Escape Velocity

[The Shaman]

Y'know, I've always taken the approach that far-trader mentions up thread, that a 1G ship achieves orbit on a world with a surface gravity greater than 1G by slowly gaining altitude in the same manner as a GCarrier.

But I think you've convinced me to make a change, S4!

 

[The Shaman]

Y'know, I've always taken the approach that far-trader mentions up thread, that a 1G ship achieves orbit on a world with a surface gravity greater than 1G by slowly gaining altitude in the same manner as a GCarrier.

But I think you've convinced me to make a change, S4!

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Too many CT players look at GG skimming as a way to sqeeze some profit out of a cargo run.

In fact, some ships, like the Type A2 Far Trader, with it's extremely thin margins vs. operating cost, almost have to skim in order to make a profit.

I always found that the extra week to travel to the gas giant for "free fuel" pushed the ship much further into the red ink. At 1 jump per 2 weeks, I can buy fuel and move 25 cargoes per year. At 1 jump per 3 weeks, I can only move 16 cargoes per year.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Too many CT players look at GG skimming as a way to sqeeze some profit out of a cargo run.

In fact, some ships, like the Type A2 Far Trader, with it's extremely thin margins vs. operating cost, almost have to skim in order to make a profit.

I always found that the extra week to travel to the gas giant for "free fuel" pushed the ship much further into the red ink. At 1 jump per 2 weeks, I can buy fuel and move 25 cargoes per year. At 1 jump per 3 weeks, I can only move 16 cargoes per year.

 

[atpollard]

Leave poor Jupiter alone! It is the worst gas giant in this system to refuel from. The darn thing is almost big enough to be a star - people don't suggest skimming stars for free fuel! What about Neptune - it is a much nicer gas giant.

For that matter, why go all the way to the gas giants? Just intercept a chunk of slushy ice and pump it into the fuel tanks. You might not even need to go all of the way to the asteroid belt. Find a Near Earth Object that works.

Please, can we just stop this insanity about skimming Jupiter!

 

[atpollard]

Leave poor Jupiter alone! It is the worst gas giant in this system to refuel from. The darn thing is almost big enough to be a star - people don't suggest skimming stars for free fuel! What about Neptune - it is a much nicer gas giant.

For that matter, why go all the way to the gas giants? Just intercept a chunk of slushy ice and pump it into the fuel tanks. You might not even need to go all of the way to the asteroid belt. Find a Near Earth Object that works.

Please, can we just stop this insanity about skimming Jupiter!

 

[Malenfant]

Well the Galileo probe that dropped into Jupiter's atmosphere in late 1995 detected winds blowing up to 550 kph (330 mph).

http://astro.sci.muni.cz/pub/galileo/first_science_summary.html

Winds up to 2100 kph (1300 mph) have been measured on Neptune as well. So that's not much better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neptune


So it'd be a hell of a rough ride, and if you do hit an actual storm then you're in serious trouble. It probably would be vastly easier to just land on an icy satellite or somewhere else containing water and pump the fuel from there.

(and yeah, it looks like in the latest BSG they were refuelling from a gas giant, and once they were in the clouds it looked like a pretty good approximation of what one would actually be like).

 

[Malenfant]

Well the Galileo probe that dropped into Jupiter's atmosphere in late 1995 detected winds blowing up to 550 kph (330 mph).

http://astro.sci.muni.cz/pub/galileo/first_science_summary.html

Winds up to 2100 kph (1300 mph) have been measured on Neptune as well. So that's not much better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neptune


So it'd be a hell of a rough ride, and if you do hit an actual storm then you're in serious trouble. It probably would be vastly easier to just land on an icy satellite or somewhere else containing water and pump the fuel from there.

(and yeah, it looks like in the latest BSG they were refuelling from a gas giant, and once they were in the clouds it looked like a pretty good approximation of what one would actually be like).

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by far-trader:
I'd add that one could attempt a GG skimming run with less than the required Gs at increased risk. You'd be making a dive instead of a loiter. Going deeper for a quicker fill and using the built up speed to reach escape velocity.

That would be a phenomenally dangerous situation, especially for something Jupiter-size (and it wouldn't be at all possible for superjovians and BDs, their gravity fields are way too strong) - the gravity gives you a hell of a speed boost, so you'd be hitting atmosphere at ludicrous speeds (the galileo atmosphere probe hit the upper atmosphere at 107,000 kph!). You'd have to have some kind of awesome heatshield, or really strong contragrav to offset the gravity so you can come in slow.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by far-trader:
I'd add that one could attempt a GG skimming run with less than the required Gs at increased risk. You'd be making a dive instead of a loiter. Going deeper for a quicker fill and using the built up speed to reach escape velocity.

That would be a phenomenally dangerous situation, especially for something Jupiter-size (and it wouldn't be at all possible for superjovians and BDs, their gravity fields are way too strong) - the gravity gives you a hell of a speed boost, so you'd be hitting atmosphere at ludicrous speeds (the galileo atmosphere probe hit the upper atmosphere at 107,000 kph!). You'd have to have some kind of awesome heatshield, or really strong contragrav to offset the gravity so you can come in slow.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by The Shaman:
But I think you've convinced me to make a change, S4!

There are definitely two sides of a continuum at work here. And, both sides of the argument are valid.

Besides the WD article and Striker rule, I've seen other references to "the 1G escape velocity problem" over the years. LKW certainly seems to subscribe to it with his new deckpans for CT.

Then, on the other hand, Mayday allows any ship with any M-Drive to land on a world. It simplifies things. And, the 1G-escape-velocity-idea was definitely dropped once MT came into existence. There's the SOM idea of M-Drive "overdrive", and tables within MT itself show travel-time-to-orbit for 1G ships for all size planets.

This is a GM issue. "How do you want to run it in your game?"







What I like about it is the flavor it adds to the game. It's some detail that makes the universe seem more "real" to me. The Traveller universe becomes a little less homogenized with this rule.

Consider that there will be some people that will thumb their nose at 1G vessel. The ride to orbit is just too rough (where as a ride in a 2G ship is smooth, due to it's better intertial compensator).

Trade will be effected. Captains of 1G starports will look seriously at a journey to a Size 8 world with a Class D starport. It'll pose a problem for the 1G ship that the 2G vessels don't have to deal with.

I'm also going to use the idea posted earlier in the thread that says the ship's inertial compensator must be boosted when the ship travels at more than 1G.

A 5G ship, using 3Gs for thrust, will have to put 2Gs worth of power into the inertial compensator to keep the crew and passengers warm and fuzzy in a 1G field.

If a ship with a 3G drive, suddenly accelerates to a full 3Gs, the alarm klaxon will sound. "Oh shit! Combat maneuvers!" Crewmembers will scream as they race for their acceleration couches.

Damage to crew and passengers is 1D for every G over 1G. Those in the paragraph immediately before this one will take 2D damage for the G forces involved in the acceleration.

Check this out:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0446605158/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-8114723-3293624#reader-link

It's a link to an Amazon page where you can read the first few pages of Peter Hamilton's book, The Reality Dysfunciton, Part I. There's an exciting battle that takes place right there in those first few pages, and in Hamilton's universe, inerital compensators don't exist. Read that to see what it would be like on a starship once the M-Drive kicks in with acceleration pushing 2Gs+.

It's a damn cool scene.

And, by using that rule, I'll be able to capture that type of exciting experience in my Traveller game.


Yep, I think this rule is here to stay in my game. I can't wait to start implementing it.

I'm actually excited about it.

It's going to be fun!

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by The Shaman:
But I think you've convinced me to make a change, S4!

There are definitely two sides of a continuum at work here. And, both sides of the argument are valid.

Besides the WD article and Striker rule, I've seen other references to "the 1G escape velocity problem" over the years. LKW certainly seems to subscribe to it with his new deckpans for CT.

Then, on the other hand, Mayday allows any ship with any M-Drive to land on a world. It simplifies things. And, the 1G-escape-velocity-idea was definitely dropped once MT came into existence. There's the SOM idea of M-Drive "overdrive", and tables within MT itself show travel-time-to-orbit for 1G ships for all size planets.

This is a GM issue. "How do you want to run it in your game?"







What I like about it is the flavor it adds to the game. It's some detail that makes the universe seem more "real" to me. The Traveller universe becomes a little less homogenized with this rule.

Consider that there will be some people that will thumb their nose at 1G vessel. The ride to orbit is just too rough (where as a ride in a 2G ship is smooth, due to it's better intertial compensator).

Trade will be effected. Captains of 1G starports will look seriously at a journey to a Size 8 world with a Class D starport. It'll pose a problem for the 1G ship that the 2G vessels don't have to deal with.

I'm also going to use the idea posted earlier in the thread that says the ship's inertial compensator must be boosted when the ship travels at more than 1G.

A 5G ship, using 3Gs for thrust, will have to put 2Gs worth of power into the inertial compensator to keep the crew and passengers warm and fuzzy in a 1G field.

If a ship with a 3G drive, suddenly accelerates to a full 3Gs, the alarm klaxon will sound. "Oh shit! Combat maneuvers!" Crewmembers will scream as they race for their acceleration couches.

Damage to crew and passengers is 1D for every G over 1G. Those in the paragraph immediately before this one will take 2D damage for the G forces involved in the acceleration.

Check this out:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0446605158/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-8114723-3293624#reader-link

It's a link to an Amazon page where you can read the first few pages of Peter Hamilton's book, The Reality Dysfunciton, Part I. There's an exciting battle that takes place right there in those first few pages, and in Hamilton's universe, inerital compensators don't exist. Read that to see what it would be like on a starship once the M-Drive kicks in with acceleration pushing 2Gs+.

It's a damn cool scene.

And, by using that rule, I'll be able to capture that type of exciting experience in my Traveller game.


Yep, I think this rule is here to stay in my game. I can't wait to start implementing it.

I'm actually excited about it.

It's going to be fun!

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
So it'd be a hell of a rough ride, and if you do hit an actual storm then you're in serious trouble.

Understood all the dangers...I guess I didn't express my question clearly.

From a GM's point of view, what type of rolls would you have the players make? What kind of mechanic would you use.

Just one roll for the entire 8 hour fueling process?

Roll for each "dive"?

What happens when a roll is bricked? Maybe use Book 2 starship combat damage tables to damage the ship?

I'm interested in hearing how GMs would run refueling scenarios in their games. Is it: "OK, it's 8 hours later. It was a bit rough there for a moment, but you're finally refuled. Now you're starting off for 100 diams to make the jump..."

Or is it: "As you approach the GG, your breath escapes you as the giant swirling monster fill the entire bridge viewport. Nav is getting unsettleing readings--distrubance from the planet's incredible magnetic field. Electrical storms flash across the GG's atmo, looking like tiny strobes of nuclear warheads detonating. It's time for your dive. The fuel cocks are open. The tanks are ready to recieve the raw hydrogen. The Engineer reports the fuel processor is up and running. Green light. Pilot, I need you to roll..."

I'm just curious how these encounters will play out in other people's games. Dice rolls. Possibilties. Ship or internal damage.

What happens?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
So it'd be a hell of a rough ride, and if you do hit an actual storm then you're in serious trouble.

Understood all the dangers...I guess I didn't express my question clearly.

From a GM's point of view, what type of rolls would you have the players make? What kind of mechanic would you use.

Just one roll for the entire 8 hour fueling process?

Roll for each "dive"?

What happens when a roll is bricked? Maybe use Book 2 starship combat damage tables to damage the ship?

I'm interested in hearing how GMs would run refueling scenarios in their games. Is it: "OK, it's 8 hours later. It was a bit rough there for a moment, but you're finally refuled. Now you're starting off for 100 diams to make the jump..."

Or is it: "As you approach the GG, your breath escapes you as the giant swirling monster fill the entire bridge viewport. Nav is getting unsettleing readings--distrubance from the planet's incredible magnetic field. Electrical storms flash across the GG's atmo, looking like tiny strobes of nuclear warheads detonating. It's time for your dive. The fuel cocks are open. The tanks are ready to recieve the raw hydrogen. The Engineer reports the fuel processor is up and running. Green light. Pilot, I need you to roll..."

I'm just curious how these encounters will play out in other people's games. Dice rolls. Possibilties. Ship or internal damage.

What happens?

 

[Malenfant]

I guess it depends on the games you want to run. If you want to have this sort of thing as sedate and routine then 'skip to the end', but if you want to have them coming in hard and fast then it'd probably be more like the latter scenario (if it's not just "make a piloting roll at ridiculous penalties, and if you fail the ship breaks up pretty much like the shuttle Columbia did").

Because really, unless you've got full control over your movement using your M drive so you can just come in at a reasonable speed, the 'Columbia option' is going to be very likely indeed. And even if you do actually make it into the atmosphere in one piece, you've got to consider the storms, winds, and all that stuff too.

I though this week's BSG ep was rather good for what a GG is like when you get below the cloudtops though.

 

[Malenfant]

I guess it depends on the games you want to run. If you want to have this sort of thing as sedate and routine then 'skip to the end', but if you want to have them coming in hard and fast then it'd probably be more like the latter scenario (if it's not just "make a piloting roll at ridiculous penalties, and if you fail the ship breaks up pretty much like the shuttle Columbia did").

Because really, unless you've got full control over your movement using your M drive so you can just come in at a reasonable speed, the 'Columbia option' is going to be very likely indeed. And even if you do actually make it into the atmosphere in one piece, you've got to consider the storms, winds, and all that stuff too.

I though this week's BSG ep was rather good for what a GG is like when you get below the cloudtops though.

 

[Supplement Four]

BTW,

This is another one of those things that you'll probably never need in a game...but if you do, it's here.

Check out pg. 48 of Book 6. On the World Data table there, you'll see the Escape Velocity needed, in km/sec, or all size worlds.

 

[Supplement Four]

BTW,

This is another one of those things that you'll probably never need in a game...but if you do, it's here.

Check out pg. 48 of Book 6. On the World Data table there, you'll see the Escape Velocity needed, in km/sec, or all size worlds.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
...the gravity gives you a hell of a speed boost, so you'd be hitting atmosphere at ludicrous speeds...

But we like Ludicrous Speed

Colonel Sandurz: Prepare ship for Light Speed.
Dark Helmet: No. No. No. No. Light Speed is too slow.
Colonel Sandurz: Light Speed too slow?
Dark Helmet: Yes. We're gonna have to go right to, Ludicrous Speed.
[people in background gasp]
Colonel Sandurz: Ludicrous Speed? Sir, we've never gone that fast before. I don't know if this ship can take it.
Dark Helmet: What's a matter, Colonel Sandurz? CHICKEN???

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
...the gravity gives you a hell of a speed boost, so you'd be hitting atmosphere at ludicrous speeds...

But we like Ludicrous Speed

Colonel Sandurz: Prepare ship for Light Speed.
Dark Helmet: No. No. No. No. Light Speed is too slow.
Colonel Sandurz: Light Speed too slow?
Dark Helmet: Yes. We're gonna have to go right to, Ludicrous Speed.
[people in background gasp]
Colonel Sandurz: Ludicrous Speed? Sir, we've never gone that fast before. I don't know if this ship can take it.
Dark Helmet: What's a matter, Colonel Sandurz? CHICKEN???