Yes, and eventually unusable. I guess you missed the point of his post...
Dyson Sphere and 100D Jump Limit
- Thread starter DaveChase
- Start date
Yes, and eventually unusable. I guess you missed the point of his post...
1. Who said PCs were "in their right mind"?
2. The sphere would give off the *full* energy of the star in infrared. That alone would be worth scientists going to investigate.
Interesting problem with this: Even *atoms* (being matter) would have a 100D limit. You would certainly intersect atoms within a *very* short distance.
Many dwarf stars are expected to do so as well, so it's not THAT big an issue. The difference will be the radiated wavelengths. deeper into the far infrared due to cooler temps.
Apparently only objects with a bigger volume than the ship interferes with jumps. And don't ask me about being inside the 100 diameter limit of the galaxy. No answer has ever been provided for that one.Interesting problem with this: Even *atoms* (being matter) would have a 100D limit. You would certainly intersect atoms within a *very* short distance.
Hans
Yes, but...
By triangulating from a few systems, they'll know exactly where it is. That combined with the luminosity & spectrum will yield an object that's very cool (in stellar terms), but at the full luminosity of the hidden star. *Way* outside the values any stellar theory would predict. It *would* be that big an issue.
[Also, for Spike's idea of trapping the energy inside the sphere, that would heat the star, causing it to run-away and nova. Not good.]
Yes, as I originally stated...
Interesting problem with this: Even *atoms* (being matter) would have a 100D limit. You would certainly intersect atoms within a *very* short distance.
Apparently, that rule got the heave-ho in the two subsequent editions of Trav (D20 & MGT) so he must have changed his mind or, didn't want to institute the GT rule.
That would be nice[*]. Any chance of an official statement from Mongoose?
[*] Actually, now that I've worked with jump masking for some time, I've come to believe that it actually improves the setting. Or rather, has the potential to improve the setting if it is actually USED by the writers. Since adveture writers consistently ignore even the existence of jump shadowing, let alone masking, it would be nice to know that I can ignore it with a clean conscience too. 
Hans
The only "official" statement is that they didn't include it as a rule. Neither did D20 Trav. So, if it isn't written as a rule, it isn't a rule. Pretty straightforward.
I REALLY don't think they will bother issuing statements for non-rules.
Absence of evidence is not proof of absence. What would it hurt to let us know that they (and Marc) had thought it over and made an actual decision one way or the other?The only "official" statement is that they didn't include it as a rule. Neither did D20 Trav. So, if it isn't written as a rule, it isn't a rule. Pretty straightforward.
I REALLY don't think they will bother issuing statements for non-rules.
Hans
??? There is no such in MGT. Pretty simple. Would you like them to make a statement that Jump drives can't teleport individuals to heaven? Ya know, they might as there is no rule stating they don't...
Be serious.Marc never put his name to a rule like that. Why would he make a public statement that he thought it over?
Because people are arguing about it and it would be a nice friendly fan-service type thing to do???? There is no such in MGT. Pretty simple. Would you like them to make a statement that Jump drives can't teleport individuals to heaven? Ya know, they might as there is no rule stating they don't...
Marc never put his name to a rule like that. Why would he make a public statement that he thought it over?
Hans
People argue about a million things with Trav. Not enough time in the day for companies to comment on non rules.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
My understanding of the whole jump shadow/mask thing is that Marc did indeed publish on it in the original rules (granted it is only implied, but was inferred by many) and later expand and more explicitly stated it in his article in JTAS about Jump.
The inference derives from the rules stating:
1 - You always precipitate from Jump Space at a minimum 100d of any world (the same as the rules in T20 and MGT if I'm not mistaken) .
And in the JTAS article:
2 - Jump Space maps directly 1:1 with normal space and any path a ship takes through Jump Space maps directly to normal space. This is I believe the source of the inference (if not explicitly stated in the JTAS article) that jumps to a world within its star's 100d will cause you to precipitate at that further distance. And from that it's clear that anything (large enough) in normal space getting in the direct path of your jump plot will cause you to precipitate there.
The conclusion is, since a mass (larger than yourself, or significantly large*) will cause you to precipitate from Jump Space at 100d even if not your plotted destination, and Jump Space maps 1:1 to normal space, if there is any mass along that Jump Plot it will cause you to precipitate there at its 100d mark.
* more inference, based on various sources
The inference derives from the rules stating:
1 - You always precipitate from Jump Space at a minimum 100d of any world (the same as the rules in T20 and MGT if I'm not mistaken) .
And in the JTAS article:
2 - Jump Space maps directly 1:1 with normal space and any path a ship takes through Jump Space maps directly to normal space. This is I believe the source of the inference (if not explicitly stated in the JTAS article) that jumps to a world within its star's 100d will cause you to precipitate at that further distance. And from that it's clear that anything (large enough) in normal space getting in the direct path of your jump plot will cause you to precipitate there.
The conclusion is, since a mass (larger than yourself, or significantly large*) will cause you to precipitate from Jump Space at 100d even if not your plotted destination, and Jump Space maps 1:1 to normal space, if there is any mass along that Jump Plot it will cause you to precipitate there at its 100d mark.
* more inference, based on various sources
Actually it works wonders. You can travel (Jump) 6,000 Light Years per Jump capacity of the ship.
Problem is (and its just a little problem) that the travel time to reach the 100D limit of a galaxy takes an extremely long time at our current Tech levels.
Also, a slightly troubling aspect is that some of the other galaxies are with in each others 100D limit.
But it is completely do-able.
Dave Chase
Correct. What is the mass limit? A ship? A rock? There's the rub. IF the rule were that, you'd have rules for the ort cloud... If you were logically applying the non-rule that is...
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I'm not sure the mass is strictly defined anywhere, just some suggestions and implications that it's anything bigger than you.
The only certain definition we have is "as small as an asteroid" since that's a valid target as a mainworld in a belt system. Presumably. But how small is an asteroid
As for the oort cloud being a problem, I presume you mean it would prevent you from jumping through it, I don't think it's a problem at all. The density is such that the odds of encountering a body large enough to precipitate a ship is nearly infinitely small, taking proper precautions. The larger bodies will have been mapped (and possibly even broken up) for that very reason. In most systems at least, or for the usual jump plots anyway. Provided you take the time to make a proper jump plot of course. Make an emergency jump, off on some random plot, out of and/or into a backwater system that hasn't had a full workup done, and...
...you probably still won't hit anything
Space is big. You'd have to really be trying to hit something even as big as a gas giant in the same system, or a star in the destination system. Trying very very hard So it's sort of a moot point. Except in those cases of deliberate action...
Say, another ship or ships bigger than you getting in your way in an attempt to mess with your jump.
Or of course referee fiat along the lines of "The week in jump passes uneventfully but it seems your hasty jump escape attempt has hit a roadblock. You aren't where you expected, in fact a quick nav check shows you only made it as far as the oort cloud of the system you jumped out of, and there is a large mass detected in close proximity that appears to have precipitated you. It seems to be broadcasting a weak comm signal... "
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I'm not sure the mass is strictly defined anywhere, just some suggestions and implications that it's anything bigger than you.
The only certain definition we have is "as small as an asteroid" since that's a valid target as a mainworld in a belt system. Presumably. But how small is an asteroid
Actually, thinking about it a bit maybe that is our answer and it's been staring at us the whole time.
Current definition of an asteroid is "bigger than 10m diameter" so if we take that then we have our lower limit. Any body bigger than 10m diameter is enough to impinge on jump space such that it imposes the 100d rule. So coming within 1km of such will interfere with jump space enough to precipitate your ship.
Problem solved, with simple logic applying the basic rule that's been in every edition
Marc's decision is obvious in T5: only a body equal to or larger than the ship can kick it out. ANY body equal or bigger can do so.
Similar threads
