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Do the Citizens of the Imperium Accept or Reject Piracy

No nation or world will spend more on defense than they feel a need for. So in a universe without piracy, defenses may be so poor that piracy be possible. In a universe where piracy exists, on the other hand...

This suggests to me that all polities will be in a continual state of flux, with their pirate defences averaging 'just barely enough' to prevent piracy. Hence the pirates will come and go, flourish and disperse with equal flux.

GMs can choose whether they play in a high spending/low piracy period or a low spending/high piracy period.


It's hard enough arguing when we try to talk about a common universe. Making the universe optional makes the arguments completely futile.

IMO, of course.

Hans

Only if the purpose of the argument is to win.

If the purpose of the argument is to stimulate thought and share ideas, then discussing different universes is much better than discussing just one.

IMO, of course. ;)
 
@ranke:

Tracing things

The science may not be lost and if one suspects a ship is stolen than it may even be used. And IF the combination of factors and number of ships build is as clear as you make it, then it might even work.

But:

+ The combination may be less clear
+ Some yards might build civies in three digit numbers(1)
+ Not all fenced goods are as easily traced as a ship. Actually most are not

As for the engravings etc: That is one of the areas where it's thankfully GM's decision

Details

All those details are undefined in canon (just like the tracing stuff above) so it is up to the individual GM to set the switches. With wordings like "each fleet has between 10 and 100 ships" and little canon on most ships deployment pattern the GM actually MUST make such calls.
 
It's hard enough arguing when we try to talk about a common universe. Making the universe optional makes the arguments completely futile.

IMO, of course.

Hans
Only if the purpose of the argument is to win.

If the purpose of the argument is to stimulate thought and share ideas, then discussing different universes is much better than discussing just one.

IMO, of course. ;)
OK, you win. I concede the point.


Hans
 
@ranke:

Tracing things

The science may not be lost and if one suspects a ship is stolen than it may even be used. And IF the combination of factors and number of ships build is as clear as you make it, then it might even work.
Oh sure. No one would go to the trouble of submitting a ship to a thorough forensic examination unless it arouses suspicion. However, it does make a stolen ship a risky investment, lowering its value on the black market. And I have a feeling that people would be shyer of investing tens of millions of credits into something that will be confiscated if the authorities ever find out than in investing in a dodgy VCR.

But:

+ The combination may be less clear
+ Some yards might build civies in three digit numbers(1)
+ Not all fenced goods are as easily traced as a ship. Actually most are not
Oh, I'm quite sure stolen goods are easy to fence if you know where to go. I'm also sure that the average value of random ship's cargoes is not enough to keep a pirate in the black. Which is why I object more to pirates cropping up on random encounter tables than in carefully designed plots to capture specific high-value cargoes. Unfortunately, targeting specific ships has its own batch of problems, mostly due to jump variation.

As for the engravings etc: That is one of the areas where it's thankfully GM's decision
But it's always the GM's decision. If he thinks the notion that people wouldn't try to maximize the problems with stealing their goods is fine, then that's fine for him. It just doesn't work for me. So when I make the statement that it doesn't work for me, it's rather redundant to inform me that it's up to the GM. I know that.

Details

All those details are undefined in canon (just like the tracing stuff above) so it is up to the individual GM to set the switches. With wordings like "each fleet has between 10 and 100 ships" and little canon on most ships deployment pattern the GM actually MUST make such calls.
Without wordings like that, the GM has to make the very same calls anyway, only now he doesn't even have a baseline to make those decisions from. How can that possibly be an advantage? Yes, I know that a lot of people think it is an advantage not to have text that they're perfectly free to ignore, but I just don't see it.


Hans
 
Ranke, that is wording from GDW publications (Fighting ships IIRC) on fleet size and composition. The official works are thankfully quite loosely detailed and leave a lot of "switches" to be set by each GM. All of the elements I listed are actually "loosely defined/not specified in canon" and have to be tailored for a complete universe.

Contrary to what some people (not you) claim Traveller canon is not over-detailed and leaves a lot wiggling room in almost every area
 
Contrary to what some people (not you) claim Traveller canon is not over-detailed and leaves a lot wiggling room in almost every area.
But IMO that is a bug rather than a feature. Because "wiggle room" simply means something that isn't defined yet. The moment some Traveller writer needs to define the number of ships in a fleet in order to make a plot work, he'll do it. Which is fine, except if he wiggle one way, he 'loses' every GM who wiggled the other way when they answered the same question for their individual universes, and if he wiggles the other way, he 'loses' a different batch of GMs. Wiggle room simply present a number of options, any one of which can be true for any universe, but any two of which cannot both be true for the same universe. And that's fine if all you're publishing is a tool kit for constructing universes. But the OTU isn't a tool kit, it's a single example. And a universe where the average fleet size of the Imperium is 10 is a lot different from one where the average fleet size is 100. The average fleet size in the OTU may be 10 or it may be 100[*], but it certainly isn't 10 on Wedensdays and 100 on Thursdays (Note: If this particular example doesn't work for you, simply substitute an example that does, perhaps average number of civilian ships plying the trade lanes).


[*] Actually, it's 62.5 ;).


Hans
 
Actually IMHO Travellers OTU IS a toolkit for building a universe. And GDW has always made sure to leave it that way. They could have easily detailed the size of all imperial fleets in "Fighting ships" (2-3 pages) but didn't, they could have given more data on a planet in "Spinward Marches" (say a "fleet factor" or "sdb factor" as part of the UWP) and didn't.

That is actually the big benefit Traveller has over other SciFi universes (say B5 or StarTrek), allowing each GM to tailor the fine details. It is a lot like a modern office building - The OTU delivers the outer shell and the technical installations but each tennant can customise office sizes and layouts by having the interior walls installed at different positions, use different lights etc.

It's the publishers and authors jobs not to break the "outer shell" by writing up to much details in a canon publication and GDW / DGP did a fine work throughout the years using rough numbers and painting major NPC's loosely(1)

SJGames OTOH did a bad job with some books, namely Starports and FarTrader. While they DO have useful elements they over-detail certain parts of the system (i.e the bribability of SCA officials) to a point where canon get's the DSA feeling(2)



(1) I.e IMTU Norris is gay based on him being unmarried, fulfilling his "duty to produce a heir" through a sex-changed clone and his "friend" that follows him around. In another persons universe that is just a sign of his dedication to work leaving him no time for marriage etc.

(2) Don't kick that pebble, in the big battel between X and Y it will cause bad guy A to stumble and...
 
Actually IMHO Travellers OTU IS a toolkit for building a universe. And GDW has always made sure to leave it that way. They could have easily detailed the size of all Imperial fleets in "Fighting ships" (2-3 pages) but didn't, they could have given more data on a planet in "Spinward Marches" (say a "fleet factor" or "sdb factor" as part of the UWP) and didn't.
No, they probably could not have detailed the size of all Imperial fleets in Fighting Ships. For one thing, they probably didn't have the time or inclination to perform the calculations that would have been needed. More to the point, the fact that they didn't doesn't say anything about their motivation for not doing so. Maybe they just didn't think of it. They did provided some details (E.g. number of ships in a Tigress squadron). Rebellion Sourcebook provided more general parameters (1000 combat vessels per sector, 8-10 squadrons per fleet). So did TCS and Striker (Basic economic framework).

That is actually the big benefit Traveller has over other SciFi universes (say B5 or StarTrek), allowing each GM to tailor the fine details. It is a lot like a modern office building - The OTU delivers the outer shell and the technical installations but each tennant can customise office sizes and layouts by having the interior walls installed at different positions, use different lights etc.
That's a bug, not a feature (An inevitable one when you're trying to describe an entire chunk of worlds numbering in the tens of thousands, but still a bug). Instead of one example that people are free to ignore if they don't like it, but will work perfectly well for a lot of GMs to spare them the bother, the vagueness of a lot of details forces every GM to duplicate a lot of work that they would not have needed to do if the details had been clearer.

It's the publishers and authors jobs not to break the "outer shell" by writing up to much details in a canon publication and GDW / DGP did a fine work throughout the years using rough numbers and painting major NPC's loosely(1)

SJGames OTOH did a bad job with some books, namely Starports and FarTrader. While they DO have useful elements they over-detail certain parts of the system (i.e the bribability of SCA officials) to a point where canon get's the DSA feeling(2)
The non-bribability of SCA officials is certainly a mistake IMO. But the mistake wasn't in describing how bribable they were, it was in providing a really implausible description. (Really, really, really implausible ;)).

(1) I.e IMTU Norris is gay based on him being unmarried, fulfilling his "duty to produce a heir" through a sex-changed clone and his "friend" that follows him around. In another persons universe that is just a sign of his dedication to work leaving him no time for marriage etc.
In the OTU, Norris is likewise gay, based on him being unmarried, fulfilling his "duty to produce a heir" through a sex-changed clone and his "friend" that follows him around. Any GM is free to establish that in his TU it's just a sign of his dedication to work leaving him no time for marriage etc. But I'd never write an adventure featuring Norris falling madly in love with a woman, and if I did, I strongly suspect Loren would slap a Variant label on it ;).

(2) Don't kick that pebble, in the big battel between X and Y it will cause bad guy A to stumble and...
"In the OTU, it's a historical fact that that pebble caused bad guy A to stumble. Since it's a historical fact, you're not going to have a chance to kick it before that happened."


Hans
 
Well I guess we are approaching "one man's bug is another man's feature" here.

I agree that the vagueness forces GM's to either repeat work or adopt other peoples work from the Internet (or the printed magazins/fanzines before that) for details. But the (bad) experience with extremly detailed universes (DSA, LUG-StarTrek) has me prefer the extra work over the pre-digested/generated background(1)

As for the fleet, that is IMHO the typical GDW approach. They deliver some details that interfer very little (Size of a Tigress BatRon), give some general outlines (IIRC they give "up to a thousand" ships/sector but I may mix that up) and leave many details for each GM. Sure, they may have simply forgotten it(2) but for me it's better than hard data since this prevents the "don't read SB x" problem and/or discussions with certain player types

Norris is an "most likely he is" but it is never spelled out. That and your comment on Loren's reaction to "Springtime for Norris" shows a good example of striking a balance between "fact" and "suggestion"(5)

Just like GDW never said "The Swordies are all Protestant Christians"(3) or goes into greater detail on religions(4) leaving space for a GM to tailor the universe without dropping canon

And the stone is only important if it is the one that Strephon stumbles over while running from Dulinor in 1116 and the group is playing in 1105 ;)


(1) Actually the Detail-level was/is the main reason I dropped DSA after a few sessions and use the Sherman rule on DSA games these days - "The only good DSA games I ever saw where those not played"

(2) With another publisher I would assume they HAVE forgotten it :)

(3) Using the background in G:Sword Worlds one could make a case for that

(4) The few that we see (Church of the Choosen Ones, The Illelish Faith etc) are again painted with broad strokes. Nice since that allows me to either use religion or drop it (i.e. I always ommit religion in a convention scenario after a G:Yearth one went very ugly

(5) I have had players where I used the "dedicated noble" variant of Norris to prevent backlash on the NPC due to real world opinions
 
Well I guess we are approaching "one man's bug is another man's feature" here.
I think we got there a while back and have been driving in circles round the property ever since ;).


I agree that the vagueness forces GM's to either repeat work or adopt other peoples work from the Internet (or the printed magazins/fanzines before that) for details. But the (bad) experience with extremly detailed universes (DSA, LUG-StarTrek) has me prefer the extra work over the pre-digested/generated background(1)
I don't see the point of that myself. If I have to do most of the work myself, why not do so and be done with it? And I don't understand the insistence that the publishers shouldn't add as many details as they can manage for those who do want them. How is that going to be a problem for you? The worst that can happen is that if you don't like a detail, you'll have to ignore it and do the work yourself. How is that worse than not having the detail in the first place?


As for the fleet, that is IMHO the typical GDW approach. They deliver some details that interfer very little (Size of a Tigress BatRon), give some general outlines (IIRC they give "up to a thousand" ships/sector but I may mix that up) and leave many details for each GM. Sure, they may have simply forgotten it(2) but for me it's better than hard data since this prevents the "don't read SB x" problem and/or discussions with certain player types.
If it's public knowledge, there's no reason why my players shouldn't read it (I'd want them to read it), and if it's secret information, any player of mine who relied on it would deserve all the grief he got :devil:.

Norris is an "most likely he is" but it is never spelled out. That and your comment on Loren's reaction to "Springtime for Norris" shows a good example of striking a balance between "fact" and "suggestion"(5)
The sexual proclivities of Traveller characters is not your average Traveller factoid.


Just like GDW never said "The Swordies are all Protestant Christians"(3) or goes into greater detail on religions(4) leaving space for a GM to tailor the universe without dropping canon.
Religion is another sensitive subject. Nevertheless, quite a bit of religious background information has sneaked into canon over the years. Personally I think Traveller is erring too far on the side of caution, but I could be wrong, and in any case I don't blame Marc Miller for being cautious.

(3) Using the background in G:Sword Worlds one could make a case for [the Swordies all being Protestant Christians].
What an intriguing claim. We certainly didn't intend to imply any such thing. I believe the only religion we make anything much out of is Aesirism. Please elucidate.


Hans
 
Well from the Swordies background they mostly come from planets settled by Scandinavians during the ISW era. Most of Scandinavia is IIRC Protestant so IF the settler that would later become the Swordies had a religion it would likely be that. The "let's go Viking" element of the Swordie culture was adopted after the settlement so "back home" chances are IMHO good that Thor and Odin where not the gods of choice (1)

The "not having vs. ignoring" is most likely a thing based on availabel players. I have seen more than one scenario(2) fail because there was a "rules lawyer/it is written in stone" type of player at the table. Sure the GM can say "It's MY variant" but often (7/10 in my experience) this results in a whining player or one that actively works against the GM(3) So from my experience "not having" is better since at least you don't have to argue against the "expert"

Similar with religion. With the right group I'd play "Christian Crusaders" in the 1950s/60s movies style with all the "evil muslim" and "heroic christian" clichees hammed up. O

(1) Thor actually would be mine. The guy is basically a Hells Angel that uses a goat-cart instead of a Harley. ;)

(2) Mostly on conventions, mostly as a player

(3) IMHO roleplaying is "Players + GM against the scenario" not "Players vs. GM", players should to a certain extend role with the scenario/assist the GM
 
Well from the Swordies background they mostly come from planets settled by Scandinavians during the ISW era.
Not quite. Roughly 80% of them are from Scandinavia on Earth itself. The other 20% are an eclectic mix from all over the Old Earth Union, including some Germans and some Vilani.

Most of Scandinavia is IIRC Protestant so IF the settler that would later become the Swordies had a religion it would likely be that.
Many Scandinavians of the 21st Century AD are Protestants. No one knows what the Scandinavians of the 5th Century Pre-Imperial were.

The "let's go Viking" element of the Swordie culture was adopted after the settlement so "back home" chances are IMHO good that Thor and Odin where not the gods of choice.
Very true. But that doesn't say anything about what it was. for all we know, it could be something descended from Islam or Catholicism (after the Chatholics of Ireland got kicked out and emigrated to Scandinavia ;)), sun-worship, or a hybrid of them all.

Or, of course, Protestant Christians.


(3) IMHO roleplaying is "Players + GM against the scenario" not "Players vs. GM", players should to a certain extend role with the scenario/assist the GM
I agree completely.


Hans
 
Piracy? Heck ya!

This whole it's undoable there's scads of patrol craft in the 100d, bah! There's worlds where the habitable zone of the star is within the star's 100d limit, there's habitable worlds as a moon of a Gas Giant, also within the 100d limit of the gas giant (we're on the third moon, just be sure n land in the radar shadow). Probably half the free traders are behind on their payments (skipjacks), smuggling, or out and out stolen (hijacked) craft! Over half the guys who come up and charge you for berthing fees and fuel aren't legit, or they're subcontracted out by a corporation, or bribeable. Forgery of the paperwork is quite possible as well! If you want protection, you have paid the 10kCr (or more!) for the one-use jump tape to the world, we patrol that spot regularly. If you're too cheap to buy a proper jump tape to get here, the quality of service you receive will be proportionate <s>. Probably half the XBoat traffic is lists of ships overdue on payments, tracking lost cargo, etc. whole corporations do nothing but transfer ships multiple times to gum it all up anyhow!
The belts of a system can get rough. real rough. Ships full of radioactives, gems, gold (!!!). Claimjumping, out and out (!) piracy. A lot of pirates don't even have jump ships, but want one pretty badly!
Half the piracy is a con anyhow: you jump in system, get yer traffic pattern (or whatever), in a "civilized" system likely get boarded by a boat of some kind to check your paperwork, look things over. You're met by a boat, a pirate boat! they are here to pick up one of the cargoes you have, cause there's now a rush order on the delivery. They're even offering half the 100Cr per ton rush fee. Paperwork's all in order even (maybe it is!). Or maybe when the hatch opened a platoon of vargrs charged in, whatever lol. Or a boat comes up to sell you fuel, only later do you realize you paid too much, or it wasn't refined etc.
IMTU by all means. It's canonical we have pirates in the ship encounter tables, we have a pirate career, the Aslan book has great stuff, privateers in *addition* to pirates, We have a Patrol Cruiser specifically designed to patrol the lanes, mention of running in convoys for safety for that matter (we have a mothly convoy. Payments you say? Yes we charge for the escort. oh *your* payment? well if you have a schedule to meet, you're on your own then!). Due to the nature of subsectors etc, there's lots of worlds, only a relative few are mid to hi pop starship capable with A/B ports. then there's the major XBoat trade routes. Any of those few are probably pretty safe, but even then there would be possible piracy through sheer amount of traffic/blending in. the rest of the worlds, probably a fair bit frontierish IMTU. Maybe semi heavily trafficked if they're on a main, worse if off it.
The whole SDB, well they are SDBs, they are not patrol craft. Their job is to remain hidden for response to a system attack. It's not their job to reveal their location, half of the pirate attacks would be like zhodani attempts to ID system defenses then anyhow. A highport is safe because it is armed! has internal security forces for order and response to boarding attempts.
Another version is even if a pirate ship say is boarded by the Imperial patrol craft, all they care about is do you have nukes? no? ok. got paperwork on the vessel, the crew, the cargo? great! Pay your 100Cr berthing fee when you dock, your berth orbit is X. Have a nice day!
Most of the canonical ships stay in orbit anyhow, transfer passengers and cargo through grav vehicles, launches, boats, or shuttles. If there's a highport, I'm pretty sure it'd be used. In beltstrike great example, there's a company charges for "port protection". If you don't pay, well, they only really make sure if any vandalism occurs, it's not on the ships they're paid to protect (maybe they even, well...). You buy a cargo, it's delivered. or did you have to hire a transport company to load it for you, or get it to your ship from the warehouse? (Stevedores! Mafia!! Think um, Hoffa) Maybe someone intercepted the cargo. etc etc etc lots (and LOTS) of possibilities. It would take a LOT of piracy to have a measurable effect on interstellar trade anyhow, heck misjumps alone allow for a lot of room for piracy.
My .02Cr all in good fun, and in the full spirit of IMTU people don't have to have it. Sure a lotta resources, skills, ships, careers, fluff you name it for it though!
 
"System jump point v habitable orbit" thread in Imperial Interstellar Scout Service board here I posted the stars and Mkm needed to get from the habitable zone orbit to the star's 100d jump limit. These are systems for which the 100d limit of the star exceeds the habitable zone orbit, so jumping in (or out!) you have a multi million kilometer trip to get to the world. defending the 100d limit of the world only would not work in these cases.
 
Made a table even having the travel times, plus standard planets, GGs etc. In the Files and Folders section Charts and forms.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/attachment.php?attachmentid=374&d=1239319626

Since even the fastest ship and the smallest planet requires over 30 minutes to reach the 100 diameter distance, times in tenths of a second precision seems like overkill. The data seems quite usefull, but I would suggest rounding off to the nearest minute (or even the nearest 10 minutes).

You should include a note that these times are for reaching the desitnation at zero velocity (accelerate to midpoint, decelerate to destination).
 
Having watched "The pirat and the slave girl" (La Scimitarra del Saraceno, 1959) with Lex Barker as the evil pirat Drakut I simply MUST have successful pirats IMTU. The hiring scene where Barker walks into a tavern full of pirats and calls out for new recruits is a "must steal".

The potential recruits line up and get recruited based on their prior performance. This is given in the form of "Participated in the sacking of Panama" or "Was part of the Landing near Madeira" by the recruit.
 
Governments would utilize pirates is plausible deniabity. If a ship turns up missing, outposts are raided, personages seized for 'ransom', the powers who be claim 'despicable pirates', deplore the act & ignore it or make a 'show' of hunting the felons. Or they can make a dramatic rescue(after getting what data or what they needed), shove empty vacc suits into space & boast of Imperial justice on the official newsfeed. IMTU, the Imperium, the Zhodani, the Sword Worlds, even the Darrians engage in this activity in the Spinward Marches.

Not to mention what use corporations would utilize pirates. Making ships under investigation disappear, putting the smack on rivals, kidnapping-er recruiting talent, & making that reprisal raid on that Vargyr corsair who is relaxing over the border after robbing the CEO's yacht.

IMTU, in my Beyond campaign, the Imperium uses pirates to maintain the long arm of the Imperium where it is too expensive to send a task force. Especially against Imperial client states who gotten too big for their britches or have made Strephon's name stink all over the region. Of course not all of the pirates have any idea they are being used, some who do don't care or realize they & the Imperium have similar interests. And a few of the pirates are Imperial moles, naval, scout, or intelligence ops. The leader of the anti-Imperial faction of the Dark Goddesses pirate group, Rani St. James is one of the latter, a naval officier who went very deep cover before the Fifth Frontier War.

My wife's pirate character, Bette Noire, was carefully crafted by the Imperium intelligence aparatus to be the person she has become.
 
I'm not really going to get judgmental about right-or-wrong of the situation IRL, but I've recently been thinking of piracy and the Somali and the Gulf of Aden situation we're seeing in the news circa 2009. I've recently been thinking about of the kind of "hot potato" failed state situation and if a similar situation might arise in the Third Imperium leading to rampant piracy.

Here's my thoughts on the matter:

* It would require a reasonably high tech level TL12+. This way, starships and the skills to run them are pretty common.

* Class A or B starport. A larger number of starships, and a larger body of people who know how to build and repair them.

* Sitting in the middle and probably the chokepoint of a Main without any J-1 routes to skirt it. Plenty of ships to strike.

* Some reason for a reluctance of the Imperium to invade and occupy the world. Sending in the Marines would be the Imperium's first reaction to something like this.

* Some reason for the reluctance for the Imperium to use megaforce and simply "nuke" the world. This one as a bone for all the people on this thread who believe the Imperium simply nukes people at the drop of a hat because they're "not a democracy and don't care what their subjects think."

My thought is that it would be a High Population world. Perhaps an old one that had been at TL12 or so for quite a long time. It seems there's quite a few of these in the Imperium. It doesn't seem too unlikely to find one with the traits we need.

Something occurs over the course of several generations that alienate the local people towards offworlders - perhaps the local government is corrupt and beholden to offworld interests, be they megacorporate/Imperial (really they're the same). Alternatively the world is involved in a protacted series of trade-wars with other worlds in the Main - Imperial arbitration would tend to come down in favor of the other worlds leading to a feeling (fairly or unfairly) that the Imperial Court is "out to get them." Either way, it would lead to widespread joblessness and poverty, as well as a resentment/suspicision of outsiders.

The Imperial government, or perhaps a consortium of governments of nearby systems would attempt to "rein" the world in by toppling the government. Initially, this would set up a sympathetic government propped up by an outside force that would be seen as an occupying government. However, the coup fails to win many if not most of the powerful power blocs - families/clans/global corporations/formerly independent nations on the world. Because the world is sitting in the middle of a Main and has a reasonable TL of its own - the world's factions begin arming, or perhaps they're already arming - perhaps the world already suffered from extensive local lawlessness. So the world is essentially an armed camp. These groups essentially make the "official" government of the world insolvent. The huge concentration of weapons present on the planet of sufficiently high tech to harm Imperial Marines leads to several bloody clashes with Imperial "invaders." Bombing the world is unpalatable as it's a high pop world sitting in the middle of a Main with plenty of eyes to be turned off by Imperial atrocities, in addition, perhaps some of the factions are sympathetic or loyal to the Imperium to varying degrees.

What does everyone think?
 
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