Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Ahhh! I can look at that stuff, now that I am a Peer, I think. I will take a gander.
CT+, what would you do?
- Thread starter mike wightman
- Start date
P
Pickles
Guest
Unfortunately, the electronic version of the tables was lost two blown hard drives ago.
I'll probably have to rewrite them, now that you've released that particular bee into my bonnet ...
The weapon and armour stats were extrapolated from the Striker weapons tables, with extra bits taken from Book 1 and Mercenary.
Penetration only really comes into it with military weaponry; most handgun slugs have a Pen of zero or 1 and have to rely on damage rolls to get through armour. Oh, and the tables are for a BRP-style combat system, so they use the whole range of polygonal dice.
Last edited:
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Absolutely better than most. Of course, at that distance, you might not be able to tell what kind of handgun it was, and couldn't properly fill out the paperwork in the back of the little booklet that comes with a new PAGST. I got a brand new one once, and yes, there is a little book with directions (and lots of pictures, since I was with the Army) and a form to fill out in the back if your helmet takes a round - including where it penetrated, and what kind of round/weapon.
P
Pickles
Guest
True, but I was talking about standard slugs. BTW, I've heard rumours from those in the trade that there are stopping power problems with the FiveSeven ammo ... maybe time to downgrade the damage a bit.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
OK, how would I do CT+?
1) 2d6 for stats - I still think it's cool to use hexadecimal. I could do d20, but would want, maybe, 3d6+2 for PCs (that whole bellcurve thing).
2) I could go with either CT or T20 attributes. I have no problem with adding Wisdom into the CT mix if it used for Intuition. And, our character sheets always had an attribute for Appearance, anyway. Charisma makes that more complete.
3) Homeworld/"1st level" skills from T20 is a keeper. But, I would include the homeworld stuff in what you are allowed to get prior to enlisting, not in addition to. I wouldn't want 4 times what a regular advancement would give you, though! Criminy, I tried doing a character with high Int, and I couldn't find enough skills that I really wanted!
4) Allow a percentage (after taking out homeworld-related) of pre-enlistment skills to be chosen, with rest random. This provides a little challenge for the player. And, obviously, the tables would need to be based on homeworld/background/"class"/something.
5) Feats! Feats are good, but they (many times, not all) are on the wrong things in T20. Feats would be things that would make other people say, "It's magic how he works that spanner" or "She could talk a Vargr into eating dry cat food" or "How'd he do that?" They might add bonuses to things you could learn and grow skilled at, but for these characters it's just natural. And, not so many per character as T20.
6) I like the idea of Professional, Technical and Knowledge skills. Only allow Knowledge skills, though, based on Education attribute (not Intelligence).
7) Use something more akin to CT enlistments, but use experience points to determine how many skills received per year/term. Then, require a mixture of random and chosen skills. Allow skills from outside the service matrix at a higher cost (a la T20), and allow a "Life Pursuit" skill or two to be developed at regular cost. (Oh yeah, derive your XPs from survival, decorations, promotions, type of duty for that year, etc.)
8) Re-include attribute increases as a very available option during Prior History creation. Make them "buyable" just like the skills.
9) I don't know if I can stress this enough:
NO Levels!!! Besides being Traveller heresy (IMO), it is counterintuitive to folks who haven't been sucked in by the D&D vortex. There are no levels in life - there are ranks, titles, life stages, but no levels. I can't resist snake venom any more now than I could when I was 18. If I had spent some time developing an immunity, yeah, but not just because I'm older and more experienced. I also can't shoot any better because I am older - I could, though, if I managed to get out and practice more.
10) OTU stuff. It should come separate, but all the classic stuff should be bundled up for use (all the different eras!) by Traveller fans like me.
11) Ships and Worlds: hire some of the folks around here (Sigg, etc.) to set up the world design and ship design sections. You might have to get them physically in the same location to allow them to "work out" a few of the disagreements in viewpoints.
My bit more than Cr.02
1) 2d6 for stats - I still think it's cool to use hexadecimal. I could do d20, but would want, maybe, 3d6+2 for PCs (that whole bellcurve thing).
2) I could go with either CT or T20 attributes. I have no problem with adding Wisdom into the CT mix if it used for Intuition. And, our character sheets always had an attribute for Appearance, anyway. Charisma makes that more complete.
3) Homeworld/"1st level" skills from T20 is a keeper. But, I would include the homeworld stuff in what you are allowed to get prior to enlisting, not in addition to. I wouldn't want 4 times what a regular advancement would give you, though! Criminy, I tried doing a character with high Int, and I couldn't find enough skills that I really wanted!
4) Allow a percentage (after taking out homeworld-related) of pre-enlistment skills to be chosen, with rest random. This provides a little challenge for the player. And, obviously, the tables would need to be based on homeworld/background/"class"/something.
5) Feats! Feats are good, but they (many times, not all) are on the wrong things in T20. Feats would be things that would make other people say, "It's magic how he works that spanner" or "She could talk a Vargr into eating dry cat food" or "How'd he do that?" They might add bonuses to things you could learn and grow skilled at, but for these characters it's just natural. And, not so many per character as T20.
6) I like the idea of Professional, Technical and Knowledge skills. Only allow Knowledge skills, though, based on Education attribute (not Intelligence).
7) Use something more akin to CT enlistments, but use experience points to determine how many skills received per year/term. Then, require a mixture of random and chosen skills. Allow skills from outside the service matrix at a higher cost (a la T20), and allow a "Life Pursuit" skill or two to be developed at regular cost. (Oh yeah, derive your XPs from survival, decorations, promotions, type of duty for that year, etc.)
8) Re-include attribute increases as a very available option during Prior History creation. Make them "buyable" just like the skills.
9) I don't know if I can stress this enough:
NO Levels!!! Besides being Traveller heresy (IMO), it is counterintuitive to folks who haven't been sucked in by the D&D vortex. There are no levels in life - there are ranks, titles, life stages, but no levels. I can't resist snake venom any more now than I could when I was 18. If I had spent some time developing an immunity, yeah, but not just because I'm older and more experienced. I also can't shoot any better because I am older - I could, though, if I managed to get out and practice more.10) OTU stuff. It should come separate, but all the classic stuff should be bundled up for use (all the different eras!) by Traveller fans like me.
11) Ships and Worlds: hire some of the folks around here (Sigg, etc.) to set up the world design and ship design sections. You might have to get them physically in the same location to allow them to "work out" a few of the disagreements in viewpoints.
My bit more than Cr.02
P
Pickles
Guest
For the gearheads:
1: A fully-scaled system for vehicle design, from scooters to starships (and beyond, to space stations).
2: A weapons design system compatible with the above.
Hmm, this sounds a bit like GURPS Vehicles. Or Striker ...
1: A fully-scaled system for vehicle design, from scooters to starships (and beyond, to space stations).
2: A weapons design system compatible with the above.
Hmm, this sounds a bit like GURPS Vehicles. Or Striker ...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I hate to resurrect an old thread, but does anyone know where page one has gone?
Or what is the web site that archives old stuff?
[edit]never mind, somehow I can now read page one again, which I couldn't before - and I'm not deleting this just in case it disappears again [/edit]
Or what is the web site that archives old stuff?
[edit]never mind, somehow I can now read page one again, which I couldn't before - and I'm not deleting this just in case it disappears again
[/edit]
M
Malenfant
Guest
FWIW, that's happened to me here once before too.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Odd isn't it?
Did you try resurrecting the thread to see if the missing stuff would come back?
Did you try resurrecting the thread to see if the missing stuff would come back?
FWIW QLI has blocked the Wayback Machine from archiving the forums and some other sections.
"We're sorry, access to - has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt."
However google does have at least a basic cache of the forums. I doubt it's very good at archiving lost forum threads.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Thanks for the link Casey, this time I'll add it to favourites
Okay, here's the points I've collected for CT+. Most of the points raised are either complementary or reconcilable; in other words, there's a lot of agreement here.
I've tried to group compatible wants into the same point; if I've made a mistake or your mind has changed, please PM me and I'll update this list. Maybe we can shrink this down to an orthogonal set.
Here's each category, with opinions in the order of postage.
Sigg = "Sigg Oddra"
Taylor = Michael Taylor
Fralix = Andy Fralix
Chargen A - General
Want - Blank "Career Form" to play with
MT's basic CG. (Sigg, Aramis, Fralix, robject, Taylor (I think), Zakrol)
CT chargen plus extended chargen from LBBs 4, 5, 7, Citizens. (I suspect this is going to be very similar to MT, but I'll leave it separate for now -robject) (Maladominus)
Add chargen from all CT alien supplements, including minor human races. (Maladominus)
2d6 for stats. (Fritz88, robject)
CT attributes. (Fritz88, robject)
T20 attributes. (Fritz88)
Use something like CT enlistments. (Fritz88)
Derive your XPs from survival, decorations, promotions, type of duty for that year, etc. (Fritz88)
Have attribute increases available during Prior History creation. (Fritz88)
NO Levels! (Fritz88, robject)
Specializations or Life Pursuits as a substitute for Citizens career resolution (but Citizens stuff is okay to have also). (robject)
Chargen B - Skill Acquisition
Want - Proposed skill lists
More skills than CT, fewer than MT. (Sigg, robject)
Clean up/integrate the list to blend with the careers. (Maladominus)
On the acquired skills table: "pick from, or roll dice on, the following tables", with the caveat that if you choose, no more than two levels in a particular skill can be gained per term of service. (Sigg)
Eliminate random rolls for skills. (Taylor)
Professional, Technical and Knowledge skills. (Fritz88)
Put Knowledge-type skills available in the "8+ Education only" skill list so some skills are not available to the truly education-challenged. (Taylor, Fritz88)
Have a combination of basic skills, choice, and randomly assigned skills depending on type of character. (Fralix)
No limit on number of skill levels. (Fralix)
Feats/Arcane Skills. (Fritz88, robject)
Use experience points to determine how many skills received per year/term. (Fritz88)
Allow skills from outside the service matrix at a higher cost. (Fritz88)
Chargen C - Life Pursuits
Use Life Pursuits as a mechanism for player choice and/or specialization. (Sigg, Fritz88, robject)
Chargen D - Default/Homeworld Skills
Homeworld skills (level-0 or level-1), some chosen, prior to enlistment. (Taylor, Fritz88, robject)
Chargen E - Extras
A special duty roll to gain more benefits per tem. (Sigg, robject)
Add/merge in ideas/careers from the old T5 playtest chargen. (robject)
Benefits: Rolls on the money table are what you have managed to save during your terms of service. Assume that the character has acquired any basic equipment reasonable to their past history. Unusual or special (for example, military only) equipment must be purchased or acquired by some means up to the PC and referee. (Fralix)
Add level 7 & 8 to benefits tables and add an appriate means of reaching the DM to access those levels. All ship benefits would be on level 8 and add equalivalent benefits to those services that lack them. Make all multiple benefits meaningful. (Don't let additional TAS rolls become wasted rolls.) (Fralix)
Task System
Want - one page "at a glance" task description
Want - one page of task examples
Target number scale of 4 8 12 16 20, and a DM of characteristic/3. (Aramis, Sigg, robject)
Equipment
Add weapons and armour from Mercenary. (Sigg)
Integrate the newer gear and weaponry all in one place. (Maladominus)
Use the "Integrated Equipment List" (robject)
Personal Combat
Armor reduces damage. (Sigg, Taylor, robject)
Use flexible vs rigid armor. (Sigg, robject)
T4/T20 hybrid damage system (simpler than MT's pen/dmg rules, closer to CT). (Sigg, robject, kafka47?)
Weapons should have pen and damage values. (Amazingly great for scalability, closer to MT) (Oz, Aramis, Bromgrev)
Keep the same old combat system, because changing it would seriously alter the "Classic setting". (Maladominus)
Add a penetration roll that determines how much (if any) damage is deducted from the weapon's impact. (Oz)
It would be nice to have a close call kind of injury result: something that will leave you with noting more than a scar to brag about. (far-trader, robject)
Use something like the 2300AD system. (Fralix)
Add in a combat hit location chart. (kafka47)
Vehicle Design
Starship construction based on T20/High Guard. (Sigg, Fralix, Aramis)
Vehicle/Starship construction on two levels: a modular design level, somewhere between HG and LBB2 in complexity, and a module design level. (robject)
A fully-scaled system for vehicle design, from scooters to starships (and beyond, to space stations). (Bromgrev, robject)
Vehicle Combat
Starship combat based on Mayday/LBB2 hybrid plus sensor tasks from MT. (Sigg, robject)
Use MT's damage rules. (Aramis)
Computers
Computer program rules from LBB2. (Sigg)
Computer hardware rules from T4. (robject)
Trade
Trade based on T20's tables, but with a per parsec revenue base. (Sigg)
LBB-based (perhaps revised) rules. (robject)
Worlds
LBB3, as-is. (Sigg)
Etc
Use TNE Initiative and Contacts rules. (Aramis)
A weapons design system compatible with the vehicle design system. (Bromgrev, robject)
Include all the necessary deckplans of all typical player career ships (i.e. Types S, A, L, K, etc) in ONE section. (Maladominus, robject)
Finally, add some polish or extra minor delicious goodness. For example, does anyone have a clue what the Logo/Banner of the Two Thousand Worlds is? I dont think it exists!! I've never seen what the symbol of the K'Kree people. Certainly this is something that would be nice as "brand new never-seen material" to add polish to any proposed product. (Maladominus)
I've tried to group compatible wants into the same point; if I've made a mistake or your mind has changed, please PM me and I'll update this list. Maybe we can shrink this down to an orthogonal set.
Here's each category, with opinions in the order of postage.
Sigg = "Sigg Oddra"
Taylor = Michael Taylor
Fralix = Andy Fralix
Chargen A - General
Want - Blank "Career Form" to play with
MT's basic CG. (Sigg, Aramis, Fralix, robject, Taylor (I think), Zakrol)
CT chargen plus extended chargen from LBBs 4, 5, 7, Citizens. (I suspect this is going to be very similar to MT, but I'll leave it separate for now -robject) (Maladominus)
Add chargen from all CT alien supplements, including minor human races. (Maladominus)
2d6 for stats. (Fritz88, robject)
CT attributes. (Fritz88, robject)
T20 attributes. (Fritz88)
Use something like CT enlistments. (Fritz88)
Derive your XPs from survival, decorations, promotions, type of duty for that year, etc. (Fritz88)
Have attribute increases available during Prior History creation. (Fritz88)
NO Levels! (Fritz88, robject)
Specializations or Life Pursuits as a substitute for Citizens career resolution (but Citizens stuff is okay to have also). (robject)
Chargen B - Skill Acquisition
Want - Proposed skill lists
More skills than CT, fewer than MT. (Sigg, robject)
Clean up/integrate the list to blend with the careers. (Maladominus)
On the acquired skills table: "pick from, or roll dice on, the following tables", with the caveat that if you choose, no more than two levels in a particular skill can be gained per term of service. (Sigg)
Eliminate random rolls for skills. (Taylor)
Professional, Technical and Knowledge skills. (Fritz88)
Put Knowledge-type skills available in the "8+ Education only" skill list so some skills are not available to the truly education-challenged. (Taylor, Fritz88)
Have a combination of basic skills, choice, and randomly assigned skills depending on type of character. (Fralix)
No limit on number of skill levels. (Fralix)
Feats/Arcane Skills. (Fritz88, robject)
Use experience points to determine how many skills received per year/term. (Fritz88)
Allow skills from outside the service matrix at a higher cost. (Fritz88)
Chargen C - Life Pursuits
Use Life Pursuits as a mechanism for player choice and/or specialization. (Sigg, Fritz88, robject)
Chargen D - Default/Homeworld Skills
Homeworld skills (level-0 or level-1), some chosen, prior to enlistment. (Taylor, Fritz88, robject)
Chargen E - Extras
A special duty roll to gain more benefits per tem. (Sigg, robject)
Add/merge in ideas/careers from the old T5 playtest chargen. (robject)
Benefits: Rolls on the money table are what you have managed to save during your terms of service. Assume that the character has acquired any basic equipment reasonable to their past history. Unusual or special (for example, military only) equipment must be purchased or acquired by some means up to the PC and referee. (Fralix)
Add level 7 & 8 to benefits tables and add an appriate means of reaching the DM to access those levels. All ship benefits would be on level 8 and add equalivalent benefits to those services that lack them. Make all multiple benefits meaningful. (Don't let additional TAS rolls become wasted rolls.) (Fralix)
Task System
Want - one page "at a glance" task description
Want - one page of task examples
Target number scale of 4 8 12 16 20, and a DM of characteristic/3. (Aramis, Sigg, robject)
Equipment
Add weapons and armour from Mercenary. (Sigg)
Integrate the newer gear and weaponry all in one place. (Maladominus)
Use the "Integrated Equipment List" (robject)
Personal Combat
Armor reduces damage. (Sigg, Taylor, robject)
Use flexible vs rigid armor. (Sigg, robject)
T4/T20 hybrid damage system (simpler than MT's pen/dmg rules, closer to CT). (Sigg, robject, kafka47?)
Weapons should have pen and damage values. (Amazingly great for scalability, closer to MT) (Oz, Aramis, Bromgrev)
Keep the same old combat system, because changing it would seriously alter the "Classic setting". (Maladominus)
Add a penetration roll that determines how much (if any) damage is deducted from the weapon's impact. (Oz)
It would be nice to have a close call kind of injury result: something that will leave you with noting more than a scar to brag about. (far-trader, robject)
Use something like the 2300AD system. (Fralix)
Add in a combat hit location chart. (kafka47)
Vehicle Design
Starship construction based on T20/High Guard. (Sigg, Fralix, Aramis)
Vehicle/Starship construction on two levels: a modular design level, somewhere between HG and LBB2 in complexity, and a module design level. (robject)
A fully-scaled system for vehicle design, from scooters to starships (and beyond, to space stations). (Bromgrev, robject)
Vehicle Combat
Starship combat based on Mayday/LBB2 hybrid plus sensor tasks from MT. (Sigg, robject)
Use MT's damage rules. (Aramis)
Computers
Computer program rules from LBB2. (Sigg)
Computer hardware rules from T4. (robject)
Trade
Trade based on T20's tables, but with a per parsec revenue base. (Sigg)
LBB-based (perhaps revised) rules. (robject)
Worlds
LBB3, as-is. (Sigg)
Etc
Use TNE Initiative and Contacts rules. (Aramis)
A weapons design system compatible with the vehicle design system. (Bromgrev, robject)
Include all the necessary deckplans of all typical player career ships (i.e. Types S, A, L, K, etc) in ONE section. (Maladominus, robject)
Finally, add some polish or extra minor delicious goodness. For example, does anyone have a clue what the Logo/Banner of the Two Thousand Worlds is? I dont think it exists!! I've never seen what the symbol of the K'Kree people. Certainly this is something that would be nice as "brand new never-seen material" to add polish to any proposed product. (Maladominus)
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It was worth resurrecting the thread just to see that list, thanks rob
On hindsight I would suggest just using the MegaTraveller character generation system, although I think MT went overboard with the number of different skills, I'd rather stick with the CT list plus a few extras.
I'd also add the phrase to the Aquired skills table "pick from, or roll dice on, the following tables", with the caveat that if you choose no more than two levels in a particular skill can be gained per term of service.
As to the task system, I agree with Aramis that a target number scale of 4 8 12 16 20, and a DM of characteristic/3 fits CT better.
And while I have always liked the Striker/AHL/MT separation of penetration and damage I think that the T4/T20 hybrid does much the same thing but is much easier to explain and play out.
On hindsight I would suggest just using the MegaTraveller character generation system, although I think MT went overboard with the number of different skills, I'd rather stick with the CT list plus a few extras.
I'd also add the phrase to the Aquired skills table "pick from, or roll dice on, the following tables", with the caveat that if you choose no more than two levels in a particular skill can be gained per term of service.
As to the task system, I agree with Aramis that a target number scale of 4 8 12 16 20, and a DM of characteristic/3 fits CT better.
And while I have always liked the Striker/AHL/MT separation of penetration and damage I think that the T4/T20 hybrid does much the same thing but is much easier to explain and play out.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Which is useful for a wargame, but less so for a role playing game
Don't get me wrong, I think the MT rules were the best incarnation of the Traveler ruleset, it's just in my experience people who's first taste of Traveller was the MT rules found the combat system to be one of the most difficult parts.
Plus it involves multiplication and division, that'll put yung'uns off it...
"what, I need a calculator to play the game?
".
I thought the purpose of CT+ was for an easy introductory ruleset, keep pen/damage separation for T5
Don't get me wrong, I think the MT rules were the best incarnation of the Traveler ruleset, it's just in my experience people who's first taste of Traveller was the MT rules found the combat system to be one of the most difficult parts.
Plus it involves multiplication and division, that'll put yung'uns off it...
"what, I need a calculator to play the game?
I thought the purpose of CT+ was for an easy introductory ruleset, keep pen/damage separation for T5
Ah, you're probably right. I actually haven't used the full MT combat system, in fact, but I do appreciate the scalability. Maybe there's a happy medium?
I hadn't thought about the wargame-rpg separation much, though I figure Traveller has strong wargame roots.
It's really hard to part with the inherent scalability...
I hadn't thought about the wargame-rpg separation much, though I figure Traveller has strong wargame roots.
It's really hard to part with the inherent scalability...
Maladominus
SOC-14 1K
For my ideal.... CT+ would have been essentially a "cleaned up" CT.
1) Includes Basic rules books
2) Plus all other CT Books (e.g. High Guard, Mercenary, Traders and Gunboats)
3) Integrate Citizens of the Imperium
4) Integrate all CT Alien Supplements
5) Integrate the "lesser" aliens like the Darriens, Vegans, Geonee, etc. These were not officially covered in their own supplements in old CT, but were only barely mentioned in some odd JTAS articles or an entry in some other supplement. Include them as "readily-playable" races.
6) Include all the necessary deckplans of all typical player-ships in ONE section. For example, the Scientists NEED to have deckplans for their Lab Ships, because they could get LabShips from mustering out. Why the heck was this Labship deckplan not provided in COTI in the first place?!
7) Clean up the SKILLS. For example, the Bureacrat profession NEEDS to be able to roll for the Legal skill (which is included for Merchant Prince). Also, the Diplomat NEEDS to be able to roll for the Linguistics skill (which oddly enough appeared in the Scouts). Also, the Scientists NEED to be able to roll for the Robotics skill (which was already covered in the Robots book). And it would be criminal if the Scientists did not have Archaeology skill available. It would also be criminal for the Rogues to not have Stealth skill available (Stealth skill appeared in 3rd party supplement Scouts & Assassins). See the pattern here???? The Skills line-up needed to be re-vamped.
8) Keep the same old combat system, because changing it would seriously alter the "Classic setting". But also integrate the newer gear and weaponry all in one place: for example the stats for the Stun Carbine was buried somewhere in the Death Station adventure.
9) Finally, add some polish or extra minor delicious goodness. For example, does anyone have a clue what the Logo/Banner of the Two Thousand Worlds is? I dont think it exists!! I've never seen what the symbol of the K'Kree people. Certainly this is something that would be nice as "brand new never-seen material" to add polish to any proposed product.
my 5 Imperial cents is all spent now
My only difficulty with the MT combat system (other than its complexity which is not that complicated but more complicated than it need be) is that it loses the swift deadliness that make CT so very cool.
Classic Traveller was a product of the Vietnam War and the combat rules, as we get each version of Traveller it goes more the way of a movie set (haven't used T20) whilst this is good for metaplaying for run of the mill role playing it ought to be more real - guns kill, space is a deadly place, boys & girls. Walking around in battle dress may reduce the impact but it won't give the equiliant -10AC.
But, that said, I would add in all sorts of nice features like a combat hit location chart and give the player an option of using it. The quasi-random and debilitating reduction of ability scores seems to be a fault in CT. If a player got shot in the eyes that would account for the Dex reduced to 2...etc.
Classic Traveller was a product of the Vietnam War and the combat rules, as we get each version of Traveller it goes more the way of a movie set (haven't used T20) whilst this is good for metaplaying for run of the mill role playing it ought to be more real - guns kill, space is a deadly place, boys & girls. Walking around in battle dress may reduce the impact but it won't give the equiliant -10AC.
But, that said, I would add in all sorts of nice features like a combat hit location chart and give the player an option of using it. The quasi-random and debilitating reduction of ability scores seems to be a fault in CT. If a player got shot in the eyes that would account for the Dex reduced to 2...etc.
