Common History and Culture

[epicenter00]

I'd go out on a limb and say that the Imperium is so vast and diverse and the quality of imperium in the Imperium is pretty low. So there'd probably be very little you'd be taught about history the more recent it becomes.

I think history would have a lot of emphasis on the grand, sweeping nature of the Imperium and how it is a historical inevitability.

• Foundation of the Imperium. This is important, there'd be quite a bit of attention paid to the First Imperium and some mention of the Second Imperium. There'd be a lot of retro-nationalistic view on these two, showing how they were both good ideas but flawed and how the current Imperial institutions address these shortcomings.
• Pacification Campaigns. This is mostly a story told from the point of view that the Imperium's wars were all defensive in nature. The PCs, of course, were waged to secure the Imperium's borders and to protect Imperial citizens and society.
• The Civil War. You'd actually have to attend a military history seminar to get details on the actual Emperors and Empresses of the Flag. This would be taught so that Imperials would have rhetoric to defend against criticisms of the Imperium by outsiders; that the Imperium spent a while as a "failed state" fought over by "warlords." The emphasis here is that the Imperium is the "Emperor and the People of the Imperium." The emperor does not necessarily have independent sovereignty, while the people of the Imperium do. Therefore, even as the Emperors fought over the throne, the people of the Imperium were by and large unaffected by the war with rival claimants passed over by "the people" until a suitable claimant came along.
• The Solomani Rim War. There wouldn't be much mention of the "breaking of the power of Solomani nobles at court" and so on. Instead, the emphasis would be the rise of the Solomani movement and how this had polarized the Imperium into a inclusive society (the Imperium) and an exclusive one (the Solomani). Probably no mention of how the Imperium was too exhausted to continue on into the Solomani sphere, instead the war would have been symbolically wrapped up with the capture of Terra showing the Solomani what would happen if hostilities continued and therefore the war ended there.
• The Nth Frontier Wars. This would show the continuing need for a strong, unified Imperium. The Zhodani, the Vargr, and various human states as their allies are out there. They have our planets. We still remember. Each is shown that the initial "dastardly surprise attacks" by the Zhodani were countered and eventually turned back (for the most part) by the Imperial response.

I sometimes wonder, despite all the messiness of the Psionic Supressions, if it'd really be taught in a "high school" history course. Of course, people interested in history at the higher education level would learn about it, but to suppress basic curiosity about psionics, they might not mention it at all for survey and basic history courses. As a result, most Imperial citizens might know there were psionic supressions, but it's likely they're not really sure what exactly happened, why, or how long it took.

 

[Carlobrand]

'The small ship vs large ship debate' is not the same as 'the small ship vs large ship in the Imperium' debate. ...

Not intending to take things on a tangent, but it all still boils down to a gamemaster doing what he wants with his own TU, Imperium or no Imperium. Canon's very clear on the subject, but there's no obligation to embrace all of canon if it's sapping your fun.

 

[GrayPennell]

I let this simmer for a bit before jumping back in. I have to say I disagree with the majority on several fronts. However, the debate has moved forward from big ships/big navy to the status of the Imperium so I am happy about that. This post will focus on a strong Imperium. I expect many of you disagree but I hope for some interesting post on why and what the Imperium looks like.

First, when I asked about the common history of the Imperium the only thing people really mentioned were wars. For a political entity of over 1000 years old this is very one side. (Addressing this in balance is what I am trying to get us to do) This being the only canon we know implies the Imperium is a military state.

Second, the majority of the posters see the wars as minor actions to go unnoticed. I don't know how you can say that. Maybe only a few worlds traded hands but whole fleets were moved in support of all these wars. The wars were not fought for one or two worlds but for Domain size entities. These are a quarter or so the Imperium. In any entity this does not go unnoticed this is doubly true for a military state.

Three, a military government with large fleets moving around imposing military taxes (The only taxes we know of see Striker right Hans?) or even imposing "Zones" around worlds requires a huge indoctrination/propaganda system. The best forms of this starts young in schools. You would have a two tier systems one for the average citizen to teach them to be good workers and good soldiers. These schools will focus on legend/folk story building.( George Washington never told a lie, crossing of the Delaware, Guy Fox Day, Pieter Pietersen Heyn, tossed that last one in there for you Hans ) The second would be a private system that makes officers and leaders and scientist. Here you get trained on being proper/respectful so you learn to feel superior to the lower class. Picture Victorian era or 1940s/50s America not the modern education system focused on self expression.

Four, to maintain the power of the state there would also be many war memorials around the Imperium. People would be encouraged to join the military or merchant fleets to keep the Imperium alive. This means Imperial Cultural would be spread far and wide.

Five, this situation goes a long way to explaining the carrier focuses on military and space culture vs terra bound game play. Also the role of the players being heroic individuals against the faceless military complex is also justified by the image of a large propaganda full militaristic state.

 

[Timerover51]

Given that the citizens of 3I worlds would grow up knowing that their highest level of government IS the 3I and the ubiquity of knowledge and data due to computer access, it would be pretty impossible to NOT be aware of the major history points...

Having been teaching history for a while, the lack of knowledge on the part of US students regarding their country's history is quite depressing. When it comes to World History, there is an enormous gap when it comes to the Protestant Reformation and entire Reformation Era. The Greco-Roman period blurs into an amorphous blob.

I would argue that the vast number of Imperium citizens have no idea of major Imperium history points.

With respect to a common Imperium culture, consider the difference in culture between the East and West Coasts of the US verses the Midwest and Texas, and of course, Alaska.

 

[HG_B]

Having been teaching history for a while, the lack of knowledge on the part of US students

You must have taught a recent generation. It WASN'T always like that. In fact what you encountered is a fairly recent phenomenon. Not just in the area of history but, all subjects.

 

[Timerover51]

You must have taught a recent generation. It WASN'T always like that. In fact what you encountered is a fairly recent phenomenon. Not just in the area of history but, all subjects.

I am 62, with a degree in history. I have been teaching it since 2003. That is the case for students who were in junior high and high school since that time. We have had at least one student thrown out of class for correcting an instructor who was providing false information. I have had two children in school during the 1990s and since. Their history instruction for the most part was appalling. I see no reason to assert that the Imperium is going to be any different, if not considerably worse.

 

[Highorbit_drifter]

History is written by the winners, as somone once said.

How much a culture pays attention to its history depends a lot on how it sees itself. For example, a culture like the modern U.S. sees itself as apart and above the rest of the world, special and select. "Manifest Destiny" and "American exceptionalism". Aside from school there is little to no cultural awareness of anything not part of modern American culture; no second languages, no concept of geography, and no concept of history - since the past is just like another country.

On the other hand a culture that bases its strengths on tradition, no matter how non-sensical those traditions can become over time, divorced from their original setting, will have a very strong sense of history.

In a very general sense I would think Vilani cultural groups would have a strong senes of history, and know a lot about the various Imperiums, maybe even having to learn Emporer's lists in school. Probably don't know much about the Interstellar Wars and Terra, aside from the debacle of the Ramshackle Empire.

Solomani cultural groups would be more like America, if only in they see themselves as somehow 'special' and above the rest, with their own versions of manifest destiny. Not much history, aside from a gloried version of select Terran history (Roman empire, industrial revolution, big emphasis on the Interstellar Wars). Not a big amount of Third Imperium history aside from its failures.

Imperial cultural groups, if you can really define them out from the various, individual world cultures, would lay somewhere in between, since it would be composed of large parts Vilani, large parts Solomani. They know the major events of the Third Imperium, a select handful of famous Emperors, histories of the Zhodani or Solomani or Aslan wars, depending on what sector you are in.

Each world, and each culture on those worlds, would have their own take on those broad outlines.

 

[darue]

there's not been enough thought put into TL and planetary life. Beyond TL9 the ubiquity of cheap and plentiful fusion power renders the chief resource, energy... into a very cheap commodity. The next critical resource, access information and communications is also cheap, easy and ubiquitous. Computer/Robotics revolutionizes production, most items are likely manufactured in the city they're sold in, often built "on-demand." Most worlds provide their citizens with a guaranteed minimum income, because to not do so invites trouble and introduces totally unnecessary instability. People do not starve because a production facility closes. Most people are totally free to pursue education and cultural activities to whatever extent they desire. Knowledge, Skill and Education are the most prized and rewarded activities, whether it be in the Arts, Crafts, Sciences or Other Activities. A lot of time goes into assimilating new things from other worlds. This is the standard "interstellar society" the Imperium pushes worlds toward. Not all are quite there yet, some very far yet to go. The pushes are generally subtle, gentle, patient and some would say insidious. but everywhere there are communities and even whole worlds that organize themselves differently. most anything you can think of is out there somewhere. All those trillions of people are all going about their lives, for the most part happily. Our player characters are mostly people who want a little more and are willing to take more risks for whatever reason. Often enmeshed in "spacer" society more than any single planetary society.

While the War History would be a chief point to ensure broad awareness of, history of the previous attempts at interstellar civilization from the Ancients, the collapse of the ziru sirka, and collapse of the RoM, highlights on the greatest tragedies of the Long Night and the threats the imperium has already survived are also critical. Nobody wants to have to say, "I for one welcome our new Varger and Aslan overlords."

The general common knowledge is that the 3rd Imperium holds the flame that keeps the Night at bey.

 

[MCEvans]

IMO the only 'common' events that affected the whole Imperium are/were the conflicts and changes in the Palace. The reason is these were either sudden or long lasting. Other events did happen but the dissemination of the event would be slow and piecemeal over a period of time so that when the whole story is put together it seams normal and has always been that way.
The group that went through it, that was a major event and will be taught for several generations in that area and as the group spreads out will try to teach others the content of the change that they take for granted.

 

[grondak]

The general common knowledge is that the 3rd Imperium holds the flame that keeps the Night at bey.

I really like this sense of things, darue.

I've decided that a common theme of the Imperium (and a game like Traveller) is that people/characters want or need to go to space and travel (why else make a game called Traveller? We're not playing "lie around in bed all dayer," after all). The characters we make are almost all interested in the voyage and not just simply existing. I've rarely seen someone roll up a PC homebody. "No thanks, forget the stars, I'm going to sit at home and watch the holotube."

Adopting this general common knowledge in MTU means some people are culturally afraid of the long night. If you add the history items we have discussed to this core knowledge, then it could be that most travelers are aware of the fragility of interstellar culture and the technological and societal pain that loss of contact will bring. Look at how TNE portrays the worlds touched by the Civil War and Virus-- crushed, ruled by warlords, diseased or totally wiped out-- just like a Long Night Part 2.

This anxiety could be, for me and maybe MTU, a true rationale for having an Imperium at all. We're afraid of the dark.

 

[darue]

I really like this sense of things, darue.

I've decided that a common theme of the Imperium (and a game like Traveller) is that people/characters want or need to go to space and travel (why else make a game called Traveller? We're not playing "lie around in bed all dayer," after all). The characters we make are almost all interested in the voyage and not just simply existing. I've rarely seen someone roll up a PC homebody. "No thanks, forget the stars, I'm going to sit at home and watch the holotube."

Adopting this general common knowledge in MTU means some people are culturally afraid of the long night. If you add the history items we have discussed to this core knowledge, then it could be that most travelers are aware of the fragility of interstellar culture and the technological and societal pain that loss of contact will bring. Look at how TNE portrays the worlds touched by the Civil War and Virus-- crushed, ruled by warlords, diseased or totally wiped out-- just like a Long Night Part 2.

This anxiety could be, for me and maybe MTU, a true rationale for having an Imperium at all. We're afraid of the dark.

yeah, that's right on. and there's a lot of worlds out there beyond the borders (particularly to spinward) that can really benefit from a little assistance. I've been thinking (only so far) about writing up a campaign setting. The background setup would be approximately:

Some critical voices of influence in the Imperium feel that it's been sitting on it's laurels for too long. Getting fat, lazy and too happy to care. The Emperor has even taken notice of such rumblings and directed the "cubulax 9000 culture crunchers in the SitPit" ((situation room) psychohistory-like scenario analysis, far less capable than Seldon's techniques, but useful nonetheless) to run the numbers and look at possible outcomes. They did not like what they saw. A real possibility of a return to civil war within a generation or two. Combined with the "cold war" atmosphere to spinward with the zhodani in the aftermath of the 4th (or 5th depending on your timeline) Frontier War and the genuine need to move toward peaceful stable relations in the long term, a "new approach" was determined, one that would not look like the Navy stomping around forcing worlds into the imperium. A longer term light-touch approach was decided upon, to deal with the volatile situation of the Zhodani detente and to head off the malaise some see as a major problem for the 3rd I.

and so was born: the Citizens Outreach Board. Charged with coordinating private outreach efforts beyond the boarder as well as to poorly developed worlds within. A call has gone out to the citizens of the imperium, looking for spacers, doctors, engineers, administrators, diplomats, really anyone, who'd be willing to volunteer to go out and spread the benefits of civilization around. Teaching, building, etc.

Our particular adventurers find themselves hired on as part of the crew of a ship commissioned and built by a Nobel from say, Regina. A 3rd son or daughter, not in line to inherit the leadership role, this fellow's been long written off as a dilettante, but with the COB he's found a calling. Given the Emperors interest in this matter, the House has chosen to invest some serious money in setting up an expedition across the border. Much to the surprise of the players, another component of the ship is the Film Crew, sent along to document and glamorize the expedition and the mission of the COB, the resulting entertainment program will be seen on worlds all across the Imperium.

a reasonable Theme song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWX-C76VhCg

yes, this setting will have some Strugatsky-like elements, with the characters being sort of "Progressors" but it's also a good setting for good ol' Adventure stories, no doubt the occasional 7 samurai rip off will occur, with other ideas pulled from the rich tradition of episodic entertainment. Maybe a little "Worlds in Flight" type stuff too, not to mention findings of artifacts and other sorts of 'lost' items.

 

[HG_B]

I am 62, with a degree in history. I have been teaching it since 2003. That is the case for students who were in junior high and high school since that time. We have had at least one student thrown out of class for correcting an instructor who was providing false information. I have had two children in school during the 1990s and since. Their history instruction for the most part was appalling. I see no reason to assert that the Imperium is going to be any different, if not considerably worse.

Well, with an EDU systems as bad as the current US one, the Imperium would fall within 100 years. IF it would last even that long. Which is doubtful.

My kids were in school during the 90's also. I bypassed the problem and sent them to private schools. I saw it (the intentional destruction of the US public EDU system) starting in earnest during the 70's.


p.s. - Thanks for slugging it out in that thankless field.

 

[darue]

Well, with an EDU systems as bad as the current US one, the Imperium would fall within 100 years. IF it would last even that long. Which is doubtful.

My kids were in school during the 90's also. I bypassed the problem and sent them to private schools. I saw it (the intentional destruction of the US public EDU system) starting in earnest during the 70's.


p.s. - Thanks for slugging it out in that thankless field.

John Taylor Gatto fan?

 

[HG_B]

John Taylor Gatto fan?

Who?

When you are older and have some life experience you can take another shot at your question.

 

[darue]

Who?

When you are older and have some life experience you can take another shot at your question.

well, he's talked a lot about the educational issues you mentioned, you might be interested in his output, check it out.

see the 'Main thesis' section... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto

 

[Flying Dutchman]

History, such as it is...

Interesting thread so far. Here's my take:

1. Most people will have a general knowledge of how the Imperium works in relation to how they are supposed to interact with it. That is, how to behave around royalty, what powers they have over a world or a citizen and how it is empowered to levy taxes and fees. A ditch digger on a low-tech backwater world would know virtually nothing (since he might never encounter the Imperium or a member of the Moot in his entire life), while a merchant starship captain would have a much better grasp of the subject (since he would have dealings with the Imperium and its agencies on a regular basis). A member of the Moot will know all details of how the Imperium is supposed to work since it is such a major part of his life. (It is always a fun role-playing experience to have a recently elevated character having to learn the ropes of Imperial Moot politics as part of an adventure.)

2. Most people will have been taught (to varying degrees) about how the Third Imperium was founded, including the necessary pre-history leading up to its founding. (As any teacher will tell you, retention of such facts and concepts varies considerably between individuals.) Using my own history knowledge as a guide, I would say most people would remember the highlights but not necessarily the motivations or details.

3. Depending on location, most people will know about interstellar conflicts that have directly or indirectly affected their world. If a significant number of the planetary population participated in and/or died in a particular conflict, there will, no doubt, be monuments and memorials to their sacrifice in numerous locations, which will serve as reminders.

4. Most people will know about the major races, along with any minor races within the sector/domain, especially if they are space-faring. The amount of detail will be limited, but given how fascinated we are with aliens in our entertainment media, I would say a fair amount of interest would generated in the schools of the Imperium on this subject.

5. EVERYONE on Imperial worlds will be taught about the psionic suppression and the penalties for employing parapsychological abilities. I would imagine there would be Imperial representatives visiting each world on a regular basis to drive that point home to the local government(s) so they may effectively teach that point to their citizens and youth. (Only the Zhodani have psionic powers IMTU.)

Very thought-provoking! Thanks for bringing it up!

 

[GrayPennell]

I've been thinking about jump drives and starships as we talk about the value of jump 4 drives. Conventional wisdom discusses as ships. This time I am going to throw in cars. Jump 1 seems to be like a large pickup or the boats you see at the marina. They are perfectly suited for the mains and deep spacers will feel swarmed by them if they are on the main. Jump two, obviously works best at connecting mains or reaching those few plants just outside the mains. They would be as common as u-hauls or delivery trucks. Th development of jump 3 really expanded the Imperium. There are few places these ships cannot reach. These are your cruises ships, container ships, or 18 wheelers and busses. Jump 4 are great idea but there just isn't a need for them. Jump 3 will get you most places and you really need jump 5 and 6 to get across the rifts. Having a jump 4 ship is like having a Range Rover or Humve in downtown Paris, everyone thinks you'r a fool. Jump 5 is definitely where the Imperial navy is striving to reach. These are BMW and Mercedes or warships. Jump 6 is so new and high-tech only the most important and wealthy have them. These are the Lamborghini and mega yachts of the rich and powerful.

 

[rancke]

Jump-1 is useful for mains only if no higher jump rating is available. J2 and J3 are cheaper than J1 across any distance longer than 1 parsec, so J1 will mostly be used for jumping back and forth between worlds one parsec apart (and for microjumps)[*]. J4 is more expensive than J2 and J3, so would be used only for time-sensitive cargo. It's not that much more expensive though, so would be used extensively for passenger traffic between worlds with sufficiently high populations. J5 and J6 is quite a lot more expensive, so they would mostly be used by multi-billionaires and government official and corporate bigwigs. But high-population worlds have quite a lot of those.

[*] This doesn't account for the odd old paid-up free trader that can afford to be inefficient because the bank payments are lower or non-existent. Such ships have other problems though.​

Hans

 

[Timerover51]

I've been thinking about jump drives and starships as we talk about the value of jump 4 drives. Conventional wisdom discusses as ships. This time I am going to throw in cars. Jump 1 seems to be like a large pickup or the boats you see at the marina. They are perfectly suited for the mains and deep spacers will feel swarmed by them if they are on the main. Jump two, obviously works best at connecting mains or reaching those few plants just outside the mains. They would be as common as u-hauls or delivery trucks. Th development of jump 3 really expanded the Imperium. There are few places these ships cannot reach. These are your cruises ships, container ships, or 18 wheelers and busses. Jump 4 are great idea but there just isn't a need for them. Jump 3 will get you most places and you really need jump 5 and 6 to get across the rifts. Having a jump 4 ship is like having a Range Rover or Humve in downtown Paris, everyone thinks you'r a fool. Jump 5 is definitely where the Imperial navy is striving to reach. These are BMW and Mercedes or warships. Jump 6 is so new and high-tech only the most important and wealthy have them. These are the Lamborghini and mega yachts of the rich and powerful.

I guess I view Jump-4 ships as more of a Jump-2 ship that can jump again without refueling if need be, like jumping into a system and then discovering that someone who you may have a disagreement with is already there, and departing immediately is a pretty good idea.

 

[rancke]

I guess I view Jump-4 ships as more of a Jump-2 ship that can jump again without refueling if need be, like jumping into a system and then discovering that someone who you may have a disagreement with is already there, and departing immediately is a pretty good idea.

A J2 ship with double tankage would be cheaper for that purpose. I think the main purpose of a jump-4 ship would be to jump four parsecs.


Hans