CT+ World Generation

[RandyT0001]

I haven't read all of the posts about CT+ so this is something of a fishing expedition. I'm curious if there has been any discussion about changes to the world/system generation as is outlined in CT (LBB3/LBB6)?

My basic idea is to generate the world physical stats, size, atmosphere, and hydrographics. After this the population, government and law level is determined based partially on the physical stats. Then the trade classifications followed by the starport. Last the remaing system objects including the star, any moons, gas giants, etc. are determined with DM's based on the previous stats generated.

I'm not looking for a "super-realistic" system I just desire a more reasonable system. I have a problem when one planet has 20 billion people on it in a very thin atmosphere and with no surface water tidelocked to a M8V star while the the next one orbits a F,G,K star in it's habitable zone, has a standard atmosphere, surface water but only has 30,000 people on it. I want to try and fix that.

Comments, questions, tomatoes?

 

[Berg]

There should be a DM for neighbouring systems within J-6 or something. Also, all Physical stats of an area (sector, subsector) should be done before the rest. Right now I'm correcting all the steller data for the Trojan Reaches from H&E with Mr. Mal's stellar tables. Tedious

Tom

 

[Malenfant]

Hey, they're as streamlined as I could get 'em

.

 

[Berg]

That's funny, I didn't mean your tables, I mean't the fact I have to fix all this stuff that is so obviously broken you wonder why anyone accepted it in the first place.

But I still wish your excellent tables were programmed

Tom

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Berg:
That's funny, I didn't mean your tables, I mean't the fact I have to fix all this stuff that is so obviously broken you wonder why anyone accepted it in the first place.
Tom

Someone did the best they could with limited research and understanding of the subject, in the pre-Internet age where research meant hours looking up books in the library, and not always having the books you wanted or needed.

It served.

More effort and knowledge is available now. Therefore, it is only natural that a switch to a superior process should occur.

What we need is the courage to say, "Let's get rid of the old garbage and begin anew. I know it'll hurt because of difference with what has been presented earlier, but the overall advantage to be gained from doing so is so enormous that it is all worthwhile."

 

[Berg]

Very true. No insult intended, just lots of work ahead, which I don't mind if it helps others. Just wondering if the stellar stuff was ever Canon?

Tom

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Berg:
Very true. No insult intended, just lots of work ahead, which I don't mind if it helps others. Just wondering if the stellar stuff was ever Canon?

Tom

Only the published stuff was canon for sure.

The trouble is, the Sunbane/GEnie information, and the slighly different Galactic informaiton, was used so far and wide that it is treated by many as though it might as well be canon.

As seen in the stalled CSSP, many are willing to discard such non-canon data. However, it is unknown how far this goes beyond CotI.

The effective message in the T5 Playtest area was that the non-canon data, including the severely flawed stellar data, was going to be made canon in the formerly-much-awaited new Second Survey product (it's not awaited by me any longer, now that I know it won't be contain corrected/improved data).

 

[Malenfant]

Yeah Berg, I was just teasing

. AFAIK, Flynn has a programmed version of it (we used that for the TNE:1248 playtest), I don't know if he'd be willing to make it available but you could ask.

What we need is the courage to say, "Let's get rid of the old garbage and begin anew. I know it'll hurt because of difference with what has been presented earlier, but the overall advantage to be gained from doing so is so enormous that it is all worthwhile."

Absolutely, RoS. And as you mention, Marc seems to be entirely against this concept from what was we gathered from the T5 playtest.

 

[Berg]

I think a smaller tweak to the UWP is required, but a major rework of the supposed "canon" stellar data is definately required. This "should be" palatable to "canonists" as the UWP are the heart of it all. But then again they're not called canonists for nothing

Tom

 

[Fritz_Brown]

That's "canonista" to you, Berg!

But, hey, I am all for trashing a goodly part of the OTU stellar data. Let's keep one really egregious example of each bad bit, though - just for old times' sake.

 

[RandyT0001]

I'm not really looking to 'fix' the broken UWP's from the Genie site. I'm more interested in devising a new system to generate the UWP's. I want to keep the familiar UWP's format that is associated with Traveller. Here's my first few ideas and notes about it.

Physical
World size (dia. miles) = 2d6-2 (if size=0 then atmo and hydro=0)
Atmosphere = 2d6-7+size
Hydrographics = 2d6-7+size

Social
Population = d6+DM's DM's: +1 if size 7-9; +1 if Atmosphere 5,6,8; +1 if Hydrographics 4-9, +1 if the world meets all three critera (ie has size 7, atmo 6, and hydro 5 gives it another +1)
Government = 2d6-7+population (if pop=0, then government=0) I want to rework the actual table from what is in LBB6 later
Law Level = 2d6-7+government (if pop=0, then law level=0)

Trade classifications
(as per LBB 7)

Starport
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Roll Type
2 E
3 E
4 D
5 D
6 C
7 C
8 C
9 B
10 B
11 A
12+ A</pre>[/QUOTE]DM's: +1 if populated and size 0, +2 population 6+, +1 if hydrographics 3+, if pop=0 the starport = E
The X class starport is referee defined since it is associated with interdicition.

I'm still working on the rest.

 

[Berg]

That's "canonista" to you, Berg!

I new the rebellion would start soon

The strange thing is I've looked at various site w/ atlases etc. and not only is the stellar data different but even the UWP's

This would be fine if they were ATU's or My TU etc.., but they seem to claim OTU status. I'm not arguing about the validity of any claims, just my ability to find this darn elusive canon

When I do I'll use my gauss rifle and the new CT+ combat rules

Tom

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

http://traveller.mu.org/house/altWorldGeneration.html

Courtesy of the Missouri Archive. Check it out, there's a lot of good stuff there - most of it was written to try and correct the same things that you guys are trying to correct.

 

[rhoneycutt]

I have a system that is similar in concept to Mr. Tyler's. I posted in quite a while ago on TML. Here is the gist of it.

size=2d ( greater chance of an earth-like size )
atm= 2d+size-7 ( standard method )
hyd=2d+atm-7 ( atm pressure keeps water from evaporating )

pop=2d+mods based on atm and hyd%
( atm mods; -1 for each 'step' away from std pressure, -1 for taint )
( hyd mods; -1 for each 2 steps away from 7 )
gov and law are as MT
trade classification are as MT

Social profile is as per Pocket Empires
( average of values become 'culture' value )
( the social profile results modify tech level )
Tech= 1d+social profile mods+pop-6
( social profile gives clues as to how likely a world will advance and the pop-6 limits tech by limiting ppl to maintain tech and infrastructure..imtu tech is the local manufacturing ability )

starport=is determined by tech

I'll dig my notes out and write this stuff up proper someday. Sooner if anyone is interested.

 

[Straybow]

Atm and size (gravity) effect on hydro is more like a step function. Below a certain level the hydro can only be zero, above that there is no limitation to the planet's ability to keep seas.

The size and proximity of other planets is more likely to effect the distribution of volatiles. If Mars didn't have two larger neighbors to compete with (Earth and Venus) it might've captured proportionately more volatiles from comets. Then there's the role of gas giants...

 

[Jeffr0]

GURPS First-In doesn't have a quick and dirty planet/star gen system... but the social side of the UWP is generated in much the same way as CT.

It includes many tweaks and modifiers to the die rolls so that population and so forth are more reasonable.

 

[Jeffr0]

Wow.

Did you really use Zipf's Law to get the population levels correct??

I'm impressed.

I like being able to see "under the hood" and know why you did things a certain way.

 

[Merxiless]

Grand Survey also has good low level rules for determining mineral resources, but only after you start with the raw UPP.

If you are looking for something that gens up the world prior to determining population, there was a file from an author in I think Australia, some years ago, called FSE. It basically did a radius away from earth, plus factored in mineral resources, to determine likelihood of colonization, and ultimately population, for a neart earth, not too distant future - type game.

 

[Maladominus]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
And as you mention, Marc seems to be entirely against this concept from what was we gathered from the T5 playtest.

What exactly is he against?

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Maladominus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Malenfant:
And as you mention, Marc seems to be entirely against this concept from what was we gathered from the T5 playtest.

What exactly is he against? </font>[/QUOTE]Tossing or fixing all the UPPs ever made by flawed random programs or blind application of random resutls, to better model realistic systems and avoid hundreds of uniquely bizarre systems that require much handwaving to explain, typically by invoking THE ANCIENTS... iirc.