• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Deep, deep geothermal power

Carlobrand

SOC-14 1K
Marquis
Elsewhere, we've discussed deep meson sites and the problem with powering them - the meson site can be utterly hidden, but fusion power plants stand out in a neutrino scan like flashlights on a dark night: it's an obvious point of vulnerability, since killing the power shuts down the meson battery. So the question is: what other ways can we power the thing?

The deepest hole ever drilled in the modern era - over 12 kilometers - is the Kola borehole in Russia. I'm thinking that, given the materials tech to produce superdense armor, the tech to produce fusion plants generating hundreds or thousands of megawatts, and the tech to produce 250 megawatt lasers and 500 megawatt fusion guns, our future-tech fictional cousins should be able to beat that by quite a lot. Oceanic crust runs roughly 5 to 10 kilometers (which raises the interesting point that we could have reached the mantle if we'd been able to do this underwater). Continental crust is a lot thicker at 30-50 klicks, but there are convenient spots such as the island of Hawaii and the Yellowstone caldera where the magma rises conveniently close to the surface.

This raises the interesting idea of siting deep meson batteries in the ocean depths, below a few kilometers of ocean, with power drawn directly from the heat of the mantle and all that ocean above to conceal the heat signature and shield the site from missile attack (since attacks at that depth would require specially designed missiles rather than your run-of-the-mill re-entry-capable space missiles, complicating the enemy's supply situation).

Question is: how much energy is there in the stuff, and can we tap it for a multi-hundred-thousand megawatt/second power source without having to redrill every few weeks when the stuff gets cold? Or is it only good for the kind of power level that can keep the crew of an SDB warm and snuggly while they wait for orders?
 
I'd have the meson battery have a large accumulator /battery system that allows you to trickle charge it from the geothermal magma to ocean floor heat gradient. Not needing continous multi M/W power systems you have instead a energy storage system that can store perhaps 1000 full power shots, and replenish at 1 shot a day.

Establish a hot side thermocouple (TC) in the magma and a cold side in the ocean and draw power from the current flow in the thermocouple you make a few thousand of these TC systems in a field around your meson site, perhaps even shifting it to the side so the detection of the electric fields generated by the currents does not lead to targeting the gun. Eventually the crust in that area will get thickened by a few meters from the increased heat flow out of the magma, hide your deep meson sites along the sea floor fissures that are making new land and hide your heat signature with all the hot smokers already in the area.

(You're thinking drill a hole and inject water and use the steam to turn a generator, well at thoes pressures you do not generally get steam, just 700 degree C water)
 
...
(You're thinking drill a hole and inject water and use the steam to turn a generator, well at thoes pressures you do not generally get steam, just 700 degree C water)

Actually, I hadn't given much thought to how a far future society would convert heat to electricity. I figure my very limited knowledge of TL 7-8 engineering would be little to no help in figuring out the specifics of how a TL 14-15 society might tackle the problem. All I know is, there's this big juicy energy source, and I'm wondering how much I can squeeze out of it. For all I know, they've figured a way to do the solar panel thing with infrared sources.
 
Continental crust is a lot thicker at 30-50 klicks, but there are convenient spots such as the island of Hawaii and the Yellowstone caldera where the magma rises conveniently close to the surface.

I just want to put in my vote right here for NOT tampering in any way with the hot stuff under Yellowstone - picturing a similar effect to poking a pinhole in an inflated balloon... :eek: (OK, not like the whole planet would go POP, but I'd rather not have that volcano triggered!) I'm sure residents of Hawaii are likely to have the same feelings, so maybe this experiment should be conducted someplace far from human habitation - maybe Mars? :confused:
 
Geothermal

IMTU geothermal meson guns we're the Imperium standard if the planet met the basis requirements. TL14+ worlds would be able to go deeper than the 1-2 miles we achieve today. Their drilling process and materials are much more formidable.

There are three types of geothermal power plants: dry steam, flash, and binary. Geothermal power plants in the future will be binary plants which has a 2nd fluid other than water with a lower boiling point. One problem is toxic gas and disposal of gas for the DMG. Now back to America, We believe that the western US could be commercially producing 73,000MW through investment and growth of the energy industry (in TL9 terms). The point with the Meson Guns is to accelerate particles...that is a lot of energy to focus on planetary defense.
 
Elsewhere, we've discussed deep meson sites and the problem with powering them - the meson site can be utterly hidden, but fusion power plants stand out in a neutrino scan like flashlights on a dark night: it's an obvious point of vulnerability,


Just use fusion plants that are buried 2000 kilometers away. Run buried superconductor power lines to the deep meson site.
 
Just use fusion plants that are buried 2000 kilometers away. Run buried superconductor power lines to the deep meson site.

How does that protect the fusion plants? You can delay the inevitable at some expense - duplicate plants and such - but at some point the cost of that effort is such that you'd be better off spending it on a second meson site to throw more firepower into orbit. The enemy's goal is still to put enough firepower in orbit that they can overwhelm your defenses with acceptable losses, as it always has been in cases of ships verses shore batteries. In this case, that means knocking out power for the mesons, since the power's what they can find.
 
How does that protect the fusion plants? You can delay the inevitable at some expense - duplicate plants and such - but at some point the cost of that effort is such that you'd be better off spending it on a second meson site to throw more firepower into orbit. The enemy's goal is still to put enough firepower in orbit that they can overwhelm your defenses with acceptable losses, as it always has been in cases of ships verses shore batteries. In this case, that means knocking out power for the mesons, since the power's what they can find.


I was thinking meson screens but you're right.It wouldn't last long enough. Now, what would be good is dummy power sites that emit neutrinos. Let them spend precious time going after decoy sites.
 
If they are buried and armored, they still got to be hit and destroyed - before the meson guns take you out...<shrug> toss in multiple power plants and decoys. A geothermal installation would probably be pretty size able - compared to a fusion plant - and, while not emitting a neutrino signal, the infrastructure could be quite susceptible to more conventional detection methods from space borne systems...
 
I was thinking meson screens but you're right.It wouldn't last long enough. Now, what would be good is dummy power sites that emit neutrinos. Let them spend precious time going after decoy sites.

Have those decoys be civil power stations, as well...

A TL13-15 society should be a HUGE neutrino source in general. Without knowing the local sources, pinpointing the deep ones could be a case of "lost in the noise" from the civil power systems.
 
Have those decoys be civil power stations, as well...

A TL13-15 society should be a HUGE neutrino source in general. Without knowing the local sources, pinpointing the deep ones could be a case of "lost in the noise" from the civil power systems.


Right. Also similar to the fake airfield lights the Brits made during the battle of Britain to confuse German night bombers that were trying to knock out the fighter airfields.
 
Have those decoys be civil power stations, as well...

A TL13-15 society should be a HUGE neutrino source in general. Without knowing the local sources, pinpointing the deep ones could be a case of "lost in the noise" from the civil power systems.

Sort of one flashlight among a thousand others, huh? Interesting but scary thought.

The power consumption of one meson spinal is huge, anything from 125,000 to 300,000 megawatts. For some reason, the thought of a world having many, many power plants capable of such output - of a few billion people using power on that scale - frightens the willies out of me. Assuming a thousand such plants, that's something on the order of a hundred kilowatts per person per second. Only a hundred such plants parks it in around ten kilowatts per person per second. Am I doing that math right? Thousands of joules per person per second? It conjures images of the Puppeteer homeworld coasting through interstellar space, warmed only by its own waste heat. What in Hades are all those people doing with all that power?
 
What in Hades are all those people doing with all that power?
I have one suggestion, we know that in the real world, those arc-furnaces that refine aluminum are serious power hogs ... imagine the power requirements to partially collapse atoms to make superdense.
 
Energy abundance!

I don't see a particular reason to be concerned about the amount of energy.
These are TL11+ planets building defense grids much as we once did the Nike/Hercules system or evaluated the "Star Wars" system. I'm sure the same questions are asked "your firing through us?" Explain that to the masses.
Then again this culture puts fusion cells or power plants in their battlefield tanks and APCs. It probably has those cells throughout their transportation system.

If we reference FFS we see that this Meson technology can be varying in size with no limit to the planetary scale (its not in the hull of a ship) accept that of the sphere containing it. The drilling capability probably can do the planetary mantle so you have a ready source of energy feeding to a weapon system under ground or on an ocean bed. I think underground is safer. Gases can be discharged into the ocean or through a scrubbing system.

All you need are elevators to get their and back.

The Earth naturally gives off 44.2 TW of energy from heat flow, so a similar planet could power many meson guns or cities from the immense planetary reserve.
 
Back
Top