Rules Only: Traveller "deadly" Combat Rules discussion

[atpollard]

... I don't really get this whole "deadly as Traveller Rules as written" meme that people keep saying:

A Traveller Character has between 6 (222222) and 45 (FFFFFF) "hit points" with an average of 21 (777777).

A first level Basic D&D Character (same era game) has between 4 HP (Magic user no Constitution bonus) and 12 HP (Fighter with maximum Constitution) with an average of 8 HP (D6+2 Con) [1 HP minimum and 5.5 HP average of you actually roll per R.A.W.].

A Traveller rifle/shotgun will do 3D6/4D6 per attack delivering 10.5/14 average and 18/24 maximum damage per attack to characters with an average of 21 "HP".

A D&D Bow/Longsword will do 1D6/1D8 per attack delivering 3.5/4.5 average and 6/8 maximum damage per attack to characters with an average of 5.5 "HP".

The maximum long range attack in Traveller (3D6 rifle) will not kill the average Traveller character with a single shot even at maximum damage (18 damage vs 21 "HP") while the maximum long range attack in D&D (1D6 bow) will kill the average D&D character with a single shot at maximum damage (6 damage vs 5.5 "HP"). For both games, the average damage requires two hits to kill the average character.

For close range combat (shotguns and swords), the average character will survive average damage from a shotgun blast in Traveller (14 dam/21 hp) and the average character will survive the average longword attack in D&D (4.5 dam/5.5 hp). Maximum damage will kill the average character in both systems (24 dam/21 hp & 8 dam/5.5 hp) and maximum damage will not kill maximum HP in both systems (24 dam/36-45 hp & 8 dam/12 hp).

So D&D is deadlier for characters than Traveller ... but everyone doesn't choose other combat systems and complain about how "deadly" combat is in D&D.

 

[whulorigan]

... I don't really get this whole "deadly as Traveller Rules as written" meme that people keep saying:

A Traveller Character has between 6 (222222) and 45 (FFFFFF) "hit points" with an average of 21 (777777).

A first level Basic D&D Character (same era game) has between 4 HP (Magic user no Constitution bonus) and 12 HP (Fighter with maximum Constitution) with an average of 8 HP (D6+2 Con) [1 HP minimum and 5.5 HP average of you actually roll per R.A.W.].

.....

True, but most people are probably looking thru the lens of: "Yes, but my D&D character will increase in HPs as he goes up in level if he survives." (And many people house-ruled - and later versions specified - that 1st level characters automatically got maximum HPs). Whereas Traveller characters' "HPs" are permanently fixed.

The other thing to consider is that in D&D you could keep going as long as you had positive HPs (different rulesets & house-rules said different things about going below zero-HPs). In Traveller you were potentially out of action on a first hit at ~1/3 HP damage (first-blood rule), and in need of critical care at ~2/3 HP damage.

But I agree with you, peoples' reactions are a bit overblown.

Traveller compares better to Runequest/BRP in general style.

So D&D is deadlier for characters than Traveller ... but everyone doesn't choose other combat systems and complain about how "deadly" combat is in D&D.

BTW, *I* always disliked D&D at very low level for this very reason - I always thought the ideal character level was about 3rd level (for non-spell-casters, at any rate). At 3rd level (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, etc.) you had some staying-power, but you were far from an invincible super-hero who could simply "wade into the fray". One of the reasons we eventually went over to Runequest as a rule-mechanic: More HPs than 1st level D&D (about = 3rd level), and then they remained at that level. Any bonus beyond that was due to some magic-item or something you got from elsewhere "in-campaign".

 

[whulorigan]

... I don't really get this whole "deadly as Traveller Rules as written" meme that people keep saying:

Of course, "... deadly as Traveller Rules as written ... " may also mean that they are playing with heavy weapons that the average Traveller shouldn't have . . . . The high-tech battlefield is a deadly place, after all . . .

 

[atpollard]

BTW, *I* always disliked D&D at very low level for this very reason - I always thought the ideal character level was about 3rd level (for non-spell-casters, at any rate). At 3rd level (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, etc.) you had some staying-power, but you were far from an invincible super-hero who could simply "wade into the fray". One of the reasons we eventually went over to Runequest as a rule-mechanic: More HPs than 1st level D&D (about = 3rd level), and then they remained at that level. Any bonus beyond that was due to some magic-item or something you got from elsewhere "in-campaign".

I agree there ... but the core premise of FANTASY was "kill the monster, get the treasure and level up" so COMBAT was the whole point (Orcs needed killing by a band of Heroes). STAR MERCS as a campaign tended to be more of the "exception" than the "rule" in Science Fiction of the Era.

The "fix" in Traveller always seemed to just strip the fiddly parts [Does anyone enjoy the First Blood. Unconscious, Distribute damage by dice among abilities mechanic complexity of the CT RAW?] and just throw STR + DEX + END into a "HP POOL". I think the Sci-Fi tropes always had a LOT of medical stuff that should have been added to deal with trauma in negative HP scenarios to give those MEDIC skills more "teeth" in the game.

The pieces were always there, it was the fiddly mechanics that needed tweaking for improved playability.

 

[kilemall]

I do actually like distribution of damage and precisely for personal/visualization/medic drama.

The unconscious first blood thing is a bit much, but I look at it as a sort of simplification, a mission kill without killing people.

As for lethality, it also bothered me that a pistol couldn’t kill or most melee weapons. I went to a 1d/2d/3d location damage determination, then a pen damage system off Striker where the armor could shave off die or the weapon is too powerful and adds die.

Yields a 0-6d result range, handles mixed vest/unarmored, tends to average like CT weapons but a lucky shot to say an unarmored head by pistol or even dagger will kill, and an FGMP hit on say an arm or leg just destroys that but doesn’t necessarily kill the victim.

I suppose a functional simplification would be to do damage like CT animals, a mission kill disable number followed by kill number. I would use the highest value for the kill number, and add the other two for the disable number, or standardize on STR+DEX/END. Note whatever mix it is for post battle functionality and medical recovery.

 

[atpollard]

I liked the STRIKER conversion of damage from points to DICE and then further simplifying it to "light", "serious" and "critical" wounds [apologies if I got the nomenclature wrong.] That lent itself to the "Rule 68A" three tier task system allowing a hit of 6 to be a "light", an 8 to be "serious" and a 10 to be "critical" with dice of damage for weapon and Armor protection being modifiers to move the damage up or down in severity.

It allowed for a HIT to be a hit or miss with armor impacting damage rather than needing a hit matrix table. It allowed armors to be "proof" against certain weapons while only reducing damage on other weapons. It allowed for the possibility of "light wounds" from powerful weapons and "critical wounds" from a holdout pistol ... while giving both high HD weapons and Heavy Armor counterbalancing benefits ... horses for courses.

I just found the basic CT combat too slow ... too many tables. Too many steps. Too many special cases. Too many decision points ... per person per shot.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The maximum long range attack in Traveller (3D6 rifle) will not kill the average Traveller character with a single shot even at maximum damage (18 damage vs 21 "HP") ...

If you actually intend to hurt someone you use an autorifle, and attack several times per round, twice on the main target and once on up to two other targets.

A few riflemen can rather likely incapacitate or outright kill a party in a single round.


And as already stated the problem doesn't go away when you level up after a few fights...


Yes, that is too deadly.

 

[mike wightman]

I did away with the first blood rule as applying on the first hit.

Instead the first blood rule is applied if you roll a natural 12 to hit or if you take a DM of -4 to aim for the head or other body location.

 

[atpollard]

If you actually intend to hurt someone you use an autorifle, and attack several times per round, twice on the main target and once on up to two other targets.

A few riflemen can rather likely incapacitate or outright kill a party in a single round.

And as already stated the problem doesn't go away when you level up after a few fights...

Yes, that is too deadly.

The issue isn't actually the COMBAT rules, it is the ignoring of other rules ...

LAW LEVEL
0 No prohibitions.
1 Body pistols undetectable by standard detectors, explosives (bombs, grenades), and poison gas prohibited.
2 Portable energy weapons (laser carbine, laser rifle) prohibited. Ship's gunnery not affected.
3 Weapons of a strict military nature (machine guns, automatic rifles) prohibited.
4 Light assault weapons (sub-machineguns) prohibited.
5 Personal concealable firearms (such as pistols and revolvers) prohibited.
6 Most firearms (all except shotguns) prohibited. The carrying of any type of weapon openly is discouraged.
7 Shotguns are prohibited.

So your "Autorifle" is permitted at LL 0-2 and PROHIBITED at LL 3+.

A private plane lands at any major International Airport and a man steps off with his B.A.R. slung over his shoulder. How long do you think he will wander the city streets before the police arrive? Yet "Travellers" ignore the local Law Level with reckless abandon and complain that weapons prohibited outside of a WAR ZONE are too deadly. (vs D&D, where a 6th lever fighter shrugs off a direct hit by the equivalent of a mortar and then fires the equivalent of a hand-held 70mm canon back at them).

Care to search the Traveller Map and see how many LL 0-2 worlds there are?
It really was set up to be "pistols and rifles and shotguns and blades and cutlasses" in most fights ... just like the Pulp Fiction of the era.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The issue isn't actually the COMBAT rules, it is the ignoring of other rules ...

LAW LEVEL

So your "Autorifle" is permitted at LL 0-2 and PROHIBITED at LL 3+.

And if you intend to murderhobo, you care?

Most firefights don't happen under police supervision, in my limited experience.

How many AK-47s are out in the wild?

 

[infojunky]

So open that can of worms....

I have been pondering this recently. A lot!

For years I have used the charts in AHL for damage. Kinda, received wounds after penetration is 1/2d6 per point of penetration over armor.

Though recently I have been pondering Pen-Armor=dm on each die of a 3d6 standard wound. With each die assignable as per CT core rules.

 

[infojunky]

It really was set up to be "pistols and rifles and shotguns and blades and cutlasses" in most fights ... just like the Pulp Fiction of the era.

Most of my games I describe as knife and pistol work, in terms of combat. A lot of this is the tone you want to set for your game.

My biggest bug-a-boo right now is damaging things rather the peoples. Vehicles mostly.

 

[whartung]

Ostensibly that's a feature of the TNE/T2K/DC "GDW House Rules". You can shoot your pistol at a Main Battle Tank, and find out what happens.

Alternatively, the tank can shoot you in the chest with its main gun, and you can also figure out what happens.

(Here's a hint, auto cannon, in general are quite effective against, well, most everything...)

 

[Captain Bob of the LEXX]

For many years I just used a basic animal of 50kg for hits 4/2 (6) and used that versus total of hit points. I just thought it was easier to convey to the players. For example, a character might have an average of 21 total hits points giving him/her/etc a 14/7, with 14 causing unconscious and extra 7 for the end.

 

[Badenov]

So, I played Traveller using the Hammer's Slammers supplement for about 4 years (until the MUCK died), and as whulorigan points out, a Traveller character may be down at 7 damage, if it comes in one shot and exceeds their End. Even if not, they are out at End+(Str or Dex) and the last is a bit of a buffer between them and final death. Hammer's Slammers did make body armor pretty much de rigeur, but it was generally appropriate to wear it at all times. The basic armor would knock an attack down by 10, so a 4d6+4 attack, which was fairly typical, that would do 18 on average would only do 8 after armor. That's often still a takedown, which the players took full advantage of. In general, armor in D&D does not reduce damage (apart from a couple very special types), so armor is a huge boost to survival in Traveller. Much more typical in civilian hands are 3d6 weapons and light/unobtrusive armor in the 4-6 range. That makes the average hit about 5, which is almost always less than End, so no one-shot KOs, and is pretty survivable, though still 3 hits to a takedown. I'm not sure if I have a point, or if I'm just sharing experience, but the point made by others that D&D characters quickly grow out of their danger area, where Traveller characters don't, I think is the real essence of the 'Traveller is deadly' feeling.

 

[mike wightman]

Hits going to End first is unique to Mongoose Traveller and some of its derivatives.

The classic rule was:

Wound points are applied to the target’s (defending character’s) strength, dexterity and endurance on a temporary basis. Each die rolled (for example, each of the two dice rolled in a result of 2D) is taken as a single wound or group of hits, and must be applied to a single characteristic; further modifications may be distributed against, or added to, such wound groups as desired (players do this themselves; the referee does it for non-player characters).
The first wound received by any character, however, can be sufficient to stun or daze him or her, and is handled differently. This first wound received is applied entirely to one of the three physical characteristics (strength, dexterity or endurance), determined randomly. As a result, first blood may immediately incapacitate or even kill.

 

[infojunky]

Ostensibly that's a feature of the TNE/T2K/DC "GDW House Rules". You can shoot your pistol at a Main Battle Tank, and find out what happens.

Alternatively, the tank can shoot you in the chest with its main gun, and you can also figure out what happens.

(Here's a hint, auto cannon, in general are quite effective against, well, most everything...)

My only issue with those set of rules is where they center. I.e. they are really a set of vehicle rules, Part of the same problem with Striker.

 

[infojunky]

For many years I just used a basic animal of 50kg for hits 4/2 (6) and used that versus total of hit points. I just thought it was easier to convey to the players. For example, a character might have an average of 21 total hits points giving him/her/etc a 14/7, with 14 causing unconscious and extra 7 for the end.

Honestly, I generally reverse those numbers... At the 7 point level I have characters rolling to remain on their feet... Similar to MT's Life Points...

 

[Badenov]

Hits going to End first is unique to Mongoose Traveller and some of its derivatives.

The classic rule was:

That's interesting, and between that and random stats, it makes survivability a much greater gamble. That really drives the playstyle, I suppose.

 

[bookwyrm]

... I don't really get this whole "deadly as Traveller Rules as written" meme that people keep saying:

Outside of Psionics & High Tech Medicine, it takes awhile to heal any injuries. The worse the injuries, the longer the recovery. And I'm not too sure where to find that Raise Dead Spell/Item, even the Black Market in the dark shadows of the Star Port/Town might say they have something, but can you really trust it?

On the other hand, any game can be 'Deadly as a Traveller Game' if that's the way a group want it.

On a last note, I kind of thought the opening line referred to Prior History when creating a Character, which is deadly in it's own way.