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Education Explanation

Icosahedron

SOC-14 1K
Just to promote some happy smiley discussion - what do you all think of these?

EDUCATION LEVELS

1- Sub-human.
2 Illiterate.
3 Slow Reader.
4 Low Reading Age.
5 No Formal Qualifications
6 Acceptable Education.
7 Reasonable Education.
8 College Education.
9 University Education.
A Master's Degree or equivalent.
B Doctorate or equivalent.
C Professorship or equivalent.
D+ Educational Pioneer.

EDIT: Quote about Intelligence and Education removed, since it's likely to take the discussion down the wrong route! :(
 
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Edit: and we do need some happy smiley stuff here lately! thanks!

Just to promote some happy smiley discussion - what do you all think of these?

EDUCATION LEVELS

1- Sub-human.
2 Illiterate.
3 Slow Reader.
4 Low Reading Age.
5 No Formal Qualifications
6 Acceptable Education.
7 Reasonable Education.
8 College Education.
9 University Education.
A Master's Degree or equivalent.
B Doctorate or equivalent.
C Professorship or equivalent.
D+ Educational Pioneer.
Note. Intelligence levels are similar, except that they refer to potential achievements rather than actual qualifications. Ed can never exceed Int.

I'd put 6 & 7 as high school, 5 the traditional 3rd (or is that 5th?) grade education. '1' as sub-human seems harsh: education has nothing to do with intelligence as per the venerable Mark Twain quote (see http://www.twainquotes.com/Education.html for some other really good Mark Twain quotes on education: I just wish our politicians would read them!)

I don't agree with the education being unable to exceed intelligence: I know a few people with masters that are not too bright...there are all sorts of useless accredited degrees out there.
 
I use a similar scale. The goal was to match the Education Stat with an Equivalent Formal Education. I came up with this:

I set the maximum Education score at the highest possible formal degree.

Edu 15+= Ph.D
Edu 13+= Masters
Edu 11+ = Bachelors
Edu 9+= Associates

Note that Edu 8+ allows rolls on Advanced Education tables in Character Generation, so an Edu of less than 8 must represent no 'Advanced' education.

Edu 7+= HS Grad,
Edu 5+= Middle School Grad,
Edu 3+= 6th Grade education

Any character with an Education stat of 2 or less represent the bottom 3% (by simple 2D6 statistics). At this level, I would prefer to use 'Exception Processing' (AKA GM fiat) to create a good story about such a special case.

For the in-between values, I like to use a 'some College' type of descriptor. For example, Edu 6 would be someone who completed Middle School and attended some High School (but did not graduate HS).
 
I don't agree with the education being unable to exceed intelligence: I know a few people with masters that are not too bright...there are all sorts of useless accredited degrees out there.

While I too know high IQ people with little formal education (one mechanic I know has an IQ of 175+ and a GED he got after leaving the Army and learning to read from comic books). I would imagine a general correlation betweem Edu and Int. There can't be too many PhDs with an IQ of 85, can there?

IMTU, I would imagine something simple like:

"Increasing Edu up to Int should require half the normal amount of time (or gets a +1 to all rolls) and increasing Edu beyond Int should require twice the normal amount of time (or gets a -1 to all rolls)."
 
Here's the problem I have with assigning EDU levels to actual Educational achievements: There are plenty of times in the game where it can be reasoned that a character with a high EDU has no formal educational training at all.

For example: In CT, it is regarded that the original stat throw for a character, before chargen modifiers, reflect the character at age 18 or before. If a low STR is thrown and then improved in chargen, it is said that the character had some childhood disease or deformity that the character grew out of.

The SOC that the character has before entering a career is said to be his family's SOC. Therefore, a character for which a SOC C is thrown before entering a career is said to have inherited the title where as if the character had SOC 9 and received +3 SOC in chargen, he earned the title himself through his deeds.

The same goes for EDU. If you throw a 12 for EDU when generating a character this doesn't necessarily mean (although it could mean, if you want it to) that the character was an advanced child and earned his bachelors degree at age 18.





...But, what if the character's background indicates no formal educational training at all yet the character has a EDU 12? Let's say you roll up a Barbarian on a low tech, low pop world, where there are no universities?

I'm more of the opininon that EDU considers the character's ability to have and use learned knowledge while INT is the character's ability to have and use innate knowledge.

For example, if I wanted to see if a character could recall ever seeing a particular type of poisonous spider in his life, I'd make an EDU check. But, if I wanted to see if the character would look up and notice the spider on the ceiling, I'd make an INT check.

I'd use EDU for checks concerning what the character has learned over his lifetime: It's a measure of how much the character has retained and how able he is to apply that knowledge.

I'd use INT for innate IQ checks--to see what the character instinctively knows. And, how able he is to apply that ability.

Of course, EDU and INT overlap, sometimes. Putting together a puzzle is a good example. The character may have learned to put together puzzles well, which is EDU based. But, typicaly, it's the character's own reasoning ability and raw INT that should be used when assembling puzzles.



This is all just a long winded explanation and example to say that I don't think each level of EDU should be tied to a specific level of learning unless that actual diploma is not necessary.

If a character grows up as a Belter, in a ring where there are no universities--where the character was taught by his family with no formal means of education--and has a EDU 12, we can say that, although he doesn't have the diploma, his self education has been so good that he's equivalent to someone with a diploma.

Food for thought.
 
Here's the problem I have with assigning EDU levels to actual Educational achievements: There are plenty of times in the game where it can be reasoned that a character with a high EDU has no formal educational training at all. ...
...
I'm more of the opininon that EDU considers the character's ability to have and use learned knowledge while INT is the character's ability to have and use innate knowledge.
...
This is all just a long winded explanation and example to say that I don't think each level of EDU should be tied to a specific level of learning unless that actual diploma is not necessary.
...
If a character grows up as a Belter, in a ring where there are no universities--where the character was taught by his family with no formal means of education--and has a EDU 12, we can say that, although he doesn't have the diploma, his self education has been so good that he's equivalent to someone with a diploma.

Food for thought.

While I too know high IQ people with little formal education (one mechanic I know has an IQ of 175+ and a GED he got after leaving the Army and learning to read from comic books). I would imagine a general correlation betweem Edu and Int. There can't be too many PhDs with an IQ of 85, can there?
...

Those posts does bring up the point: exactly what is education? A barbarian growing up on a TL-0 world may have an education of A. But how does that stack up to the education A of a TL A+ world (assuming the barbarian's education was based on his world, and the TL A+ education based on that tech level). Then I could see an education F for a low-intelligent barbarian as his education would primarily be survival-based specific to his planet, indicating he knows a lot about the local herbs and whatnot, far more than the rest of the barbarians. He may not be bright, but he DOES know his stuff! So in this case, a low IQ could have the equivalent of a PhD.

Another way of interpreting that is similar to the social attribute: it is an Imperial-wide standard, meaning that the barbarian's education is the equivalent of the high tech education levels. Now exactly how he got said education could be interesting... This method, to me, precludes the low intelligence from getting a higher education since we've standardized the education levels across the Imperium rather than making education relative to local societal levels of education, and a TL-0 society could not have the educational institutions that a TL A+ world would likely have.

Yet another way of interpreting it would be Supp4's approach to using it as a game mechanic and not tying it down to a degree equivalent as per the initial post.
 
To borrow a term from another game or several, "Education" might best be thought of as "Experience". I'm with S4 on that. To speak against Edu as formal schooling I've known people with high Edu and no formal schooling past middle grade. And there are of course all kinds of honourary degrees given out with no expectation of the recipient actually having the knowledge of those who passed exams for the same degree.

So yes, Edu is not imo a level of formal education (though it may include that) but is more about knowledge and experience.

And given the skill limit of Int + Edu I would say the higher the Edu score the broader the experiences and knowledge.

I've never really liked the "8+ Advanced Education" table idea for it's implication of formal education only.
 
To borrow a term from another game or several, "Education" might best be thought of as "Experience". I'm with S4 on that. To speak against Edu as formal schooling I've known people with high Edu and no formal schooling past middle grade. And there are of course all kinds of honourary degrees given out with no expectation of the recipient actually having the knowledge of those who passed exams for the same degree.

Working at a university gives a different perspective. Many prof's (though not a majority) have very specific knowledge... but are somewhat clueless outside their area of expertise. Effectively they have an extreme skill level in their chosen field (Mathematics profs tend to be the best example for this, but I've seen this in many areas) but only a moderate general knowledge. While there is a correlation between knowledge (edu) and having a higher degree it isn't anywhere near a one to one mapping.
 
One of the problems with my approach, though, is that it flys in the face of the rules. CT does state that EDU is akin to SOC in that each level means a certain level of schooling--CT just stops short, though, of assigning a degree to a particular EDU level.

Still, I think my approach is more useful when actually playing: that EDU is a representation of the character's formal and informal eduction plus his ability to use that learned knowledge (and INT represents the same with innate knowledge).



Those posts does bring up the point: exactly what is education? A barbarian growing up on a TL-0 world may have an education of A. But how does that stack up to the education A of a TL A+ world (assuming the barbarian's education was based on his world, and the TL A+ education based on that tech level).

Here's another item to ponder: That of assigning the importance of TL to skills (not just stats).

Say there are two characters, both are Medical-3 doctors. Both have the same EDU A.

But, one is a doctor from a TL 4 world where as the other is from a TL A world.

For simplicity reasons (and the fact that something like this will hinder characters who move from place to place in a game called Traveller), the game ignores TL effects.

But, should we?

I know if I had a heart attack, I'd rather someone with modern medical knowledge go in and take care me than someone who's working with WWII era knowledge.



But, then, there's another way to think about it...

Maybe TL is implied with skill level?

So, if a character gets a Medical-1 skill, he's as competent as any other from any other background, no matter the character's background.

In order for a character to get Medical-1 on a TL 4 world, he has to have access to much higher tech (maybe at the starport?), or he'll never reach the Medical-1 designation.

This way, skill level travels from place to place, and one can be confident that a character with Engineering-2 from Pysadi is just as capable as the character with Engineering-2 from Regina.

Maybe there's an across-the-board certification system?





Or, we could house-rule it...

And, another thought--something that I've toyed with but never fully implemented--is some type of TL modifier for the character.

This would be based on the character's homeworld (or where he spends most of his time). Either the character would have an overall TL assigned to him (usually the TL of his homeworld), or each skill could be rated with a TL showing the tech at which the character learned the skill.

For example, a character on a Free Trader might have Navigation-2 @ TL 13. But, he spends some time on a TL 4 world, and that's where he learns Medical-1. Thus, his Medical skill is @ TL 4.

Using this idea, the GM has to change his thinking a bit when judging and implementing tasks. He'll have to weigh the TL influence on a skill check.

A TL 4 character with Admin-2 would probably have no modifier on this skill check, even if he were trying to navigate through red-tape on a TL 10 world.

That same character, though, would probably have a penalty applied to him when he tried to use his TL 4 Medical-1 skill on a crewmate who was showing signs of contracting some strange alien disease.



There really is no universal way to handle this type of thing. Which is why Traveller never really addresses it in any of its rule sets.

But...there should be a standardization implemented on character TL and skill use. The question is: How do you easily go about doing it?
 
Working at a university gives a different perspective. Many prof's (though not a majority) have very specific knowledge... but are somewhat clueless outside their area of expertise.

I think this is where skills come in.

EDU is the broad knowledge the character knows--the general stuff he can apply to many tasks and topics.

Skills (especially those governed by EDU) are the specific knowlege and expertise.

Thus, what you describe might be a character with EDU 7 and Skill-4.



This brings up another argument against assigning educational levels to EDU...

Let's say you're rolling up a Doctor using CT's Citizens of the Imperium (Supplement 4). You roll EDU and get a fairly low score of 3. Through chargen, you boost that 3 points, making it EDU 6.

This is average EDU, yet the character is a doctor. Being a doctor means the character has at least one degree (and probably at least three--his high school, college, and medical school degrees).

Yet, his EDU is 6.

This is a strong argument for me not to assign degrees and educational achievements to levels of EDU--because it's the game system allows EDU 2 doctors and EDU 12 barbarians.

I prefer, as I've said above, to use EDU as a measure of how well the character absorbs/learns information...and how well he can apply that learning when needed.

An INT-D EDU-4 character is very smart (high IQ) but doesn't apply what he's learned very well in practical situations.

OTOH, an INT-4 EDU-D character isn't so smart, but he's very good at using common sense and applying what he does know to the problems he faces.
 
On the whole TL thing, I've tried to come up with and use other methods of imposing TL mods on characters, and they just feel wrong and don't work. My preferred meme is that they (the PCs and many NPCs) are Travellers. They have been educated and skilled in the broad TL range of the Imperium during their career and have a good background in the full spectrum as it applies. So they don't try to give voice commands to a TL7 desktop computer, and when handed the mouse talk into it instead, or remark on the proffered keyboard "how quaint" and then proceed to code at 120 words per minute in some code that the computer wouldn't recognize*

Now "Item TL" does matter. But not for skill or to the character using it, just for it's own efficacy.

* and yes if you recognize the reference, I hate(d) that whole scene with a passion
 
'Education' as an attribute would seem to imply a level of abstract reasoning independent of raw facts known.

In my own educational experience, I studied and acquired 'paper' under Liberal Arts, Mathematics/Comp Sci and Architectural degree programs - and I learned more 'facts' in the first two years working than all of the time in college combined.

However, the ability to reason out a problem, to think outside the box and to learn how to learn can all be directly linked back to my unusual college path.

Thus, Edu (IMHO) represents what was once referred to as 'broadening ones horizons' and could equally be gained in a formal classroom or by a barbarian in the woods. It seems to me, that an 'equivalent' education level is useful for visualizing the difference between the bland numerical values.

I would also assume that in an interstellar empire, most 'education' would be formal with someone 'learning on their own' as the exception.
 
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I've always used this kind of idea / philosophy since Megatraveller:

(American system assumed, I don't know jack about England or other countries)

Edu 15+= Numerous Degrees
Edu 14 = Multiple Degrees
Edu 13= Ph.D Degree
Edu 12 = Unfinished Ph.D.
Edu 11 = Master's Degree
Edu 10 = Master's Unfinished
Edu 9 = Bachelor's Degree
Edu 8 = Associates / Technical School Degree
Edu 7 = 12th Grade Education / H.S. Diploma
Edu 6 = 11th Grade Education / General Equivalency Diploma
Edu 5 = 10th Grade Education / H. S. Drop Out
Edu 4 = 9th Grade Education
Edu 3 = 8th Grade Education / Middle School Graduate
Edu 2 = 5th Grade education / Grade School Graduate / Equivalent

What I like about this setup is the military guy out of High School can get out and get the Edu benefit, and each are 2 stages apart.

YMMV.
 
Me, I'd put Edu on a different scale. Considering it as a combination of both memory and general knowledge...

Edu 15: Peak human general knowledge; Best and brightest Jeopardy Tournament of Champions winners; at least a bachelor's degree or equivalent formal study; lifetime college students.
Edu 13: Typical multi-Doctoral; above informal capability. At least some post-secondary education.
Edu 11: Typical Graduate Degree; Typical Jeopardy Champion
Edu 9: Typical College graduate; noted Trivia Fan
Edu 7: typical HS Graduate's general knowledge
Edu 6: Typical 16YO (10th grade)
Edu 5: typical 13 YO (7th grade)
Edu 4: Typical 10 YO (4th grade)
Edu 3: about equivalent to a 7 year old (2nd grade)
Edu 2: about equivalent to a 5 year old (kindergarden)
Edu 1: equivalent to a 3 year old's general knowledge
Edu 0: newly awakened clone or AI programmed with language but no encyclopedia; severe amnesiac

This is close to, but not the same as, the DGP children systems for Vargr and Humans.
 
So they don't try to give voice commands to a TL7 desktop computer, and when handed the mouse talk into it instead, or remark on the proffered keyboard "how quaint" and then proceed to code at 120 words per minute in some code that the computer wouldn't recognize*

* and yes if you recognize the reference, I hate(d) that whole scene with a passion


Much of "Kirk & Spock Save the Whales" was less than stellar... and decidedly sub-par for experienced Starfleet officers. Entirely too much attention was paid to cheap humor, sight gags, etc and far too little to how those persons would really act & react.

Much disappointment.
 
Much of "Kirk & Spock Save the Whales" was less than stellar... and decidedly sub-par for experienced Starfleet officers. Entirely too much attention was paid to cheap humor, sight gags, etc and far too little to how those persons would really act & react.

Meh. I quite liked it due to that particular change. The Shat, and to a lesser extent the rest of the show, had a tendency to try to be a little too serious.

Sometimes a pie in the face is just plain funny. :)
From the same film, Spock - where you had a hippy pretending to be a vulcan pretending to be a hippy - was just hilarious.

Aramis's scale is perhaps the closest to what I had envisaged. There is a link between formal education and "edu" but not an absolute, at the highest levels you do need extensive formal education as well as an innate thirst for knowledge. Without any formal education it is still possible to get to B or C (though that would be unusual and quite hard to do).
 
Much of "Kirk & Spock Save the Whales" was less than stellar... and decidedly sub-par for experienced Starfleet officers. Entirely too much attention was paid to cheap humor, sight gags, etc and far too little to how those persons would really act & react.

Much disappointment.

I absolutely loved The Voyage Home. It's my second favorite of all the Trek films behind The Wrath of Khan (including the TNE movies).

I'm thinking the new Trek film coming up is going to blow me away, though. I quite liked J.J. Abrams' take on Mission Impossible (his first directing gig was MI:3), and I think that's the best of the Mission Impossible movies (it's more like Bourne and the new Bond while the others are so-so films).
 
As S4 suggests, I don't use any rule rigidly and the scale is intended as a guide, a Referee's reference. You can't hope to represent every possibility with a simple rule and I can see a situation where a university professor and a barbarian might have equal knowledge about a spider - where it lives, what its habits are, which plant or animal produces an antidote to its poison, etc. However, I can see another barbarian who is more interested in hacking people's heads off - this one would have a lower Edu score.

Certainly, the question of TL implications is a whole new can of worms.

I didn't equate EDU 15 with the highest formal qualification because that leaves no room for post-doctoral studies or the likes of Einstein who complete their formal education and then teach themselves beyond that level by means of personal research - educational pioneers.

If I roll a character whose EDU is higher than INT, I swap the scores over - I reason that INT is the capacity to learn and you can't learn anything that is beyond your capacity to learn. I agree that people will tend to have their education centred around a certain skill set and some people's education will be broader than others, but for working out those nuances you need a Referee, not a fifteen volume rulebook. Works for me, YMMV. :)
 
Albert Einstein could be represented by a character with Edu 7 and Physics-6.

I don't use Edu to confrom to some scale of academic achievement. It's a relative scale for comparing different characters, and can mean different things to each.
 
I don't use Edu to confrom to some scale of academic achievement. It's a relative scale for comparing different characters, and can mean different things to each.

Two characters meet in a starport. One has Int 8 and Edu 4 and the other has Int 8 and Edu 12. What is the difference between them?

If they can truely 'mean different things to each' then
  • the Edu 4 character is a professional sudent with a PhD in Phys Ed
  • the Edu 4 character is a Technical School Teacher with Electronics-3 and a very narrow education.
  • the Edu 12 character dropped out of school at age 8 to take over the family farm (TL 3) when his father died (but he reads a lot - like Abe Lincoln)
  • the Edu 12 character is a Doctor (MD)
What meaning/purpose does Edu now have?

[This is not a personal attack, I am trying to understand what you mean and pointing out a logical problem with taking your statement a face value.]
 
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