Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
This sounds interesting.
How does this work out with an actual jump drive?
How does this work out with an actual jump drive?
Economic Ramifications of Collector Jump on the Tramp Trade
- Thread starter Ackehece
- Start date
Lycanorukke
SOC-13
Thats it. Thanks.
Brings the numbers closer to break even but still a losing proposition after the first 4 years. Unless you go with good spec trade or jump fuel into 'dry' systems and sell it at a huge markup.
Lycanorukke
SOC-13
Thinking on it a bit more, there are some possible uses _outside_ Impie space.
The K'Kree who have hang ups about enclosed spaces. Rededicating Jump fuel space to living quarters may make it more bearable for them. Of course given the cost of a collector only the 'Lords' would have these spacious ships with the Plebs stuck in metal boxes.
The Zhodani on their Core expeditions. Given the expeditions have to cross the space between galactic arms and the resulting dearth of fuel sources, having a fleet of jump tugs haul the expedition across the gaps without having to set up massive fuel caches would be of benefit. Esp at higher Collector jumps.
The K'Kree who have hang ups about enclosed spaces. Rededicating Jump fuel space to living quarters may make it more bearable for them. Of course given the cost of a collector only the 'Lords' would have these spacious ships with the Plebs stuck in metal boxes.
The Zhodani on their Core expeditions. Given the expeditions have to cross the space between galactic arms and the resulting dearth of fuel sources, having a fleet of jump tugs haul the expedition across the gaps without having to set up massive fuel caches would be of benefit. Esp at higher Collector jumps.
I agree that they would be useful to the Zhodani Core Expeditions who may encounter unforeseen difficulties*, but the space between the galactic arms is not empty - it is lower stellar density, but there are many stars there, most of which are low-luminosity red-dwarfs. The arm structure is a density-wave of interstellar gas, so that the "compressed" regions are areas of recent star-formation (and hence include bright and luminous stars spanning the full spectral range), whereas the stars "between" the arms in the low-gas density region are not forming new stars, and the bright luminous ones have long since died out, leaving only the dim red ones behind. The arm-structure is an optical/observational artifact.
* - (if that is possible with Zhodani precogs . . .
)
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I agree that they would be useful to the Zhodani Core Expeditions who may encounter unforeseen difficulties*, but the space between the galactic arms is not empty - it is lower stellar density, but there are many stars there, most of which are low-luminosity red-dwarfs. The arm structure is a density-wave of interstellar gas, so that the "compressed" regions are areas of recent star-formation (and hence include bright and luminous stars spanning the full spectral range), whereas the stars "between" the arms in the low-gas density region are not forming new stars, and the bright luminous once have long since died out, leaving only the dim red ones behind. The arm-structure is an optical/observational artifact.
* - (if that is possible with Zhodani precogs . . .)
That observation is correct and has been made before, but that is simply not how Traveller has interpreted rifts. Look at the Great Rift in Charted Space, for example. And Clifford Linehan's data for the Core Expeditions also includes a lesser star density in the galactic-scale rifts, though not as extreme as the rifts in Charted Space.
Only because they used (industry standard) 16mm hexagons.
12.5mm hexagons would have allowed for 10x10 to 10x15...
In the argument over the disruption of a fleet running about with collectors...
Can these collectors gather exotic particles dirtside?
An example of a trader, who needs to pickup his passengers dirtside, will be unable to gather these exotics, yes? No?
Have to be in space, perhaps. At a high port.
Might not be a problem for those able to afford a shuttle trip up, but what about those passengers unable to afford much more than a low passage ticket?
What about those lots of cargo that someone decided to not ship up?
Traders do 1 week in jump, then one week in port searching for passengers and cargo.
Again, hard to collect exotics if your gathering dust on your boots dirtside, assuming those exotics are gathered only in space.
Or, am I completely wrong in assuming 1 week in jump, 1 week gathering exotics, then going dirtside to gather parsons/cargo? (Or switch the last two.)
Just a thought that decided to move in; AAR later... maybe.
Can these collectors gather exotic particles dirtside?
An example of a trader, who needs to pickup his passengers dirtside, will be unable to gather these exotics, yes? No?
Have to be in space, perhaps. At a high port.
Might not be a problem for those able to afford a shuttle trip up, but what about those passengers unable to afford much more than a low passage ticket?
What about those lots of cargo that someone decided to not ship up?
Traders do 1 week in jump, then one week in port searching for passengers and cargo.
Again, hard to collect exotics if your gathering dust on your boots dirtside, assuming those exotics are gathered only in space.
Or, am I completely wrong in assuming 1 week in jump, 1 week gathering exotics, then going dirtside to gather parsons/cargo? (Or switch the last two.)
Just a thought that decided to move in; AAR later... maybe.
Ackehece
SOC-13
The answer is No. The Canopy (Sails) are space only and are damaged by even the slightest movement.
pg 383 Canopy Operation: Easily contaminated by atmosphere; it can be effectivelydeployed only in vacuum.
"Canopy Degradation: A deployed canopy subject to acceleration receives the equivalent effect of ten charges."
No, you are not entirely wrong. For maximum efficiency you would use ships boats or local tenders of some kind to bring cargo to your ship as it charges - thus saving you the week of ground time.
16mm hexes can hold 12.7mm cardboard counters at most orientations without issue. More correctly, you can have two adjacent stacks that are not lined up the same way and generally not have overlaps (but it can be a bit crowded.
12.7mm is 1/2"... which is the standard size of wargaming counters.
Ackehece
SOC-13
thoughts:
Collectors use exotic matter to charge their jump capacitors
black globes can charge jump capacitors as well
"follows that any event against a Black Globe which
sends hits to the Jump Drive Capacitors is the equivalent of
fuel and can also drive a jump," pg 379
drawback is
of course with the knowledge that an option such as the canceller exists even this flaw is overwritten as the heat can be dumped out the unglobed side.
skim a star (after careful calculations), ram an asteroid, etc
I assume it also works to power hop, skip, jump, etc...
it also does not limit the charge to jump only
QED: the blackglobe jump ship is a better collector ship than the collector ship !
Collectors use exotic matter to charge their jump capacitors
black globes can charge jump capacitors as well
black globe damage capture power is therefore also technically a collector jump ship with this option.
black globes have an advantage over collectors as they take in all incoming energy
they also have an advantage in that they can charge under fire and quickly
black globes have an advantage over collectors as they take in all incoming energy
they also have an advantage in that they can charge under fire and quickly
"follows that any event against a Black Globe which
sends hits to the Jump Drive Capacitors is the equivalent of
fuel and can also drive a jump," pg 379
drawback is
"The Damage Capture Power process is inefficient; only
50 percent of absorbed power is channeled to the Capacitors;
the remainder is expressed as a temperature rise in
the interior of the globe" pg 379
50 percent of absorbed power is channeled to the Capacitors;
the remainder is expressed as a temperature rise in
the interior of the globe" pg 379
of course with the knowledge that an option such as the canceller exists even this flaw is overwritten as the heat can be dumped out the unglobed side.
skim a star (after careful calculations), ram an asteroid, etc
I assume it also works to power hop, skip, jump, etc...
it also does not limit the charge to jump only
"Jump Drive Capacitors may be used to
support a Jump by the ship." pg 379
support a Jump by the ship." pg 379
QED: the blackglobe jump ship is a better collector ship than the collector ship !
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
<Devil's advocate mode>
Nice idea - but it won't work.
There has to be more to the jump drive than just charging the jump capacitor, which is why the collector collects exotic particles. Those exotic particles then are somehow used by the jump drive.
A fusion power plant powered jump drive must produce those exotic particles as products of the fusion reaction (which is probably why a fission reactor can not be used to power a jump drive). An antimatter reaction can likewise produce the exotic particles.
The black globe doesn't collect those exotic particles, it absorbs their energy and converts it to whatever energy is stored as in the black globe/jump capacitors.
It all comes back to that pesky line in High Guard:
By the rules as written in T5 I can not fault your idea at the high TLs where options can be built into globes.
All the more reason to lower the TL of collectors to 13 IMHO
Nice idea - but it won't work.
There has to be more to the jump drive than just charging the jump capacitor, which is why the collector collects exotic particles. Those exotic particles then are somehow used by the jump drive.
A fusion power plant powered jump drive must produce those exotic particles as products of the fusion reaction (which is probably why a fission reactor can not be used to power a jump drive). An antimatter reaction can likewise produce the exotic particles.
The black globe doesn't collect those exotic particles, it absorbs their energy and converts it to whatever energy is stored as in the black globe/jump capacitors.
It all comes back to that pesky line in High Guard:
</Devil's advocate mode>
By the rules as written in T5 I can not fault your idea at the high TLs where options can be built into globes.
All the more reason to lower the TL of collectors to 13 IMHO
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Ackehece
SOC-13
<Devil's advocate mode>
Nice idea - but it won't work.
There has to be more to the jump drive than just charging the jump capacitor, which is why the collector collects exotic particles. Those exotic particles then are somehow used by the jump drive.
A fusion power plant powered jump drive must produce those exotic particles as products of the fusion reaction (which is probably why a fission reactor can not be used to power a jump drive). An antimatter reaction can likewise produce the exotic particles.
The black globe doesn't collect those exotic particles, it absorbs their energy and converts it to whatever energy is stored as in the black globe/jump capacitors.
It all comes back to that pesky line in High Guard:
</Devil's advocate mode>
By the rules as written in T5 I can not fault your idea at the high TLs where options can be built into globes.
All the more reason to lower the TL of collectors to 13 IMHO
That pesky line is not in T5 nor is there a requirement for fuel for the collector in T5. (please see quote later in this
)The bigger issues is balancing the incoming damage with power needs and the potential to blow yourself up! Don't want to overload the globe or cook the crew... Those options exist at TL17 (is why disintegraters appear around then as well. )
so the result remains... collector jump or globe jump... both available at TL17, in fact Globe would be one level sooner... and thus would supersede the collector ships???
So yes... maybe lower collectors... or treat it as exotic alien tech
The example in the book covers using globe energy as fuel
Pg 379
"A 1000-ton ship with a Jump-4 drive requires 400 tons of
fuel through its power plant to produce the 4000 EP necessary
to power a Jump-4,
leads to this:
"It follows that any event against a Black Globe which
sends hits to the Jump Drive Capacitors is the equivalent of
fuel and can also drive a jump, such as:
Impact by a 21-ton object at Speed-14 = 4116 hits
Two direct hits by strategic nuclear weapons= 4200 hits"
sends hits to the Jump Drive Capacitors is the equivalent of
fuel and can also drive a jump, such as:
Impact by a 21-ton object at Speed-14 = 4116 hits
Two direct hits by strategic nuclear weapons= 4200 hits"
of course there is always this that could be done....
If organic collectors are possible and are outside the usual technology level building blocks.
"several TL 7+ races have been discovered using Jump via an organism. The Imperial Government has interred these sophont groups and interdicted their worlds."
"Collectors are organic in nature and grow for lifeforms that live in space. Can be fitted to standard jump drives via a capacitor bank, if removed from creature the creature dies."
"Hunting of OJC is prohibited within the Imperium as the creatures are protected as a Endangered Species."
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Like I said, I can not fault the idea, the option for black globe energy as fuel obviously means it is capable of producing the exotic particles needed to make the jump drive work too :devil:
I'm not too clear on how many options you can pick, or what adding options does to base TL or TL stage.
It also re-raises the question as to why you can't have a fission plant powering a black globe jump fuel system
Love your bio-ship idea by the way, that is going straight into my game this week
And I have to raise this question - shouldn't there be a way for psionic energy to power jump drives too :CoW:
I'm not too clear on how many options you can pick, or what adding options does to base TL or TL stage.
It also re-raises the question as to why you can't have a fission plant powering a black globe jump fuel system
Love your bio-ship idea by the way, that is going straight into my game this week
And I have to raise this question - shouldn't there be a way for psionic energy to power jump drives too :CoW:
Ackehece
SOC-13
It looks like adding options basically adds 1 tech level per option if we accept that enhancers for vehicles would be a good model. (section G Page 260)
so far have not found one...
Black globes are psi invisible... aka Psi Goes right through them...
Yes that means your teleporting Zho Commandos can teleport onto the bridge of a black globed ship....
I guess if the ships mind is psionic and has the teleportation skill and a clair"yourwordhere" skill to know it's surrounding... it should be technically possible to define the starship as it's body
That's a question that I raised in a CotI thread back under the T5.00 rules about 2 years ago. The T5.09 rules-revision are better worded under the globes section, but the above question still has not been explicitly answered.
Adding one Option per TL +1 seems reasonable, but some of the options seem as if they might simply be operative if there is a set pre-existing condition. (e.g. If your ship has a jump grid, then the globe-field can follow the hull-contour. Is that a stage-effects option, or is it just the case for any ship that happens to have the hull-gridwork installed)?
