Designless Traveller?

[Spinward Scout]

Has anyone ever thought about making a version of Traveller without all of the design sequences? No Starship or Vehicle design, no World design, no Robot design, no Animal design? Streamlined Traveller, so to speak? Character generation only and then a good sized amount of already created equipment, vehicles, ships, animals, robots, and worlds to explore...

Might get people more interested in Traveller if all that design stuff is added later as an Advanced Option.

 

[Colin]

The Traveller Guidebook will just one such book. 2320AD does not include design sequences, either.

 

[Pickles]

Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
Has anyone ever thought about making a version of Traveller without all of the design sequences?

Heresy! Call the grognardy gearheadist canonmonger inquisition!

Might get people more interested in Traveller if all that design stuff is added later as an Advanced Option.

Seriously, now that is a seriously good idea. Perhaps MWM should be informed.

Of course, all the design sequences should be worked out beforehand so that the 'off-the-shelf' things in the basic book match up with what referees later create themselves. <cough>tradersandgunboats</cough>

 

[parmasson]

Is The Traveller Guidebook going to be a d20 or T5 product? I underdstand if it will be d20 but I hope for T5.
[edit] Not that my opinion is worth much but this is a fantastic idea. I like to spend the balance of my time writing plot. My players like finding out how the stuff works. With off the shelf equipment we can just go.

 

[Pickles]

LBB1 through 4 were pretty much off-the-shelf, anyway. Then came Striker and High Guard and Scouts, and suddenly I had to re-design everything. No, seriously, I had to, I'm persnickety that way.

None of the vehicles in LBB3 were replicable with Striker, though, and we all know what the LBB2 vs. High Guard conflict unleashed ...

I'm under the impression that the Traveler Guidebook will be d20. And judging from the T5 playtest, design sequences will be a BIG part of the game. I'm in two minds about that - I like designing stuff, but most of my past players didn't. IMO (and that's all it is) design rules are better as an add-on, as per GURPS.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

One of the great things about Traveller is that it doesn't limit you. Don't like the planets/ships/etc? No problem, here are the tools to build your own. By not including them (and don't forget, they've been a fundamental part of *every* version) you've instantly made the game far less usefull for many people. Nobody is forcing anyone to use them, but they should be there for people who need them.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Nobody is forcing anyone to use them,

True, but not thowing them in a newbies face might be better for the Traveller line in the long run. Those of us who have been around Traveller for years, it probably wouldn't have much of an effect on us (i.e. I don't need to read that chapter right now...) but new folks might be thrown off by all the technical stuff. Gimme a starship, a world to fly it to, and someone to shoot at is what people generally look for.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the design sequences. I've made a couple of starships myself. But I think that should be relegated to Referee/Advanced options AFTER the first couple of games have gone by. If the players amass enough to build their own starship, then by all means, they should do so. I just think there should be a separation there. Like the MegaTraveller Player's Book and Referee's book. All of the design stuff was in the Ref's book. So the player's didn't get to see 'things that they weren't meant to see' yet. I think what I am proposing is like the idea of Starter Traveller - a basic set to get you going. I don't think it would stop it from being Traveller at all. I wish they would have done this with T20 - then I also wish they had made it so a Core Rulebook wasn't required (but that takes more money).

Anyways, just pondering,

Dameon

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
Has anyone ever thought about making a version of Traveller without all of the design sequences? No Starship or Vehicle design, no World design, no Robot design, no Animal design? Streamlined Traveller, so to speak? Character generation only and then a good sized amount of already created equipment, vehicles, ships, animals, robots, and worlds to explore...

Might get people more interested in Traveller if all that design stuff is added later as an Advanced Option.

You mean a bit like buying just the MT Player's Manual and Imperial Encyclopedia

 

[Fritz_Brown]

KG - The Traveller Guidebook is a T20 thing.
And, the T5 stuff (concerning design) is an attempt to make it as painless as possible up front. Then maybe something for the hardcore gearhead.

Originally posted by Bromgrev:
Heresy! Call the grognardy gearheadist canonmonger inquisition!

Bromgrev - can I be in the inquisition for that? It sounds like fun, especially the grognardy part!

 

[Spinward Scout]

You mean a bit like buying just the MT Player's Manual and Imperial Encyclopedia

Yeah, I guess that's what I mean. That's what I wish was done with T20 and from the sounds of it, the nearly departed Traveller Guidebook might be just what I'm asking for. I wonder if we'll see it.

Dameon

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

I'd have to argue the other side here. It was the design rules that actually enticed me to buy the game.

 

[Merxiless]

I'm all for going out and buying Starter Traveller.

Oh wait, I've got two copies of it, circa 1980's.

And thus, 20 years of gaming ensued...

 

[Pickles]

I know we're all pretty much used to the idea of design sequences now. I couldn't face the idea of a campaign that doesn't involve a few new spaceships and vehicles and a fully-detailed world or ten. And then there are all the new gadgets (most of which will be made up on the fly, with no recourse to any rules).

But there was a time when many of us ancients had LBBs 1-3. True, there were design sequences in the form of character generation (mostly random), spaceships (lego) and worlds (completely random). But even those were a surprise to many of us, and we would certainly have bought the game if they had been replaced by a catalogue.

This is one of those arguments which could go round and round ad infinitum. We all have preferences, but I don't think anyone has any real data to back them up. so, my personal preference would be for a basic system with a catalogue of enough hardware to begin play, and a single, scaleable, integrated design sequence for everything from handguns to arcologies.

I'd buy both, of course.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I've no objection to the design rules being in a Ref's book (like MT), or even having the detailed version in a separate product (like TNE & T4), but the main rules must have *something*.

 

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
Has anyone ever thought about making a version of Traveller without all of the design sequences? No Starship or Vehicle design, no World design, no Robot design, no Animal design? Streamlined Traveller, so to speak? Character generation only and then a good sized amount of already created equipment, vehicles, ships, animals, robots, and worlds to explore...

Might get people more interested in Traveller if all that design stuff is added later as an Advanced Option.

What, do you mean LARP??

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Bromgrev:
[...] judging from the T5 playtest, design sequences will be a BIG part of the game. I'm in two minds about that - I like designing stuff, but most of my past players didn't. IMO (and that's all it is) design rules are better as an add-on, as per GURPS.

My group is the same way. We all have a limited tolerance for design.

Marc is putting a lot of effort -- hopefully fruitful -- into defining the core mechanics, design systems, what-have-you, up front. This is opposite to Classic Traveller, where most of the detailed design systems and advanced rules were bolted on to a simple but compelling core.

Theoretically, doing the messy work up-front provides a consistent foundation for the actual game (I don't think we've seen any of the actual game, yet). Lots of folks like me get glassy-eyed looking at scads of Excel files and tables. And it's hard to remember that this is not the game, but rather the foundation that the game will be built on.

 

[Colin]

Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:
Is The Traveller Guidebook going to be a d20 or T5 product? I underdstand if it will be d20 but I hope for T5.
[edit] Not that my opinion is worth much but this is a fantastic idea. I like to spend the balance of my time writing plot. My players like finding out how the stuff works. With off the shelf equipment we can just go.

D20. From what I understand it will be an OGL "Player's Handbook" sort of deal. Contains everything you actually need to play.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Well, Colin, everything a player needs to play his character. It has equipment in it, but has no crunchy design bits, at all. (There is a lot about weapons in there.... )

 

[parmasson]

Lots of folks like me get glassy-eyed looking at scads of Excel files and tables. And it's hard to remember that this is not the game

PGMP-13
TL-13, Rnage: 1000m Damage: Scads
Two points For using it in a sentence.

 

[parmasson]

Seriously,

D20. From what I understand it will be an OGL "Player's Handbook" sort of deal.

Hmmm….excellent idea but, I have to hold out for T5. My players scoffed openly when I mentioned the idea of d20. Don’t get me wrong, for all I poke fun at it on occasion from what I have seen it is (T20 lite) it is a good system. It is just a hard sell to some of the old timers (sometimes).

Perhaps it is a Vilani trait.