorn. Here's why...

If folks will buy anything 'to support the game' or 'because it's Traveller' then there is no incentive to put out decent work. Why bother doubling the time spent on a piece to rewrite and edit it if it'll be just as well received (ie sell as well) if you don't? I could have finished Research Station Chamax in half the time if I didn't bother ensuring it met a high professional standard.

True, it's discouraging to read that a product was disliked by many, but it's a wake-up call for the publishers. 'I found this to be poorly written and riddled with typos' is a valid criticism and something the publishers might want to take note of. Apart from anything else, if you know the target market won't accept much more of a certain error, then you take care not to make it.

So negative opinions are generally useful for the improvement of the brand.

Obviously, I'm not condoning the sort of idiocy whereby someone goes on endlessly about a difference in the interpretation of the contradictory canon on an obscure subject. That's worth only a comment at most. But if the publishers put out a product that many fans hate, but they buy it anyway out of loyalty then there's a real chance that they'll be getting more of same.
 
I've been supporting Traveller since the Carter Administration. My support, however, is neither automatic nor mindless.

When a Traveller product is wretched and this "book" is most definitely wretched, I say as much. In the long run, honest opinions are more important than knee-jerk adulation.



An instant judgment? My judgment was not an instant one and was based on reading a forty-plus page sample.

That sample, by the way, was provided in order to "tease" me into buying the rest of the book and it accomplished the exact opposite.

Just how bad is the book? I'll leave aside the frankly lousy "nuts & bolts" of the so-called author's writing abilities and just detail a few of the many idiocies found in just 40 pages of the narrative.
  • Despite being capable of jump4, the Kinunir takes four weeks to travel to Moughas from Regina.
  • Despite there being a naval base on Paya four parsecs away, the Admiralty sends a ship from 7 parsec distant Regina to investigate reports of a pirate base in the Keng system.
  • Before begin deployed, Telson, the Kinuinir's captain, sees his long time XO promoted out of the ship, a unknown officer, Franks, with no shipboard experience appointed in their place, and an unknown computer program installed aboard his ship. Despite that, Telson waits FOUR WEEKS before bothering to ask or learn about Franks or the computer program. The program, the AI which will attempt to kill the players in A:1, even sends the Kininur to General Quarters for spurious reasons FOUR TIMES Telson bothers to quiz Franks about it's abilities.
  • Telson "knows" Franks has little shipboard experience because long term spacers "... sported darkened complexions from the inevitable radiation leakage off the fusion engines" and lacks "...deep space weathered skin..."
  • When Kinunir begins thrusting at 4gees to respond to a yacht's distress call, the wonky AI limits inertial compensation to 2gees. The crew takes their blue acceleration pills - like something out of the 1930s - while Telson admires the marine captain's ability to stand up under 2gees thrust on the deck by the airlock. Of course, the Kinunir's decks are parallel to her line of thrust so the marine captain, if he his going to be standing, will be doing so on a bulkhead.

I could on and on. Not a single page goes by with some absolutely idiotic description by the author or moronic action by his characters. For example, Telson, who allegedly such a superb tactician he's due to teach at the War College, handles his ship so poorly in a fight with a corsair that he thrusts for nearly 9 hours at 4gees and must then take hours to decelerate to effect a rendezvous with the yacht. Then, further insulting our intelligence, the ship's pinnace, despite having the same vector as the Kinunir prior to launch, can somehow effect a rendezvous in a trivial amount of time. The battle itself turns thirty years of Traveller ship combat inside out with lasers better than missiles at long range, particle accelerators nearly useless, missiles that somehow "spiral", and several other absurdities.



That old fallacy? Really? You must be Nijinksy before you critique dance? Gershwin before you can critique composition? Turner before you can critique painting? Welles before you can critique film? That's your sorry ass defense of this crap?

SHIT is SHIT and you don't need a degree to recognize it.



And, sadly, that's what was done in this case.



And, sadly, that's what was not done in this case.



No. There are not enough novels worthy of Traveller as it is.

This novel is nothing but shit, formulaic, fill-in-the-blank, mail-it-in shit which cannot even be bothered to acknowledge its own setting. It doesn't even reach the Young Adult Fiction level the TNE novels did. Once again, a novel has failed to do this grand old game justice.

Once again, I am embarrassed that a novel is associated with Traveller.

Martin Dougherty has written some great short fiction for T20 and I'm very much looking forward to his Traveller novel later this year.

Firstly, I found the snippet to be OK. Yes, there are bloopers and yes it's obvious that this must have been straight from a draft(if it was edited then the editor was seriously intoxicated at the time as admittedly there's spelling errors, words out of place and that golden chestnut of crisism... grammar).

However on your points, I'd have to check something with you. You mention both a problem and a solution. The ship is capable of jump 4, but takes double the time it should take, then mention the AI is faulty and has doubled the time taken to accelerate. Could that be a reason? (Page 10 of the CT adventure 01 The Kinunir does clearly list the specs).

Surely the captain was busy and once the ship is in jump, would there not be a myriad of military broo ha ha to contend with during that time? Fare point though and surely when the jump took longer than normal that would have registered.

The AI issues did seem a bit over the top, especially when he personally, takes the effort to manually shut it down, only to have it started up again because the XO believes it's necessary to run the ship.

All that said, what I liked about the preview(which admittedly doesn't do a lot to promote the novel with it's many issues), was the ideas of what space travel is for a Traveller character. The idea of the 'rigours' of space travel didn't really occur to me as I couldn't think of anything that would be taking an age toll on the characters other than waiting. (or is this another error of the author).

Overall what I like so far, is following the exploits on the Traveller map and thinking about the possibilities like the binary star system etc. Ultimately I would like to see what happens and for the price, will grab it to support Traveller novels if nothing else.

The point on writing something yourself, is not a fallacy. It's no different to if you build yourself a Go-Kart, then go comparing it to a Ferrari. Such a comparison is pushing on the 'impossible goal' level. However if you put a lot of time into it and are proud of it and most importantly it works for you, it gives you a different perspective. That's what I was trying to point out. If you expect every single piece of fiction to be up there with the giants, then your going to be disappointed 90% of the time or more. In order to appreciate the less tantilising works, it necessary to come from a road you've traveled yourself. Then you'll see it in a different light. Some people like Reggae, others like Funk. So to with writing.

Hey at the end of the day, if isn't anything close to what you feel is a REAL Traveller novel, then at least have a laugh and maybe it might give you an idea for a far better story that you can beat. I'll be there to support yours too if/when you do.

As a comparison, there's a mega crap Blakes 7 novel that came out recently, called 'Archangel'. It captured the characters I know and love well enough, but the story itself was terrible. Well perhaps this story here might just get better and surprise you but the details are messed up. At least you get something out of it, which is better than nothing right? Ultimately I still believe in supporting the genres I enjoy, so as to encourage more to come. (Yes we all hope for the most mind blowing story of all time with every book we pick up but realistically, it's not going to be that way all the time. For the record, I am constantly annoyed with Asimovs ideas on robotics for example and find some of his works boring in comparison to E.E. Doc Smith. However I don't write him off because of that and there's some really good stuff amidst the writing I do enjoy).
Every author is going to have there good and bad writings. Ultimately all I'm saying is what incentive does the author have to write something better, if no one supports the early work?
 
I think that MJD put that very well and I concur completely with what he said.



Off topic slightly, If you want to see more of MJD's work, check out
Through the Veil LAS (found in the Mongoose section of the forum)

It's a new Linked Adventure Series (LAS)

Dave Chase
 
I think that mindless adulation is every bit as bad for the Traveller brand as mindless hate and scorn. Here's why...

If folks will buy anything 'to support the game' or 'because it's Traveller' then there is no incentive to put out decent work. Why bother doubling the time spent on a piece to rewrite and edit it if it'll be just as well received (ie sell as well) if you don't? I could have finished Research Station Chamax in half the time if I didn't bother ensuring it met a high professional standard.

True, it's discouraging to read that a product was disliked by many, but it's a wake-up call for the publishers. 'I found this to be poorly written and riddled with typos' is a valid criticism and something the publishers might want to take note of. Apart from anything else, if you know the target market won't accept much more of a certain error, then you take care not to make it.

So negative opinions are generally useful for the improvement of the brand.

Obviously, I'm not condoning the sort of idiocy whereby someone goes on endlessly about a difference in the interpretation of the contradictory canon on an obscure subject. That's worth only a comment at most. But if the publishers put out a product that many fans hate, but they buy it anyway out of loyalty then there's a real chance that they'll be getting more of same.

It really does look as if it hasn't been edited at all. That is obviously the truth.

In terms of supporting Traveller however, that is very important. Personally I think Marc, is trying to approach authors and people he has admired for one reason or another to see there take on an aspect of the Traveller universe. A lot of these authors may not have looked at Traveller for years, where as fans like us probably take it all a lot more seriously(when it comes to canon on this forum alone, that's always a very heated topic and fellow Travellers feel very passionate about it). The authors may not share the exact same passion but perhaps have an idea for a story(good or bad).

My advice is to support Traveller, declare to the source, all the issues and ultimately assist in making it better. Also bare in mind that not all Travellers share the same views on Traveller as there's so many versions.

On this novel however, it's clear that correct details were not the authors primary concern and ultimately, the new novels to come can only get better right?
 
Another point in supporting Traveller novels:
There's just not enough of them.

Please add to this, but as far as I am aware these are the ONLY Traveller novels to date:

The Death Of Wisdom by Paul Brunette (A TNE Novel) 1995
To Dream Of Chaos by Paul Brunette (A TNE Novel) 1995
The Backwards Mask by Matt Carson (A TNE Novel) Began in 1995 and completed 2011
Gateway To The Stars by Pierce Askegren (A T4 Novel) 1998
The Errand by Matt Carson (A TNE short Novlette) 2011
Fate Of The Kinunir by Robert E. Vardeman 2013

That's it folks. Very sad considering all the amazing adventures I've heard about and that fellow Travellers must have had over the years. Confounded AD&D has had too many novels to count, but sadly Traveller has very few. Maybe it will take die hard fans to make a REAL Traveller novel a reality.

In any case, I keep supporting them because I want more Traveller novels, good or bad. I'll find something out of them I can use in one of my own adventures, I'm sure we all could.(Go the cheesy blue G buffer pills. :rofl:). In any case, they have far more value to me than an AD&D novel(I was going to say a Mills and Boon but that's being a bit harsh and as I can't stand AD&D it was easier).
 
There is however a fair amount of traveller fiction to be found in Freelance Trav:)

Very true AndreaV. A good point and it's available completely free fellow Travellers. I really enjoy the Freelance Traveller. It was also handy for choosing the Mongoose books I would and wouldn't buy(mainly because I really wanted an official Traveller book line to support).

Maybe some of those authors might consider a full novel or perhaps a combination of the best of Freelance could have artwork added and become an official Smashwords publication?
 
For those that were annoyed by 'Fate Of The Kinunir', would you like to see the excerpt from 'Shadow of the Storm' by Martin J. Dougherty, the next Traveller novel?

It's due out in September.
 
I'll post a review on Smashwords and put a link here when I've finished 'Fate Of The Kinunir'. (I'm hoping the downloaded copy is better than the preview sample).
 
One more thing. Even if you don't like the excerpt, at least view and save the front cover as it's by the late Andrew Boulton and really nice work.
 
I also have a Traveller short on my website (martinjdougherty.com).

We published Slices of Life under the Avenger/Comstar banner.

I still have a license to publish Traveller fiction, separate from the novel project, but since I'm working on that there seems little point in doing it independently.
 
In terms of supporting Traveller however, that is very important. Personally I think Marc, is trying to approach authors and people he has admired for one reason or another to see there take on an aspect of the Traveller universe. A lot of these authors may not have looked at Traveller for years, where as fans like us probably take it all a lot more seriously(when it comes to canon on this forum alone, that's always a very heated topic and fellow Travellers feel very passionate about it). The authors may not share the exact same passion but perhaps have an idea for a story(good or bad).

There's a limit to what I can say in reply to this, since I'm involved in the project, but I think the stable of authors was put together by Phil rather than Marc. Many of the people involved haven't had any involvement with writing for Traveller before. I suspect Phil knew them from other projects and called them in as writers rather than Traveller experts.

I personally provided a great deal of source material to the group (ie, I sent them everything I owned the rights to and could share without infringing a client's copyright) and strongly recommended obtaining the Mongoose Spinward Marches book as a concentrated source of background data. I don't know who made use of what, but I provided it.
 
My advice is to support Traveller, declare to the source, all the issues and ultimately assist in making it better. Also bare in mind that not all Travellers share the same views on Traveller as there's so many versions.

On this novel however, it's clear that correct details were not the authors primary concern and ultimately, the new novels to come can only get better right?

I think you're saying that you advise folks to support Traveller because it's Traveller, which is OK up to a point. Problem is, if everything sells because it's got that logo on it, there's no real incentive to put out quality product. Where's my incentive to make sure that Shadow of the Storm feels right for the OTU, if you'd be just as willing to pay for it if I handed in a typo-riddled mess that I'd not even bothered to look at the source material for? I can produce about twice as much drek in the same time as one decent piece.

No, I do think that fans have a right to decide what they like and what they do not, and to expect quality product. Conversely, the publisher does not have a right to expect fans to pay for substandard work because it's got a logo on it.

I'm not commening on FotK here - I've not had time to look at it. I'm talking about products in general. Apart from anything else, I would like to think that my efforts to produce quality product would be rewarded with getting repeat commisisons where others who had not put the same amount of work in might not.
 
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