Economics in Traveller

[MT++]

Here is the beginning of an idea that come to me while riding to work

Instead of the Industrial if Pop 9+ and Polluted, why not make economics part of the profile?

Here is what I have so far, criticisms, critiques very welcome (although I have no idea what I am going to do with this yet so suggestions there would be good too)

Starport
A-B gives a bonus to wealth, D-E a penalty and X a heavy penalty

Atmosphere
Various mods based on the requirements from original Traveller for Wealth, Industrial and Agricultural

Hydrographics
Various mods based on the requirements from original Traveller for Agricultural

Population
Various mods based on the requirements from original Traveller for Industrial and Agricultural

Government
Various mods based on the requirements from original Traveller for Industrial, Agricultural, as well as Market type and Corruption

Law Level
Mods for wealth, corruption and market

Tech Level
Mods for Industrial, Agricultural, as well as Market type and Corruption

Agricultural Industrial Wealth
1- Dependent Undeveloped Destitute
2-4 Non-Agric Non-Industrial Poor
5-9 No Rating No Rating No Rating
10-12 Agricultural Industrial Rich
13+ Breadbasket Massive Wealthy

Market Corruption
1- Laissez-Faire Scrupulous
2-4 Market Honest
5-9 Mixed Cronyism
10-12 Planned Corrupt
13+ Controlled Crooked

 

[Rodina]

I like the idea, though, and you bring up some good factors. I'll think on it more.

You might also consider a bracket for how well distributed a society's wealth is... i.e., narrowly controlled (e.g., modern Colombia or the Soviet Union), strong upper middle income (e.g., modern Shanghai), broad middle class (e.g., fifties American (NB: I know this is a myth, but it describes the ideal)), near even distribution.

 

[trader jim]

how about this for economics in traveller - Trader Jims always broke - no matter what world hes on!!!

 

[matrix cypher]

Originally posted by trader jim:
how about this for economics in traveller - Trader Jims always broke - no matter what world hes on!!!

its that addiction to coffee juice..

 

[trader jim]

scott --O HO, whats this, a "rooky" taking "pot shots" at the "Ol Man" and him with only 10 posts?? - Mighty Brave son, Mighty Brave!!!
well.....Ol Trader jim likes that in a rooky, shows hes got "stuff"!!!! need a job?? well start you out as a Bouncer in the "Anchor and Planet" at 1 gold credit per hour, hows that???

 

[matrix cypher]

Originally posted by trader jim:
scott --O HO, whats this, a "rooky" taking "pot shots" at the "Ol Man" and him with only 10 posts?? - Mighty Brave son, Mighty Brave!!!
well.....Ol Trader jim likes that in a rooky, shows hes got "stuff"!!!! need a job?? well start you out as a Bouncer in the "Anchor and Planet" at 1 gold credit per hour, hows that???

Ill take it!!!!!!

(ive been a lurker for a while)

 

[matrix cypher]

Taking recriuts for Trader Jims Mercinary Corps THE TJMC. Undecided..... here have another beer or twelve....thats better.... oh you cant hold the pen straight... well just touch your thumprint to this pad.... there now that great...feeling a little tired... here have a seat here. *zzzzzzzz* ( in the shuttle heading for basic training)

Any one else up for some free beer??

 

[trader jim]

scott - i do like your thinking - after your shift - come on over to my table and meet the boys- we were going to roll up a few new characters, and have a HavaCola or two.

 

[matrix cypher]

Originally posted by trader jim:
scott - i do like your thinking - after your shift - come on over to my table and meet the boys- we were going to roll up a few new characters, and have a HavaCola or two.

huh??..... sure thing boss.

 

[matrix cypher]

havacola..... mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[matrix cypher]

first thing we need is big guns then some training.

Oh and make REALY BBBBBBIIIIIIGGGGG GUNS.

trainin is fer sissies.....

OJT with guns. If ya live. ya pass.

Note prior experiance helpful, but not need.

Whiners get Target Duty,

 

[trader jim]

NEEDED - 237 Billion Imperial Gold Credits - willing to set up meetings with all Banker and MONEY lenders - top intrest paid back on loans -
see Trader Jim

 

[trader jim]

forget the loan - dont need it - war was call off - no intrest.....

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by MT++:
Market Corruption
1- Laissez-Faire Scrupulous
2-4 Market Honest
5-9 Mixed Cronyism
10-12 Planned Corrupt
13+ Controlled Crooked

I just want someone to explain what "Mixed Cronyism", and "Planned Corrupt" are, etc.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:I just want someone to explain what "Mixed Cronyism", "Planned Corrupt" are, etc.

I don't know about Cronyism, but I think that MT++ holds the view that ALL planned economies are corrupt.

IMHO, The true question is not whether the economy is Planned or not, but WHO plans it. In a Stalinist system (USSR and its likes), economy is "planned" by a beurocratic caste (often called "Apparatchiks") with no input from the masses; this kind of government is, in Traveller terms, somewhere between an Impersonal Beurocracy and an Oligarchy, and IS corrupt.

But not all governments in the future need a Market economy to be democratic; various types of neo-tribalism, anarchism, anarcho-syndicalism and democratic (decentralised) socialism are possible - These are the Participant Democracy and No Government Traveller options.

So IMHO, corruption should be a function of government type (and its input from the masses, if any), not of the economy type.

 

[veltyen]

Hmmm. I would have considered corruption to be inversely influenced by law level.

No point being corrupt if every one your've cheesed off is nuklear armed.

 

[Chuck Anumia]

I believe that Even the highest Law level planet has a potential for coruption either within the system or without.
Within the system you give bribes to gaurds or higher officials (to help supplement their incomes). Outside the Law system you pay those who know how to get around the leagle system (if you can find them).
There are no perfect systems of Law outside God's kingdom in Heaven. (just the facts of life)

 

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:I just want someone to explain what "Mixed Cronyism", "Planned Corrupt" are, etc.

I don't know about Cronyism, but I think that MT++ holds the view that ALL planned economies are corrupt.

IMHO, The true question is not whether the economy is Planned or not, but WHO plans it. In a Stalinist system (USSR and its likes), economy is "planned" by a beurocratic caste (often called "Apparatchiks") with no input from the masses; this kind of government is, in Traveller terms, somewhere between an Impersonal Beurocracy and an Oligarchy, and IS corrupt.

But not all governments in the future need a Market economy to be democratic; various types of neo-tribalism, anarchism, anarcho-syndicalism and democratic (decentralised) socialism are possible - These are the Participant Democracy and No Government Traveller options.

So IMHO, corruption should be a function of government type (and its input from the masses, if any), not of the economy type.

Not necessarily. In the case of the SU most of the bureaucracy were dutiful and uncorrupted. Even many of the leaders weren't corrupt in the sense that they were loyal to the government, not running black market ops behind their backs, etc.

In that such systems often devolve into a de facto ruling class but generally need fresh talent from the economic underclasses as population and infrastructure grow. That could become a "Mixed Cronyism" type.

On the other hand, many 3rd World dictatorships seem structured solely to fill the leaders' pockets. That is "Planned Corrupt" as opposed to Planned with an expected level of corruption on the side.

 

[kaladorn]

I think if we look at some of the 'cronyism' in the modern G20 nations and the ties between lobbyists, political parties and leaders, and corporations (and follow the money), we'll find that a planned economy is hardly the only place large scale corruption can arise. My theory is that corruption is an evil that plagues all governments as a function of time - as time goes on, they get more corrupt. Every so often, a crusader movement emerges to pin back the ears of the corrupt, thus resetting the scale or at least pushing it back. Then corruption grows again, slowly, over time.

Other factors influencing corruption would be:

1. How economically desparate are people? The more desparate, the more likely they are to be open to anything which can help them improve their situation.

2. Is the system constructed in such a way as to have lots of checks and balances and internal watchdogs with teeth? This isn't a function of law - the more law you get, the easier it is to turn everything into an illegal act, the easier it is to make everyone a lawbreaker, and then the easier it is for the authority's enforcers to say 'okay, since everything is a crime, lets focus on more serious ones... it might be okay to ignore (or take a bribe to ignore) A, B and C, which are less serious'. Since we've seen large scale systemic corruption in the old SU, in a number of democratic (allegedly) G20 nations, and in just about every other economic or political system, I'd suggest corruption ought to have an independent index.

Relating it to law level probably isn't a bad idea, as the more law you tend to get, the more sense minor corruptions make to everyone.

The free market only stays free by fighting off the natural human instinct to do things to advantage (for groups to get together and price fix, to form monopolies, to gouge their customers, to run their competitors out of business using things like IP law instead of business acumen, etc). The market stays free by having its own powerful watchdogs who have teeth and are willing to use them. This is a balance of power thing. People will naturally try to bend any economic situation to their advantage, so you need someone else watching for that and trying to bend it back (and doing so must be to *their* advantage).

Thus government type may play a role, but not be a determiner. Certainly, the larger and more impersonal the bureaucracy, the more easily corruption occurs. But I can actually conceive of a dedicated Civil Service (I've known some real honest and hard working Civil Servants, of course they admit there are a lot of the other kind) Bureaucracy where corruption is not tolerated and where checks and balances keep any natural growth of such practices in check. At the same time, I can imagine an utterly corrupt participating democracy. So government type should at most have a modifier index to corruption, perhaps giving a +1 here or there (types 8 and 9, perhaps some of the higher ones) and maybe a -1 for type 5, since the competence aspect of Feudal Technocracy kinds of militates against corruption. That's about as far as I would go. A corruption rating might not be too bad of an addition to the standard UWP though. Of course, for Balkanized worlds, you'd have ratings on a per-polity basis.

FWIW, I can also see someplace like modern China as a non-charismatic dictatorship, an oligarchy, a civil service bureaucracy, etc. Any such government could fit a variety of these descriptions, depending on how you look at it or choose to describe it.

 

[veltyen]

as time goes on, they get more corrupt. Every so often, a crusader movement emerges to pin back the ears of the corrupt, thus resetting the scale or at least pushing it back. Then corruption grows again, slowly, over time.

Who do you think you are, Jefferson?

What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.
Jefferson, Thomas
1743-1826 Third President of the USA

A full revolution/political rebuild every 50 years or so I would consider optimal. Most western countries are overdue to a greater or lesser extent.