d20 & hit points

[simontmn]

I recently started a Traveller game using Traveller: The New Era rules, which are *very* similar to d20 anyway, but I converted the task-resolution system from old-fashioned "Roll under stat+skill to succeed" to the d20 DC system where you roll d20, add stat+skill ("asset") and have to beat a certain Difficulty Class - DC 21 in this works out the same as DC 15 in the d20 rules. I'm thinking of converting fully to Traveller d20 when it comes out, but I don't think a lot of D&D norms, such as hit points that increase by level, fit into Traveller very well. In TNE rules, the amount of damage you can take before being incapacitated is determined largely by Initiative (which equates roughly to Level in D&D) but the amount of damage you can take before being killed is determined by STR & CON and is fixed, so even spec-ops elite types can be killed by a single rifle bullet. I like this and I wouldn't want to lose it.
I was wondering about Call of Cthulu d20 as well - will hit points (or Star Wars Vitality Points) increase with level? If so, surely this would turn it into an action game, not a horror game? I like the idea of high-level D&D PCs stomping Cthulu, but it seems wrong for an actual CoC game.

 

[aramis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by simontmn:
I recently started a Traveller game using Traveller: The New Era rules, which are *very* similar to d20 anyway, but I converted the task-resolution system from old-fashioned "Roll under stat+skill to succeed" to the d20 DC system where you roll d20, add stat+skill ("asset") and have to beat a certain Difficulty Class - DC 21 in this works out the same as DC 15 in the d20 rules. I'm thinking of converting fully to Traveller d20 when it comes out, but I don't think a lot of D&D norms, such as hit points that increase by level, fit into Traveller very well. In TNE rules, the amount of damage you can take before being incapacitated is determined largely by Initiative (which equates roughly to Level in D&D) but the amount of damage you can take before being killed is determined by STR & CON and is fixed, so even spec-ops elite types can be killed by a single rifle bullet. I like this and I wouldn't want to lose it.
I was wondering about Call of Cthulu d20 as well - will hit points (or Star Wars Vitality Points) increase with level? If so, surely this would turn it into an action game, not a horror game? I like the idea of high-level D&D PCs stomping Cthulu, but it seems wrong for an actual CoC game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Star Wars: vitality climbs with level, but wound points are fixed to an attribute. Crits bypass vitality. Some force powers burn vitality.

T20: similar approach for the two categories (different names), but most weapon hits do both, so lethality is maintained. Armor reduces the wound component some (much?) of the time. a crit with a rifle can still kill a human outright. (Maybe even a virush, too!)

CoC: No clue. Not a fan of the setting, bought 1 edition solely for use with other chaosium games; have no interest in the D20 ed.

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-aramis
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Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

 

[DrSkull]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by simontmn:
, but I don't think a lot of D&D norms, such as hit points that increase by level, fit into Traveller very well. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I've ran a handful of playtest sessions, and have started ar egualr campaign with T20 now, and I'll say that while the d20 aspects make everything familiar to D&D players, I've found that it "feels" more like Traveller than D&D. It's more important to have the right equipment and smarts than it is to be high level.

In fact surviving combat is almost 100% determined by the Armor you're wearing rather than anything else. An unarmored man is in really serious trouble, even against Brawlers with lead pipes. Guys in cloth are more likely to end up unconscious and injured than killed outright.


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Dave "Dr. Skull" Nelson

 

[simontmn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrSkull:

I've ran a handful of playtest sessions, and have started ar egualr campaign with T20 now, and I'll say that while the d20 aspects make everything familiar to D&D players, I've found that it "feels" more like Traveller than D&D. It's more important to have the right equipment and smarts than it is to be high level.

In fact surviving combat is almost 100% determined by the Armor you're wearing rather than anything else. An unarmored man is in really serious trouble, even against Brawlers with lead pipes. Guys in cloth are more likely to end up unconscious and injured than killed outright.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's certainly how it seems in the TNE rules - I ran a huge battle last night (airport battle in the 'Presumed Destroyed' scenario, "Smash & Grab" scenario book); characters with combat armour tend to get bruised & battered, those without get killed or maimed. Except when the plasma cannons came into play...

 

[aramis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrSkull:

I've ran a handful of playtest sessions, and have started ar egualr campaign with T20 now, and I'll say that while the d20 aspects make everything familiar to D&D players, I've found that it "feels" more like Traveller than D&D. It's more important to have the right equipment and smarts than it is to be high level.

In fact surviving combat is almost 100% determined by the Armor you're wearing rather than anything else. An unarmored man is in really serious trouble, even against Brawlers with lead pipes. Guys in cloth are more likely to end up unconscious and injured than killed outright.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having run a playtest campaign, with mid-high T20 characters (low was 6th for PC, 1st for continuing NPC; High PC was 8th, and JUST hit ninth), the key thing isn't even armor.

The key was smart engagement tactics. Secondary was armor. Tertiary was skill with weapons (read BAB).

However, even light armor has a drastic reduction in the ammount of Lifelood lost...

Under T20 currently, Low Levels (1-2) go unconscious first, die from additional. Mid Levels (3-4) Tend to be killed about the time they go unconscious. High Levels (5-8) tend to be killed before even being stunned.

In heavy armors, however, this becomes magnified. It's not realistic, but it is fun, workable, and easy to deal with. It is dangerous enough to make them pause before combat, and focus on getting the jump when they do fight. And a single crit can kill just about any human.

The "Levels" issue is almost transparent in play, due to skill based mechanics. (This is even more true for T20 than 3E or SW, where paranormal capabilities are tightly class-level linked; T20 has almost no tightly level-linked abilities besides Hitpoints, BAB and Saves.)

In fact, the armor rules from T20 are so nice, I'm thinking of using them in a 3e game...

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-aramis
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Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

 

[ronaldo1]

What are the armor rules like? Do weapons have a penetration value? If so is it based on attack type? Does armor have damage reduction? Or is it junk like Star Wars where armor adds to armor class and does no damage reduction?

Thanks

 

[aramis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ronaldo1:
What are the armor rules like? Do weapons have a penetration value? If so is it based on attack type? Does armor have damage reduction? Or is it junk like Star Wars where armor adds to armor class and does no damage reduction?

Thanks<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Weapons have only the standard D20 stats except size. (I've been arguing with hunter over the need for having the weapon sizes... since I started in the playtest. I want them. Still. )

Armors have an armor rating which changes how you read the damage dice. It is simple enough to do in play, but I won't go into details. You make one throw; the unadjusted throw resultis stamina. The armor adjusted result (of the same throw of the dice) is the lifeblood.

So, for purposes of unconsciousness, armor makes you no better. For purposes of surviving, it makes all the difference in the world.

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-aramis
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Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

 

[allthumbs]

What about the other angle? What kind of damage do weapons like ACRs and FGMPs inflict? Other d20 products have what seem to be underpowered damage for most firearms.

 

[hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aramis:
So, for purposes of unconsciousness, armor makes you no better.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not quite correct. The Armor is factored into the character's base AC which makes it harder to hit in the first place and thus less likely to do any damage stamina or otherwise.

Hunter

 

[hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by allthumbs:
What about the other angle? What kind of damage do weapons like ACRs and FGMPs inflict? Other d20 products have what seem to be underpowered damage for most firearms.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ACR: 1d12+2
PGMP12: 6d12
PGMP13: 7d12
PGMP14: 8d12
FGMP14: 7d20
FGMP15: 9d20

Considering that the average person has 10 points of lifeblood, modern and futuristic weapons are very deadly.

Hunter

[This message has been edited by hunter (edited 21 March 2002).]

 

[dafrca]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunter:
FGMP15: 9d20

Considering that the average person has 10 points of lifeblood, modern and futuristic weapons are very deadly.

Hunter<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you say Ouch...

Even my D&D character with 71 HP would not want to try and take that hit

dafrca

 

[hunter]

Heh, I'm sure we will hear some howls about how deadly combat can be in T20 from the D&D crowd!

Hunter

 

[dafrca]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunter:
Heh, I'm sure we will hear some howls about how deadly combat can be in T20 from the D&D crowd!

Hunter<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trust me, I'm not one of them. I have always thought that gun combat should be deadly once a target is hit.

dafrca

 

[Reginald]

Then one should hope for a very high defense bonus/armor class. I want to spend most of the 3-hour gaming session playing, not creating characters after characters.

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Anyhoo... just some random thoughts

 

[DaveShayne]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Reginald:
Then one should hope for a very high defense bonus/armor class. I want to spend most of the 3-hour gaming session playing, not creating characters after characters.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember, "Cover is your friend," and, "The trick to surviving firefights is to not get involved in firefights."



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I am increasingly of the opinion that RPGs are by the nature of their creation subjective phenomenon. due to the interaction between game designers, game masters, and game players all definitions, rules, settings, and adventures are mutable in acordance with the uncertainty principle as expounded by Heisenburg. This is of course merely my point of view.

David Shayne

 

[hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Reginald:
Then one should hope for a very high defense bonus/armor class. I want to spend most of the 3-hour gaming session playing, not creating characters after characters.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then avoid getting into fire-fights in the first place.

Hunter

 

[Reginald]

Isn't that akin to retiring your character after you create it? Why go out adventuring when you can get killed just once?

 

[hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Reginald:
Isn't that akin to retiring your character after you create it? Why go out adventuring when you can get killed just once?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Adventuring does not always equal firefights. And if you DO get in a firefight, it is not wise to simply stand there and trade bullets with the enemny!

Hunter

 

[Reginald]

No, of course not. One should take advantage of the terrain to provide some decent cover, unless you're stupid enough to meet some strangers in the middle of a flat plain.

Then again, the cover artwork shows how much intellect both wolfhead and "ooglie" cap-wearing, Aloha t-shirt adorning human have in providing cover for their comrades. Hehehe.

 

[hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Reginald:
Then again, the cover artwork shows how much intellect both wolfhead and "ooglie" cap-wearing, Aloha t-shirt adorning human have in providing cover for their comrades. Hehehe.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup and they are just a few seconds away from being toast! Every PC needs comrades like that!

"hey, keep em distracted by dying slowly while the rest of us make for the ship!"

Hunter