Close Shave
- Thread starter Vargas
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I had a few players whom were also avid CyberPunk players. It seems that in their CP game they have a device called a "coily"... which is basically a big yarn ball of mono-wire compressed under high tension. Flip the catch and give it a toss... "poof", instant mono-wire barrier.
Mono-wire is supposedly a strand of material one molecule thick, and is held together by the bonding forces between its constituent molecules. The arguement goes that these bonding forces are much stronger than anything in the macroscopic world. This would make the material very good for slicing objects and opponents into fine little chunks.
A very munchkin device IMHO, not that it will stop me from using it if I ever play in one of their games!
I refused to allow it in Traveller for several reasons:
1. The main hole in the theory of mono-wire is that all macroscopic objects are held together by the same forces that supposedly hold the mono-wire together. Stresses are based on the distribution of force over the wire's cross section (which in this case is "infinitely small" for most purposes). This means that one good yank will snap the wire.
Based on that, and barring super tech (which I wasn't going to allow anyway) mono-wire would be far to weak to hold any weight. Sure, it would be fine for slicing objects apart... but it would also rupture often and easilly.
2. You wouldn't actually be able to see the stuff... if you could, it would appear hazy and wispy, like smoke. This makes it inherrently a bad weapon to USE as well as to get hit with.
3. How do you keep mono-wire in a container (and under tension) without it slicing through the container (and your hand) when you throw the stuff?
4. It just didn't fit with my view of the Traveller universe.
I imagine that if one of them comes up with a sufficiently convincing hand waive for the stuff I may change my mind later.
Mono-wire is supposedly a strand of material one molecule thick, and is held together by the bonding forces between its constituent molecules. The arguement goes that these bonding forces are much stronger than anything in the macroscopic world. This would make the material very good for slicing objects and opponents into fine little chunks.
A very munchkin device IMHO, not that it will stop me from using it if I ever play in one of their games!
I refused to allow it in Traveller for several reasons:
1. The main hole in the theory of mono-wire is that all macroscopic objects are held together by the same forces that supposedly hold the mono-wire together. Stresses are based on the distribution of force over the wire's cross section (which in this case is "infinitely small" for most purposes). This means that one good yank will snap the wire.
Based on that, and barring super tech (which I wasn't going to allow anyway) mono-wire would be far to weak to hold any weight. Sure, it would be fine for slicing objects apart... but it would also rupture often and easilly.
2. You wouldn't actually be able to see the stuff... if you could, it would appear hazy and wispy, like smoke. This makes it inherrently a bad weapon to USE as well as to get hit with.
3. How do you keep mono-wire in a container (and under tension) without it slicing through the container (and your hand) when you throw the stuff?
4. It just didn't fit with my view of the Traveller universe.
I imagine that if one of them comes up with a sufficiently convincing hand waive for the stuff I may change my mind later.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
...that the slight breeze sends merrily bouncing and slicing right back at and through said CP party
Yep, aways thought the same, however, and my memory may be slipping (may?) I recall a few fiction bits where it was short, braided, spun mono-filiment, a few (hundred, thousand, ?) filiments. Still ultra thin, barely visible, and sharp enough to slice anything, used in a whip like motion (could be from Shadowrun, or a few sources, possibly even bits from my own twisted brain). Still not sure it'd be effective due to the light weight.
Like (synapses dying again) Larry Nivens (?) "angel hair". As I recall it was created in the air and fell to earth, ghostly slicing anthing between it and the ground. I hadn't considered the near invisibility aspect of it in use though. Course I've never used or would likely allow its use in a game.
Unobtanium of course! Well, it might be a magnetic or gravitic bottle if you need "real" science.
I don't know, it makes a fine Ancient artifact for the characters to "discover"
"Hey guys. Look at this smoke in the corner, there's no fire and its IR sig is background level, wierd huh. Ahhh, my hand, its shredded my hand, I just touched it..."
Oops, hope I haven't given them ideas or made some arguments for them, at least you'll have time to prepare counter arguments, and you can always spring the last idea on them as a first strike.
Thorog the Slasher
SOC-5
I might put some IMTU, just on the off-chance that one of the players picks it up...much like he tried to pick up a grey ooze last week in the D&D campaign...
<<Shudders>> Ouch! Bet that left a mark!
BTW, I believe the story in which Niven used mono-wire was "Ringworld"... and it was used to hold the dark (or night) panels together above the ring... the protagonist's ship flew through the wire when they crashed... the wire then floated down to the surface.
Niven used the "monofilament" lines in a number of Known Space stories.
You could get something similar to "monofilament" by using macroscopic length carbon nanotubes. Carbon nano-tubes are a cylinder of carbon atoms in a hexagon array, similar to graphite except in sheets. The stuff is amazingly tough, quite capable of supporting several tons. It won't let you slice things like a magic ginsu knife though.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Yep that sounds like what I was trying to recall, thanks for filling in some missing neurons. I'm still not sure where I saw the term "angel-hair" applied to it though.
Zolomion Shoul
SOC-3
Our view and application of monowire weapons is a bit different:these were real blades with the monowire stuff being placed on their cutting edge(s). This also meant that you were obliged to slash, not puncture to benefit from the slicing ability of the monowire.
It also responded to most objections you raised regarding toughness, visibility, fragility, and so on.
However I disregard the idea of the ball that would transform into a wall: it doesn't even make sense ! If you have ever tried to fold a standard rope, so that it unfolds a certain way you simply do not even think about doing this with a ultra-thin, quasi-invisible material !
Question: what is IMTU ? thanks !
It also responded to most objections you raised regarding toughness, visibility, fragility, and so on.
However I disregard the idea of the ball that would transform into a wall: it doesn't even make sense ! If you have ever tried to fold a standard rope, so that it unfolds a certain way you simply do not even think about doing this with a ultra-thin, quasi-invisible material !
Question: what is IMTU ? thanks !
DaveShayne
SOC-12
In my Traveller Universe. How things work in my game. You may do things differently.
Contrast with,
IYTU = In Your Traveller Universe. How things work in your game. I may do things differently
OTU = Official Traveller Universe. How things work in the game as written. Almost everyone does some of this differently (but almost no one does the same things differently in the same way hence MTU and YTU)
GTU = Gurps Traveller Universe. How things work in the Gurps Traveller universe.
We will shortly need a new one for the T20 Traveller Universe.
I'll start the process off by nominating DTU for D20 Traveller Universe. YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I'll suggest "20TU" , say it as twenty-two. Have you given this any thought yet Hunter? Perhaps this topic will get more notice in the lounge. I'll post a copy up there.
N.I.C.E. Labs
SOC-12
In regards to Niven's monowire, I'd allow that in my campaigns, though the situation hasn't really come up as yet.
If memory serves, at least with 'Niven wire' it was just that the wire was one molecule thick, it was one molecule. A tremendously long molecule, granted but a single one just the same. Still one molecule thick so it has the cutting ability, but since it's one molecule you aren't dealing with molecular shearing forces, but atomic. That's where it's strength comes from.
Except for Protector or slaver (in Traveller terms Ancients) wire which cut anything and everything most of the time wire used as a weapon was in the form of variable swords, monomolecular line held rigid in a stasis field. That's the thing that would cut through anything...except another variable sword blade or a General Products Hull ^_^
He also used Sinclair Molecule Chain. I think it was monomolecular too, but several strands woven into chain...Very strong...not sharp but useful for all chain type tasks. It also had a side effect of being a tremendous superconductor.... Used in Ringworld and several other places if memory serves....
If memory serves, at least with 'Niven wire' it was just that the wire was one molecule thick, it was one molecule. A tremendously long molecule, granted but a single one just the same. Still one molecule thick so it has the cutting ability, but since it's one molecule you aren't dealing with molecular shearing forces, but atomic. That's where it's strength comes from.
Except for Protector or slaver (in Traveller terms Ancients) wire which cut anything and everything most of the time wire used as a weapon was in the form of variable swords, monomolecular line held rigid in a stasis field. That's the thing that would cut through anything...except another variable sword blade or a General Products Hull ^_^
He also used Sinclair Molecule Chain. I think it was monomolecular too, but several strands woven into chain...Very strong...not sharp but useful for all chain type tasks. It also had a side effect of being a tremendous superconductor.... Used in Ringworld and several other places if memory serves....
Even mollecular bonds break. In fact, a good portion of the breaking strength of most materials involves shearing across not just intergranular voids, but also intragranular. (In other words, when you break something, some of what you are breaking is the constituent mollecules or crystals.) When macroscopic forces are applied across a cross section of one molecule, the breaking stresses are practically infinate.
Don't get me wrong, it's a very cool idea. But it requires a much "stonger" hand waive IMHO than just mollecular bond strength. Like I said before, it just depends on which beliefs you're willing to suspend for the game.
Of course, there are all those nifty ancient technologies out there which could be used to pull this off... field reinforced molecules... hummmm....
Now, the stasis field idea is just plain *nasty*. If you allow monowire and you allow stasis fields, you could very easily invent the lightsaber. Just hole the wire in a "spool" in the handle and pay it out with the field when you turn the thing on. <shudder>
N.I.C.E. Labs
SOC-12
I'm not sure what you mean in regards to infinite macroscopic forces, but what I was getting at was something you mention...breaking something apart shears them at the molecular bonds...since this is made up of a single molecular there are no molecular bonds...only atomic. Atomic bonds are much harder to break.
Yep, the variable swords are nasty...not omnipotent, but nasty. The Kzinti in Niven's Known Space series loved 'em <G> It was basically that...a handle with a spool of molecule wire. At the end of the wire was a small ball cap (mainly so you'd know where the end of the blade was...it was invisible beyond that. Just hit between the ball and handle and that's that.
Molecular bond = covalent bond in most chemistry texts. Non-metals bond covalently most of the time. Metals bond in ionic crystals. Since molecules or crystals are composed of atoms which bond to each other to form the molecule or crystal, the molecule is held together by inter-atomic bonds. Hence, the "molecular bond" as I described it was in reference to the covalent bonds. Sorry about that, I should have been more clear.
Inter-mollecular bonds are quite weak by comparison, so you are correct there. Those normally take the form of "hydrogen bonds" and other weak polar forces. (none of which are actually *bonds* in the strictest sence.)
As to the other point:
Material science and strength of materials basically boils down to two principles:
1. Stress = force/area (cross section of the wire in this case, or about two atomic diameters depending on the shape of the molecule.)
2. If the stress in the material is greater than its strength, the material breaks.
The atomic and mollecular bonds are VERY strong, but the wire is for all intents and purposes *infinitely* thin. (Not really, but in the *macroscopic* world of guns and knives, one or two atoms in width might as well be.)
Regardless of how strong atomic bonds are, they still have a breaking strength, and it is not infinite. In fact, atomic bonds are routinely broken in highschool chemistry classes. All it takes is a more favorable element to bond to or a bit of heat.
For example: I believe that an Iron-Iron bond has a width of 250 picometers (10^-12 meters) and has a bond strength of 75kJ/mol (or about 1.24x10^-19 J per bond). You can get that sort of energy from a butane lighter.
This normaly isn't an issue, because you have to heat the entire lump of iron to get at one bond.
The same is not true of mono-wire. In mono-wire you only have to break *one* bond.
In real wire, you have to break all the bonds (strong and weak) in the cross section. Since the tear usually follows the path of least resistance, most of those bonds are inter-mollecular or intercrystaline rather than the stronger intra-crystaline bonds.
Practically any impact related shearing force exerted over an area that small will almost certainly run any cheap calculator into memory overflow. In engineering parlance, that would be a practically infinite stress level (or big enough that it might as well be).
Even if the impact didn't break the bonds, the heat increase from the vibration would almost certainly be enough.
I'm not saying that the stuff can't exist... only that bond strength is not enough to justify its use. Of course, Niven's stasis fields might just be the ticket. If memory serves, didn't Mr. Wu's ship take a hit in the form of a solar flare... and survive it because of an automated stasis field?
Wow. I've got to go outside and play ball with my kids or something. I'm starting to sound like a chemistry professor. I hope I don't seem too put-offish... I just enjoy a good debate.
BTW, I hope for the sake of your players that you don't let your Aslan unlanded class have those things! Seeing those things in action would scare the army out of me!
Ballistics on this would be crap. But taking your idea and running with it, you fire a small grav driven micro-missile that trails a monofilament
When it reaches max range it stops and hovers 3 feet off the ground. Area denial! You fire one of these babies along your trench line (remembering to tell your own guys). Then let the enemy charge your position, feign a full scale retreat and giggle yourself stupid as the enemy force suddenly starts pulling a Darth Maul
