Deckplans, nonsense

[FlightCommanderSolitude]

So I'm thinking of doing a little modelling project and was taking a closer look at the old Type S deckplans in Supp 7: Traders and Gunboats. I've always eyed them with some suspicion, as it seemed like the upper and lower decks would be somewhat cramped owing to the wedge shape of the vessel.

The Scout/Courier is listed as being 7.5m tall at its highest point; if we make the main deck 3m high (the value given in the book), and make the other decks each just 2m high, we've used up 7m!

I did a Sketchup model of the hull, and a model of the decks, and then tried to fit the decks into the hull. It's ridiculous! It's like trying to put a stapler in an ice cream cone: it just ain't going in there. The upper gallery is more like a very abbreviated attic, and the forward cargo bay is essentially outside the ship!

I know people have complained about this before, but I'd never sat down and worked it all out to see how broken the deckplan is. The question now is, can anything in the design be changed or shuffled around so that the "spirit" of the deckplan is workable?

It seems like you could move the forward cargo bay to the rear, replace the upper gallery with another cargo bay like the first one, and perhaps expand the common area out to the sides a bit. Perhaps squashing the deck heights (to just over 2m everywhere but the rear areas, say) and allowing some of the interior spaces to deform the hull shape so it wasn't a pure wedge anymore, might also help things a bit.

Anyone have any comments or ideas?

 

[Nick Nova]

Ah yes, the venerable old Type S Scout. God, I Love the look of this ship. That classic wedge design that looks like it's racing to infinity. It is one of the things that first attracted me to Traveller back in '78 and started my whole addiction thing.

Then came Supplement 7 with that Gawd-awful deckplan. The only thing I find more aggravating than its impossible design is the fact that it has persisted for sooo long.

So how do I cope with it? Well, IMTU the upper and lower decks don't exist. They're gone, poof. Nothing to see here folks, move along. They really didn't add anything of value to the design anyway.

The 3 tons of cargo space I move into the aft lounge area, portside of the engineering section. How does a ship this size get 17.5 tons of lounge/free space anyhow?

Then there is engineering. Couple of nice maneuver drives ya got there mister, but where'd ya say the power plant and jumpdrive were? They'll be included in the next model you say? Huh.

So I put the power plant under the floor in engineering, and the jump drive goes in the ceiling. No extra decks, they are embedded in the hull. Access only through access panels in the floor and ceiling. Outside of an overhaul you've got no business going there anyhow. But at least they are there and they fit.

Then there is just the matter of where to put the airlock. I mean really. Who would design a starship without an airlock? Who would buy one?

Oh... yeah... the government. No wonder the Scouts are giving these things away for free! Sheesh.

 

[flykiller]

It's like trying to put a stapler in an ice cream cone

(laugh)

can anything in the design be changed or shuffled around so that the "spirit" of the deckplan is workable?

'bout a year and a half ago someone did a full-on 3D graphic of a scout that kinda-sorta-looked like the type S, only markedly better. big turbo-fans, textured-white hull, sorta like the space shuttle morphed into a wedge. I might have saved the link, I'll try to dig it up today unless someone else knows where it is.

 

[vutpakdi]

I think that the upper gallery is supposed to be an attic in the Type S. Very short ceiling height, maybe a meter or so.

Doesn't make the rest of the deckplans work, but that's what I seem to recall.

Ron

 

[Scarecrow]

That wouldn't be Ted Lindsey's rather lovely Scout model would it?

Crow

 

[flykiller]

That wouldn't be Ted Lindsey's rather lovely Scout model would it?

no, it was a different one.

lindsey's sure looks great though. never saw this one before. I like the face-paint, without it the ship would be a lump but with it there'e a marked lightening of the shape.

 

[GypsyComet]

Didn't we just have this conversation?

Traders & Gunboats has conflicting information about total height of this hull. The rear view of the Type J clearly shows a hull that is a full three deck high at the aft end. Even run down to a razor edge at the nose, this allows the vertical hatches just behind the Bridge to provide crawling access to the two galleries. Since the lower gallery has a sloping floor anyway, it really isn't much good for walking around in, and could instead house the access to the ship's infamous air filters or function as the trash space. I could also see it being converted to a boarding ramp.

The upper galleries are very attic-like. The rear gallery is functional for storage in that mode, while the forward gallery, labeled as the hardware bay for the Type S active service sensors, is little more than a tight crawlspace.

The main deck is subject to some floor clipping, but not too terrible.

Assuming even a meter of depth along the leading edge of the hull moves the useful hull heights out noticeably, though it can have the effect of making the hull look even more like a Star Destroyer...

 

[Valarian]

Hunter's got a set of deckplans for the scout right here on the QLI website, which look as if they're based on the same Bryan Gibson illustrations as Ted Lindseys model

 

[far-trader]

Hey Crow, when flykiller said "big turbo fans" my first thought was your own Florian Scout

Though I wouldn't describe the rest of it as a wedgie/shuttle shape... well maybe a little. But, the time frame fits your own wedgie better maybe.

You have a link for either handy yet? My old ones are all 403, 404, and such.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by GypsyComet:
Didn't we just have this conversation?

FlightCommanderSolitude admitted that in his original post:

Originally posted by FlightCommanderSolitude:
I know people have complained about this before, but I'd never sat down and worked it all out to see how broken the deckplan is.

The point is that no matter how many times you hear about it, when you actually try to work out the plans from Traders and Gunboats, the errors strike against some primal instinct. You have to talk about it. There is simply no other choice. And almost everyone who has felt that drive understands and is willing to discuss it again. When discussing a 30 year old game, how many thoughts are there that have never been expressed before?

My personal preference for “fixing” the old Type S would be to have a design contest. Start with an accurate model of the ship’s hull, including only the outline of the floor or floors and the ceiling heights (there are only two or three floor levels possible). Then let each contestant design his own floor plan within this allowable space. Post the results and use the plan that you like the best. Maybe this could be a future deckplan contest …

 

[flykiller]

a search of coti using "scout deckplan" and "florian scout" produces quite a few threads, one of which contains the ship I remember - but most of the links are broken, including that one. this one is still good though.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000697#000001

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Nick Nova:
How does a ship this size get 17.5 tons of lounge/free space anyhow?

By relocating it from the required 20 dTons of Bridge, of course.

Then there is engineering. Couple of nice maneuver drives ya got there mister, but where'd ya say the power plant and jumpdrive were? They'll be included in the next model you say? Huh.

I was always amused

that Book 2 makes such a big deal about the bulkhead that separates “Engineering” from “the rest of the ship”. All Drives and PP must fit in the provided engineering space and only Drives and PP may be placed in Engineering. Try to identify the bulkhead that separates Engineering from the rest of the ship on any of the published plans.

 

[Scarecrow]

Flykiller, The Florian scout is my old Naboo Cruiser style Scout - the one you're thinking of though is Bryan's deckplans for the Traveller D20 Scout - or at least, that's where the link leads.

Just on the off chance, it's not my Florian you're talking about is it?...

Crow

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Originally posted by Scarecrow:
That wouldn't be Ted Lindsey's rather lovely Scout model would it?

Actually, it sounds like yours!

http://www.traveller3d.com/crow/Suleiman%20'Wedgie'%20Scout-Courier.htm

(hope you don't mind me sticking it on my site while yours is offline).

I increased the height of my Scout to 10m, BTW.

 

[flykiller]

Just on the off chance, it's not my Florian you're talking about is it?...

it is. beauty.

at least I remembered the big turbo-fans correctly.

anyway, wasn't there some mention of accurate internal deckplans for this?

 

[Scarecrow]

There are. I've modelled the interior so it fits. The internal, habitable spaces fit inside the hull - However there's only half the fuel that it should have =( (unless you use High Guard rules).
There are a lot of things I don't like about these plans now though - in particular the fuel layout and the airlock. =(



One day these will be rendered properly. One day...

The plans for my other wedgie that Andrew linked to above fit physically but they are an average between the GURPS and T20 volumes so they aren't accurate to any particular rule system. I don't have them drawn up properly yet though. One day...

Crow

PS - Andrew - No problem, cheers!

 

[FlightCommanderSolitude]

Thanks for the responses. I recently had the pleasure of touring a decommissioned lightship in Oakland, and was struck by the interior layout, not having been aboard too many naval vessels before. (Cool image gallery here.)

It's roughly the same scale as the Type S, and it's crammed full of stuff. (It's got two engines!) It's really cool how "vertical" the floorplan is - there are some spots where you can look down two decks. The decks are also curved slightly. The whole thing made me think differently about what the interior of a Scout/Courier might be like. The only issue would be that a more realistic deckplan might very well be a deckplan that was very difficult to use for games a la Snapshot, which is perhaps one reason why GDW gimped the deckplans for the ships.

 

[GypsyComet]

The Snapshot Type S was a different critter, much closer to the current T20 Scout than the "Traders & Gunboats" Sulieman.

The Sulie would be pretty murderous in a proper Snapshot fight, as there are not enough corners, bulkheads, and inconvenient doors to prolong a firefight.

 

[GypsyComet]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Try to identify the bulkhead that separates Engineering from the rest of the ship on any of the published plans.

It's pretty obvious in the Empress Marava, as screwed up as those plans are otherwise. The Sulie has one, but it encloses the wrong volume (10 tons instead of 15). This is pretty easily fixable by assuming the engineering space includes a small part of the area below the main deck, since most of that volume is off-camera.

Someone suggested a new deckplan contest for the Type S...

 

[GypsyComet]

Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Nick Nova:
How does a ship this size get 17.5 tons of lounge/free space anyhow?

By relocating it from the required 20 dTons of Bridge, of course.

</font>[/QUOTE]Yup. Consider that the volume in the hull forward of the aft Bridge bulkhead is only about 7 tons, the rest of that 20 tons has to be *somewhere*. The landing gear would be part of that, as would at least the forward compartment of the upper gallery (former sensor suite volume). Still not much volume added, so a good chunk of the "common spaces" in the plans are "command, control, and access" volume (ie. "Bridge"). The spare volume from the staterooms accounts for the hallway between them and a little of the lounge. The remaining gallery spaces can be considered "Cargo" if you like, aside from the turret control in the upper gallery.

The upshot is that the lounge area is cutting into the fuel spaces a little, but since the Type S is *swimming* in fuel due to the oddity of Book 2 PP fuel calcs, this is less of a problem than it appears.