Education Explanation

[Imperial Planetologist]

What meaning/purpose does Edu now have?

Two characters, both Medical-3, one Edu 4, one Edu D. Both have the requisite skills and abilities to be called physicians, but one is more learned than the other in areas not otherwise represented by the characters' skills.

The Edu 4 doctor went to a top medical school and struggled mightily to achieve Medical-3, leaving little time or interest for pursuing wider knowledge, learning only enough to pass exams with the minimum score required and retaining little of what was studied that didn't pertain to becoming a doctor. Succeeding in medical school required a laser-like focus that left little to invest in other pursuits.

The Edu D doctor studied at a third-tier medical school on a backwater world but retained much of what she studied. She is a voracious reader with wide ranging interests. She met the minimum requirements to become a physician, but has a command over a broader range of topics than her Edu 4 peer.

Note that their skill as doctors is exactly the same. It is their edcuation independent of their skills that varies, as represented by the Edu score.

This is why a discrete connection between Education and academic achievement is a complete waste of time. The Edu score is there to represent what the character knows outside of the abilities expressly represented by skills, and it is a relative scale for comparing characters. It is also a tool for playing the game, providing a threshold for certain rolls or an attribute against which to test for success.

 

[atpollard]

This is why a discrete connection between Education and academic achievement is a complete waste of time. The Edu score is there to represent what the character knows outside of the abilities expressly represented by skills, and it is a relative scale for comparing characters. It is also a tool for playing the game, providing a threshold for certain rolls or an attribute against which to test for success.

Thank you. That makes more sense now.

 

[veltyen]

Note that their skill as doctors is exactly the same. It is their edcuation independent of their skills that varies, as represented by the Edu score.

I like and agree with your example... but I disagree slightly with the above statement. Once adequately researched both will have the same outcomes. For the high EDU doctor they are far more likely to be able to spot unusual rare or obscure conditions (having already touched on them and probably being able to recall them) much more quickly. Whereas the low EDU doctor will need to use their logic and skills - and a good database of medical information - to work out what to do.

Both will perform equally well when presented with a common problem (an appendix needing removal for example). The difference will be in diagnosis time required for unusual conditions.

 

[aramis]

Both will perform equally well when presented with a common problem (an appendix needing removal for example). The difference will be in diagnosis time required for unusual conditions.

Doubtful. The high edu doc is more likely to remember various complications, drug interactions, etc., and not kill you on the table

 

[Imperial Planetologist]

Both will perform equally well when presented with a common problem (an appendix needing removal for example). The difference will be in diagnosis time required for unusual conditions.

Doubtful. The high edu doc is more likely to remember various complications, drug interactions, etc., and not kill you on the table

I'm going to respectfully disagree with both of you and say that where this really plays a role is in the development of each physician's skill in time.

Recall that the liimit on skills and skill levels is Int + Edu (at least in CT), so let's give each doctor Int 9 as well - both doctors graduating medical school have the same ability, but the Edu 4 doctor has less room to grow his skill than the Edu D doctor does hers. If each character has three other skills-2, the Edu 4 doctor is as good as he's going to be unless he increases his Edu score through personal development. The Edu D doctor can gain up to nine additional skills/levels in the course of her career - that's how she's going to make a faster, more accurate diagnosis, since she is more likely to end up as Medical-5 than our Edu 4 friend.

On the other hand, let's say that Edu 4 doctor has only a couple of additional skills, with some room under the cap to improve his Medical skill in time, while the Edu D doctor has lots of other skills and never improves on her Medical-3. Now we have a doctor utterly dedicated to his craft to the exclusion of all else and a doctor who is a dilettante, dedicating herself to many different pursuits in the course of her career.

Either way, the interplay of stats, skills, and careers can tell you lot about a character's motivations and personality.

 

[veltyen]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with both of you and say that where this really plays a role is in the development of each physician's skill in time.

I think you've swayed me.

At that point however, there is no difference between EDU levels (for most functional areas, still valid for character description) apart from the second order effect of skill limitations.

That works for me. The higher EDU doctor has access to Medical-3, but is also more likely to have Biochemistry-2, Diagnosis-2 and other similar supporting skills that the low EDU doctor doesn't have the opportunity or access too.

On the other hand the high EDU doctor with strong interests in Law and Jump physics won't be any better at medicine, they will just be much more well rounded.

 

[atpollard]

The higher EDU doctor has access to Medical-3, but is also more likely to have Biochemistry-2, Diagnosis-2 and other similar supporting skills that the low EDU doctor doesn't have the opportunity or access too.

On the other hand the high EDU doctor with strong interests in Law and Jump physics won't be any better at medicine, they will just be much more well rounded.

While I acknowledge the internal logic of this position, I view the loss of Edu as a meaningful descriptor unacceptable. I want to be able to glance at a character, see Edu 7 and know "OK this guy/gal has a middle of the road education (HS Grad)", or see another character with Edu 12 and know "this guy/gal has lots of college". Your interpretation eliminates the default assumptions and requires EVERY character to undergo a detailed analysis of skills to create a full, rich and unique background (or to ignore Edu as anything but a max skill limit).

The baby left with the bath water.



Under the Edu=formal schooling assumption, an NPC with Medic 3, Edu 5 had limited formal education and, therefore, must have learned his skill by doing it a lot (a veteran unit medic), while an NPC with Medic 3, Edu 11 learned his skill by graduating from a quality medical school.

The detailed analysis and exceptional cases can now be left to the Ref and PC to resolve individually, without eliminating the useful quick assumptions.


At this point I am inclined to shake 'virtual hands' and agree to disagree.

 

[aramis]

A lot also depends upon the assumptions of ruleset... if using MT, edu may or may not apply on a given task.

Meatball surgery, no... Med and Dex
Ruptured appendix, probably med and worse of (dex or edu)
preping the surgery center: Med and Edu (knowing what goes where, how to clean everything)
Diagnosing an apendix parasite needing only meds once discovered during surgery: med and edu
Treating said parasite in the field without a pharmacy: Biology and Medical.

In TNE, it's always the same stat.
In MGT, it is always stat + skill.

 

[Imperial Planetologist]

A lot also depends upon the assumptions of ruleset... if using MT, edu may or may not apply on a given task.

The same is true in CT, frex, from Shadows: "Careful search (throw 9+; DM +1 per person with education above 9) will show that the instruments and controls are divided into three basic groups . . ." (p. 16 - emphasis added).

While I acknowledge the internal logic of this position, I view the loss of Edu as a meaningful descriptor unacceptable. I want to be able to glance at a character, see Edu 7 and know "OK this guy/gal has a middle of the road education (HS Grad)", or see another character with Edu 12 and know "this guy/gal has lots of college". Your interpretation eliminates the default assumptions and requires EVERY character to undergo a detailed analysis of skills to create a full, rich and unique background (or to ignore Edu as anything but a max skill limit).

Whereas I find that Edu 7 means "secondary school graduate" extremely limiting.

Then again, that is undoubtably a reflection of the fact that I enjoy "detailed analysis of skills to create a full, rich and unique background" in the same way that I enjoy analysing a UWP to suss out the particulars of a planet.

At this point I am inclined to shake 'virtual hands' and agree to disagree.

As am I.

 

[Supplement Four]

Note that their skill as doctors is exactly the same. It is their edcuation independent of their skills that varies, as represented by the Edu score.

It's the skill that matters--I agree.

At least, in CT.

This is another area where I complain about stat bloat. Stats shouldn't have an overpowering effect on the outcome of the task roll, yet, with more an more editions of Traveller, this is what we see.

In CT, an EDU-4 Medical-3 character is easily explainable. He's a doctor, and he's just as good (usually) as any other Medical-3 doctor. But, he's just not good at applying life experience to problems in general.

In CT, stats typically aren't referenced on the task throw. And, when they are, it's usually something like a +1.

For example, a typical throw may be something like: Throw 6+, +1 per Medical skill level, +1 if EDU 9+.

In other versions of Traveller, this type of thing gets skewed out of whack because of the influence of stats.

Stats represent general knowledge and expertise (including innate ability). Broad focus.

Skills reprent specific knowledge and expertise. Narrow focus.

Versions like Mongoose Traveller, T4, and even MT, to a degree, tend to "bloat" the importance of stats on skill throws.

One of the reasons I love CT is that its easy for the GM to control this because CT uses an unstructed task system.

On the battlefield, a crewmember is hit, and a medic needs to get the character stablized. I might say: Roll 9+ to stablize, +2 per Medical Skill level, +1 if EDU 11+.

Then, later on, when the crew starts to fall down sick with some strange disease after all went planet-side on an alien world, I might think EDU has taken on some more importance: Roll 10+, +2 per medical Skill level, +2 if EDU 9+.

The control remains with the GM, and he can best apply it to situations as they arise in the game.



When you have a blanket DM, usually stat bloat becomes more of an issue.

Look at the example character above: EDU-4 Medical-3.

In CT, this usually means he's +3 on the throw.

In MGT, where we've got the universal stat modifiers and stat bloat, the poor guy is only +2 on the throw (+3 for skill, -1 for stat).

This devalues skills and bloats stats. Medical-3 is no longer as good as Medical-3 with another character.

You can no longer say he's a good doctor but not as good in applying his life experience to other problems in his life--because the stat bloat changes things.

 

[Mithras]

I know this has becomwe a more detailed discussion of Medical qualifications, but I just wanted to say: I consider myself Edu B or C; Bachelor of Arts with Honours, but researching, writing and publishing for years afterwards.

Thats my view, anyway

 

[atpollard]

I think that Medical is just a common skill that has been better defined than most Traveller skills. The effects of 'Edu' on 'Trader' could have been discussed, but it is less clear EXACTLY what a Trader does compared to what a Medic does.

 

[atpollard]

I consider myself Edu B or C.

This is the internet, where everyone is "FFFFFF" - legends in our own mind, every one.

 

[BlackBat242]

My opinion:

An Education B means the character has a really good chance of making the "vs Edu" roll to know some piece of non-obvious information, and an Edu 6 means a much lower chance.

For what they have been taught, I look at their skills list, and the TL of where they learned it.

That's all.



All these people moaning about what grade level/degree compares to what Edu stat, or TL vs TL with the same Edu are way off base.

Edu is a game mechanic, NOTHING else! It does NOT, in any way, directly compare to anything in real life!!

It is meant to give the Ref a way to check (with a dice roll) for knowledge not covered by the character's skills or specific background, nothing more.




TL comes in like this: if you are having the character check to see if he can operate "techno-widget X", then a character who has spent both his childhood AND most of his adulthood at a significantly lower* TL has NO chance of success.

If the character spent either his childhood OR most of his adulthood at a slightly lower* "Personal TL"** (and the other at a significantly lower TL) has a -4 chance.

One with a slightly lower "PTL" in both parts of his life has a -2 chance.

One with the same or higher PTL in one or both has an even chance.

No bonus is applied for a higher PTL, and the Ref might even apply a negative again (Scotty would NOT have known Fortran, Cobol, or C++ without a specific skill in Archaic Computers).



*4+ difference is significantly lower, and 1-3 is slightly lower.


** I have the player roll a TL for the starting character's background (if that of the home-world/place of childhood is not already known). This is recorded on the character sheet, and the TL of the specific career(s) is(are) also recorded, along with which career a skill is learned in.

I find this answers most questions about what a character knows.

 

[Supplement Four]

All these people moaning about what grade level/degree compares to what Edu stat, or TL vs TL with the same Edu are way off base.

Edu is a game mechanic, NOTHING else! It does NOT, in any way, directly compare to anything in real life!!

Then, you don't get it. The rules are meant to simulate real life. They reflect "what would have happened had it been real life".

EDU is a game mechanic, but it used to describe a character--a person.

What's under debate is how that mechanic is used describe the character had he been a real life person (or a real life person with a logical amount of leeway from real life given the "universe" in which the game is set).

 

[Icosahedron]

Just to promote some happy smiley discussion - what do you all think of these?

Remember?

My opinion:

All these people moaning about what grade level/degree compares to what Edu stat, or TL vs TL with the same Edu are way off base.

Edu is a game mechanic, NOTHING else! It does NOT, in any way, directly compare to anything in real life!!

Then, you don't get it. The rules are meant to simulate real life. They reflect "what would have happened had it been real life".

Chill, guys. It really, really doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things, y'know? Have another slice of cake while I put the kettle on.

 

[coliver988]

Do you have carrot cake?

I agree - this should be a fun discussion. I lean towards the game mechanic as pretty much ALL the rules are game mechanics. Yes - they should simulate real life to an extent, but this is a game. If you want a full simulation, well, I already live in real life (and quite like it as well!). Traveller is a way for me to play in a different universe, and how close to reality it maps is up to the individual player and referee (one reason I gave up gaming a few years back was there were some players who seemed unable to make that distinction)

Now, in the Core, I would assume that education would be a standardized rating, sort of like the SAT or something here in the USA, and could map directly to some degree level. In the Marches, though, you won't have that distinction and I think it would have to reflect real life (err, game life?) education irrespective of a formalized degree.

Now about that cake...

 

[Fritz_Brown]

No bonus is applied for a higher PTL, and the Ref might even apply a negative again (Scotty would NOT have known Fortran, Cobol, or C++ without a specific skill in Archaic Computers).

Heck, Scotty couldn't even operate a Mac! He didn't know what to do with the mouse! :rofl:

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

*grins*

Heck, Scotty couldn't even operate a Mac! He didn't know what to do with the mouse! :rofl:

Well having been exposed to Macs at an early age (20ish) and having one now, the thing of it is...

You can totally control the Macintosh OS from like at least 8.0 (possibly earlier) with Voice Control, so Scotty is actually just talking to the wrong part.

Oh and I too, prefer the old CT method of rolling. Stat rolls are stat rolls and skill rolls are skill rolls and the twain shall not need meet.

 

[jatay3]

Wouldn't the whole thing be rather different with the ubiquity of post 3000 AD tech computers? People can be educated from their homes, free traders can study in off hours aboard ship, what not. The system we have now is based on mass-production lecture hall education. With the change in format, will come a change in its outward symbols, including "degrees".